Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think the mistake you're making here is assuming that the Irish language is a significant issue in this election. It isn't. It's a trivial sideshow at best. Enda Kenny has far bigger problems to deal with right now than than one. The biggest issue lately has been the differences in policy between Labour and Fine Gael (which FF are desperately trying to exploit). That, and Enda avoiding the media.

Well there is going to be a protest on Monday that will put the Irish language and FG's ridiculous wobbling on center stage, if only for a day.


Irish is an area of difference in policy between FG and Lab.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Well there is going to be a protest on Monday that will put the Irish language and FG's ridiculous wobbling on center stage, if only for a day.

Great, it this going to be the same 150 people who showed up outside Enda's office earlier in the week? You know for a guy who is so scared ****less of an old hack like Vincent Browne, he sure as hell didn't have any problem facing an angry mob of Irish speakers outside his own door who thought they could intimidate him into submission.

Irish is an area of difference in policy between FG and Lab.

Fine. Now see how many people in this country really care about that one issue? I understand that Irish is your hobby horse. You're passionate about that. It looms large in your world. Meanwhile, the rest of the country is worried about losing their jobs, and being in debt for the next 20 or 30 years. Do you honestly think that one issue is going to be a decisive factor in this election? Sure, FG might lose a few votes among the hardcore nationalist crowd, or among a few Irish teachers for that matter. But most of them are never going to vote blueshirt in the first place.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Great, it this going to be the same 150 people who showed up outside Enda's office earlier in the week? You know for a guy who is so scared ****less of an old hack like Vincent Browne, he sure as hell didn't have any problem facing an angry mob of Irish speakers outside his own door who thought they could intimidate him into submission.

A few more than that are expected, 1000 have said they are going on the protests face book page, if even half turn up it will be a good showing

Fine. Now see how many people in this country really care about that one issue? I understand that Irish is your hobby horse. You're passionate about that. It looms large in your world. Meanwhile, the rest of the country is worried about losing their jobs, and being in debt for the next 20 or 30 years. Do you honestly think that one issue is going to be a decisive factor in this election? Sure, FG might lose a few votes among the hardcore nationalist crowd, or among a few Irish teachers for that matter. But most of them are never going to vote blueshirt in the first place.

It will put FG under pressure, It will be harder for them to implement their policy's if they can be shown to be unpopular.

Anyway, I expect a FG/Labour Government, and Labour has made its stance on the matter clear



The facebook page 'Keep an Ghaeilge as a Core Leaving Cert Subject' has gotten 6000 members in the 6 days since it was started.

Thats nearly twice as much as Enda has on his page.

aidan24326

deise go deo wrote: »

Enda must have taught it would be a vote winner. As you can see in this thread, there are people who would be only to happy for Irish to be down graded.

However it seams that it has back fired. It was back in 05 when Kenny first came up with the Idea of making Irish optional in Second Level,
Enda is still trying to get this (Watered down version) idea through but oppisition to it is just growing.

But Enda is absolutely right to raise this issue. The issue of how Irish is taught in our school curriculum most certainly does need to be looked at.

I'm just surprised that he brought it up now as though it were an election issue (it isn't)

But even as a gaelgeoir you can't deny that how Irish is taight in schools right now is all wrong. We have kids 'learning' Irish in school for 13 years and still not knowing much by the end of it. Change the curriculum radically and you might, just might, get kids interetsed. When I did LC honours Irish we had to do rubbish like Peig and Scothscealta, about as interesting as watching paint dry.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

A few more than that are expected, 1000 have said they are going on the protests face book page, if even half turn up it will be a good showing





It will put FG under pressure, It will be harder for them to implement their policy's if they can be shown to be unpopular.

Anyway, I expect a FG/Labour Government, and Labour has made its stance on the matter clear



The facebook page 'Keep an Ghaeilge as a Core Leaving Cert Subject' has gotten 6000 members in the 6 days since it was started.

Thats nearly twice as much as Enda has on his page.

This is Facebook after all, so I would think you would be lucky to get 10% of that. 600 people don't exactly represent the views of the entire country.

Given Eamon Gilmore's recent performances, I wouldn't be surprised if FG actually gets an overall majority. So we'll see where that strategy gets him.

deise go deo

aidan24326 wrote: »

But Enda is absolutely right to raise this issue. The issue of how Irish is taught in our school curriculum most certainly does need to be looked at.

I'm just surprised that he brought it up now as though it were an election issue (it isn't)

But even as a gaelgeoir you can't deny that how Irish is taight in schools right now is all wrong. We have kids 'learning' Irish in school for 13 years and still not knowing much by the end of it. Change the curriculum radically and you might, just might, get kids interetsed. When I did LC honours Irish we had to do rubbish like Peig and Scothscealta, about as interesting as watching paint dry.

I agree fully, I have never once denied that there is a problem with how Irish is taught. There needs to be major curriculum reform.

There needs to be discussion and If Enda wants to sit down and discuss the future of the language then CnaG and all the rest of the Irish language movement would be happy to have a discussion with him.

The protest is against the fact that Enda just wants to go ahead and Make Irish optional with no discussion. There is hardly any point in having an 'audit' as he says he will if the conclusion has already been reached.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

This is Facebook after all, so I would think you would be lucky to get 10% of that. 600 people don't exactly represent the views of the entire country.

Given Eamon Gilmore's recent performances, I wouldn't be surprised if FG actually gets an overall majority. So we'll see where that strategy gets him.

Ya, I know its Facebook, I wouldn't count on 6 until I actually see them, But there is a strong and active Irish language youth movement in Dublin.

In UCD, the Cumann Gaelach has 2000+ members. In Trinity there are a further 900+. That is only two University's. There are several more smaller Cumann Gaelachs around the City.

There are thousands of Kids in Gaelscoils in Dublin. They will be in school, but their parents wont.

FF and proud

deise go deo wrote: »

Most FG candidates dont seem to know what is going on, The statements made in that document by FG contradict others made today by James Reilly TD.

Candidates criticizing party line in the middle of an election is cause for concern for Enda.

That is one of the reasons I have always voted for Fianna Fail, they have always stood by the language against all odds.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Ya, I know its Facebook, I wouldn't count on 6 until I actually see them, But there is a strong and active Irish language youth movement in Dublin.

In UCD, the Cumann Gaelach has 2000+ members. In Trinity there are a further 900+. That is only two University's. There are several more smaller Cumann Gaelachs around the City.

There is also a strong socialist movement in those universities as well. Yet I rarely see more than a few hundred of them outside the Dail at any given protest, and the old farts inside the Dail are more than happy to ignore them.
Not that there will be many politicians around anyway. Most of them will be out and about canvassing.

There are thousands of Kids in Gaelscoils in Dublin. They will be in school, but their parents wont.

Don't they have any jobs to go to?

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

There is also a strong socialist movement in those universities as well. Yet I rarely see more than a few hundred of them outside the Dail at any given protest, and the old farts inside the Dail are more than happy to ignore them.
Not that there will be many politicians around anyway. Most of them will be out and about canvassing.

The old farts Might ignore the Protest, but the media wont. Thats the important thing.

Don't they have any jobs to go to?

No, You can blame FF for that:P

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I will not, I said that I will talk to CnaG about it and ask them to clarify their position and I will.

You cannot make a simple quote from a dictionary without making a spelling mistake, you never spell check your posts.

How could anyone trust you to 'clarify' a clearly stated policy of CnaG and accurately report on what they might say?

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

Because it always has been. At least since the textile and heavy industries died off in the latter half of the 20th century.

The north has changed dramatically since the end of the troubles and the whole economic structure of the entire Island would change in a UI, two things you don't seem to be taking into account. Looking at the situation today (or 15 years ago) and using these numbers to decide on the financial cost/situation of a UI is not valid.

That might be the case for Labour. But given their history, FG are practically anti-UI anyway. Either way, it doesn't have an impact on voters, and it never has.

The point is they are not anti.
Also the party most connected with a UI has been growing in strength for years and looks set to dramatically gain in the upcoming election.
Anyway this talk of a UI is quite off topic and should be kept to another thread.

I think you're being a tad disingenuous here. The entire country is not as busy as you so ludicrously attempt to claim here. It's not like there are plenty of people who spend hours a week doing sports training, going to the gym, golfing, playing xbox, stamp collecting or various other activities/hobbies. If Irish is not at the top of people's needs or priorities, then maybe the general public just isn't that interested in it to begin with.

Language shift comes from the bottom up, ie the children.

I've seen plenty of statistics posted here, a lot of which doesn't amount to much. But none that addressed your specific point here: that there has been a wholesale change in attitudes among young people towards the language in recent years, that Irish is now cool, and no longer the "language of boggers".

No I don't have facts and figures for this particular point.
The changes in Irish society between say 1975 and 2011 are quite self evident to anyone who witnessed them.
Just look at what say Riverdance did for the image of Irish dancing, What bands like The Pogues did for the music and the advent of TG4 for the language. Anyone with eyes and ears must be aware of this change.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You cannot make a simple quote from a dictionary without making a spelling mistake, you never spell check your posts.

The Library I am in normally dosent have spell check for some reason. Its what I say not how I spell it that is important.

How could anyone trust you to 'clarify' a clearly stated policy of CnaG and accurately report on what they might say?

What would I have to gain by Lying about it? I know for a fact that the aim is bi-lingualism.

But even if you are right, even if the aim is Mono-lingual Irish speaking, You have to go through Bi-lingualism to get there. Given that Bi-lingualism is proven to be beneficial, why would people who become bilingual not pass it on to their kids?
What reason would people have for going from Bilingual Irish and English to Irish only?

eoinbn

deise go deo:

Why are you so worried about this? If there is so much interest in the Irish language then why does it have to be forced upon people? ~60k sit the leaving cert each year and if that poll is to be believe at least 36k will continue to take it if it is made optional. Why are you against having a choice on this?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

The Library I am in normally dosent have spell check for some reason. Its what I say not how I spell it that is important.

Poor spelling makes a bad impression.

deise go deo wrote: »

What would I have to gain by Lying about it? I know for a fact that the aim is bi-lingualism.

Whether or not you have lied depends on whether or not you said something, knowing it to be untrue. Perhaps, you're not familiar with Conradh na Gaeilge and its aims?

deise go deo wrote: »

No one want Irish to Replace English.

Now, this is what is stated on the Conradh na Gaelge web site:

Conradh na Gaeilge is the democratic forum for the Irish-speaking community and promotes the language throughout the whole of Ireland and around the world. Is main aim is to reinstate the Irish language as the common tongue of Ireland.

Since, English is the common tongue of Ireland, it is clear that the intention is to replace English as the common tongue.

Your statement that no one wants to replace English is completely untrue: an organisation that claims to represent all Irish language enthusiasts has exactly that as its goal.

MysticalRain

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The point is they are not anti.
Also the party most connected with a UI has been growing in strength for years and looks set to dramatically gain in the upcoming election.
Anyway this talk of a UI is quite off topic and should be kept to another thread.

Correlation does not equal causation. SF's increased popularity these days has less to do with their support for a UI (which they have become less zealous about in recent years anyway), than their exploitation of a backlash against the right-wing economic policies of the current government.

Language shift comes from the bottom up, ie the children.

That's only part of the strategy. All that the current system does is force-feed the language to a bunch of children, many of whom end up despising the language anyway. Once they finish school, 95% of of students will never speak Irish again. So it's ultimately a wasted effort. Perhaps the focus should be diverted towards teaching people who actually want to learn it whatever their ages are.

No I don't have facts and figures for this particular point.
The changes in Irish society between say 1975 and 2011 are quite self evident to anyone who witnessed them.

I have been in school or college for a large proportion of that time, and the general consensus I found was Irish was largely irrelevant to our culture and that keeping it compulsory at second level only did the language more harm than good. But of course your anecdotal evidence trumps mine doesn't it?

Just look at what say Riverdance did for the image of Irish dancing, What bands like The Pogues did for the music and the advent of TG4 for the language. Anyone with eyes and ears must be aware of this change.

The obvious difference here is that Irish dancing and trad music are not forced down the throats of people. They succeed on their own merits without the need for any state coercion.
If the Irish language has as much genuine support as you seem to think it has, then there should be no detrimental long term effects to making it optional for the last two years of second level. At that point, either students want to learn the language, or they don't. Forcing them to learn it for another 2 years is unlikely to change their attitude towards the language, and probably does more harm than good.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Whether or not you have lied depends on whether or not you said something, knowing it to be untrue. Perhaps, you're not familiar with Conradh na Gaeilge and its aims?

Now, this is what is stated on the Conradh na Gaelge web site:

Since, English is the common tongue of Ireland, it is clear that the intention is to replace English as the common tongue.

Your statement that no one wants to replace English is completely untrue: an organisation that claims to represent all Irish language enthusiasts has exactly that as its goal.

I may have found the problem, The piece you quoted is only a translation.

This would be the origional.

Is í príomhaidhm na heagraíochta an Ghaeilge a athréimniú mar ghnáththeanga na hÉireann.

Gnáth means Ordinary

'ghnáththeanga' means ordinary language. The aim is to restore Irish as an ordinary language of Ireland.

This is compatible with Bilingualism.;)

deise go deo

It seams that there is growing concern in FG over Enda's Policy.

Irish Times Letters

Madam, – It may be Valentine’s Day next Monday but the leader of Fine Gael will not be winning the hearts of those who support the Irish language.

While loved-up couples across Ireland will be exchanging chocolates and teddy bears, the Union of Students of Ireland will be holding a silent protest outside an empty Dáil against a political party which is deaf to their concerns.

As a member of that party, I hang my head in shame.

In his new book, Dr John Walsh critically examines the social and economic development of Irish in recent times. Recently he stated that making Irish an optional subject for the Leaving Certificate would have dire consequences for the language. As a renowned scholar of socio-linguistics surely his word carries more weight than a party-political policy that came to life without any substantial research worth mentioning.

As an active member of Young Fine Gael I too will be outside the Dáil next Monday. The question of the Irish language is bigger than party politics and so long as Fine Gael remains determined to make Irish an optional Leaving Certificate subject then I will have no choice but to remain ashamed of our policy on the Irish language. – Yours, etc,

MICHAEL CLANCY,
Deputy-International Secretary,
Young Fine Gael,

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

Correlation does not equal causation. SF's increased popularity these days has less to do with their support for a UI (which they have become less zealous about in recent years anyway), than their exploitation of a backlash against the right-wing economic policies of the current government.

Their popularity in the rebublic began before the **** hit the fan here.

That's only part of the strategy. All that the current system does is force-feed the language to a bunch of children, many of whom end up despising the language anyway. Once they finish school, 95% of of students will never speak Irish again. So it's ultimately a wasted effort. Perhaps the focus should be diverted towards teaching people who actually want to learn it whatever their ages are.

You're not very good at continuing with a point I see.
Language shift happens from the bottom up hence the gaelscoileanna, and this will continue. If the next government "gets the finger out" and improves the present curriculum then the general school system should start producing better Irish speakers also. This is how these things happen.

I have been in school or college for a large proportion of that time, and the general consensus I found was Irish was largely irrelevant to our culture and that keeping it compulsory at second level only did the language more harm than good. But of course your anecdotal evidence trumps mine doesn't it?

I really doubt the people you spoke to and hung out with at school would have been indicative of the population at large, at that age people tend to stick among their own social group, also most people don't realise the value of Irish (and a hell of a lot of other things) until they have grown up.

The obvious difference here is that Irish dancing and trad music are not forced down the throats of people. They succeed on their own merits without the need for any state coercion.
If the Irish language has as much genuine support as you seem to think it has, then there should be no detrimental long term effects to making it optional for the last two years of second level. At that point, either students want to learn the language, or they don't. Forcing them to learn it for another 2 years is unlikely to change their attitude towards the language, and probably does more harm than good.

I have full confidence Irish can "stand on its own two feet" that is why, as I have said numerous times in this thread, I would have no problem with it being made optional after the junior cert.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I may have found the problem, The piece you quoted is only a translation.

You mean to say, that for 117 years, the objectives of Conradh na Gaeilge have been mis-translated in English? That an organisation with thousands of well-educated members cannot correctly express its main aim in the English language version of its website? The grammar of the original statement is not very good....You're not their webmaster by any chance?

Gnáth can also mean 'customary' or 'usual'.

What does 'athréimniú' mean?

Has the an 'tuiseal ginideach' been used? I am sure you're aware of the implications for the use of the definite article in such cases.

Focalbhach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Poor spelling makes a bad impression.

So does obnoxiousness.

cyclopath2001

Leto wrote: »

So does obnoxiousness.

indeed, you are right. Forcing children to speak Irish against their will, that's pretty obnoxious.

Iwasfrozen

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

indeed, you are right. Forcing children to speak Irish against their will, that's pretty obnoxious.

Children don't know what they want, they're children for God's sake.

cyclopath2001

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Children don't know what they want, they're children for God's sake.

So, that makes them fair game for CnaG's cultural re-engineering project? Never mind, that as adults, they quickly put aside the compulsory Irish imposed on them and decide to speak only English. They've served their time in the compulsory Irish regime and The Language has exacted it's tribute from them....that's the system.

MysticalRain

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You're not very good at continuing with a point I see.
Language shift happens from the bottom up hence the gaelscoileanna, and this will continue. If the next government "gets the finger out" and improves the present curriculum then the general school system should start producing better Irish speakers also. This is how these things happen.

It obviously hasn't worked if that strategy has been tried for the last 80 odd years with little success. It's not as if the language hasn't been reformed multiple times before. Yet less people speak the language nowadays than did 80 years ago.

I really doubt the people you spoke to and hung out with at school would have been indicative of the population at large, at that age people tend to stick among their own social group, also most people don't realise the value of Irish (and a hell of a lot of other things) until they have grown up.

You can doubt all you like. Your words here are pure conjecture unless they are backed up with some kind of evidence beyond your own biased opinion on people's cultural outlook and the exact nature of their social circles.

Their popularity in the rebublic began before the **** hit the fan here.

I seem to recall their popularity taking a nose dive in the last election.

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

It obviously hasn't worked if that strategy has been tried for the last 80 odd years with little success. It's not as if the language hasn't been reformed multiple times before. Yet less people speak the language nowadays than did 80 years ago.

Since the attitude to the language has now changed (whether you believe it or not wont change this fact) and the education system has changed dramatically over the last 20-30 years (no more beating stuff into kids and improvements in teaching methods), it is the future that is important.

You are going on and on with this "picking of points" for the sake of it but not actually saying anything (which is very tedious in a debate), what is your point on this thread and what do you want to see regarding the Irish language that differs from what I do?

You can doubt all you like. Your words here are pure conjecture unless they are backed up with some kind of evidence beyond your own biased opinion on people's cultural outlook and the exact nature of their social circles.

Who would you think has a better view of life and society in general a well traveled adult or a school child??

I seem to recall their popularity taking a nose dive in the last election.

Not in the next though and that is what will actually matters.
Again you're running away from the point, ie if a political party made it clear they were against a UI it would be political suicide.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

if a political party made it clear they were against a UI it would be political suicide.

Similarly, standing up to CnaG and it's radical policy of changing the common language of Ireland is fraught with political risk.

kfdb

I've been following this thread and was wondering if the pro-compulsion side could answer a question for me. You often use the success and growth of the gaelscoilena movement as proof of a grassroots popularity for Irish.

Would you support a change in education policies that allowed similarly involved and motivated parents that *didn't* want their children to receive any instruction in Irish to found their own schools? Schools where (for example) all instruction might take place in Spanish with no Irish taught at all. I guess I'm wondering if parents that would like this have equal rights to parents that want to found an all Irish school?

Kreb.

MysticalRain

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Since the attitude to the language has now changed (whether you believe it or not wont change this fact) and the education system has changed dramatically over the last 20-30 years (no more beating stuff into kids and improvements in teaching methods), it is the future that is important.

It's not a "fact" to say people's attitudes to Irish have changed without backing it up with some kind of evidence. Otherwise all your post amounts to is some guys opinion on an Internet message board and should be treated as such.

We didn't have corporal punishment in our time either. But yet we still hated learning the language. If everybody loves Irish so much, then why does only 2% of the population speak it these days?

You are going on and on with this "picking of points" for the sake of it but not actually saying anything (which is very tedious in a debate), what is your point on this thread and what do you want to see regarding the Irish language that differs from what I do?

I have clearly stated several times in this thread, and elsewhere, that I do not favour compulsory Irish at second level. Certainly not beyond second year anyway. I have also stated that European languages should be taught alongside Irish at primary level. If Irish is to flourish, it should be allowed to succeed on its own merits without the need for excessive state coercion.

Who would you think has a better view of life and society in general a well traveled adult or a school child??

So what? I know plenty of adults who share similar attitudes, and most kids these days do quite a lot traveling anyway. Besides, we all live on a small island with a close-knit population. It's not that hard to get a feel for people's prevailing attitudes.

Not in the next though and that is what will actually matters.

Now you are avoiding my points.

Again you're running away from the point, ie if a political party made it clear they were against a UI it would be political suicide.

Yet another fact-free assertion based on your own opinion. If you are so sure, then why don't you provide some evidence?

Oasis_Dublin

MysticalRain wrote: »

Yet another fact-free assertion based on your own opinion. If you are so sure, then why don't you provide some evidence?

To be fair, no party in the south has ever declared themselves anti-UI and that in and of itself is proof enough. The fact that the intention of a UI is put on their websites shows that it is an important, even if it is not relevant at this time. The UUP, DUP or TUV don't run in the Dublin state for a reason!