Is Irish a dead language?

MysticalRain

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I do hope you're being sarcastic.

What the poll shows is that there are significant numbers of children being taught Irish against their will and that of their parents.

The Irish-language lobby no doubt considers this to be tolerable 'collateral damage' on the path to making Irish the common language of Ireland.

Exactly. Even going by their own polls, we are not talking about a huge decisive majority. I don't see how it's fair to tell 40% of the people to basically "get stuffed" and put up with it. It wouldn't make one iota of a difference to those who want to study Irish if it was made optional.

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

I'm sorry, are we having a wider discussing here about Irish culture in general, or are we discussing the Irish language? Perhaps you should start another thread about Irish culture if you wish to discuss that.

I made a comment about culture, you responded and I responded etc etc...

I'll be happy to post one here as soon as I a recent independent poll that isn't done by a group with a vested interest in plugging the language.

Go on then.

I think you are making a big assumption here in assuming that people's views of Irish will become more positive just because they get older.

Its no assumption, they often do.
There are numerous posts on this forum saying that very thing.

Actually if you knew anything at all about the GFA agreement, you already know that about a majority of Unionists voted for the GFA agreement because they genuinely believed it would solidify the union between NI and Britain. So while the nationalist community pretends that it brought them one step closer to a UI, the other side pretends otherwise. I can't see the Unionists changing their attitudes any time soon.

Read your own quote at the top of this post and exchange the words "Irish culture" for "a united Ireland". Tut tut. (you brought up a UI)
According to the GFA if a majority in the north vote for a UI we get a UI.
The Unionists don't have to change their attitudes only follow the democratic process.
Because of the ongoing demographic change in the north this is an inevitability.
You see nationalist tend to look to the future and (sadly) lots of Unionists only seem to look to the past and status quo.

Oasis_Dublin

MysticalRain wrote: »

Actually if you knew anything at all about the GFA agreement, you already know that about a majority of Unionists voted for the GFA agreement because they genuinely believed it would solidify the union between NI and Britain. So while the nationalist community pretends that it brought them one step closer to a UI, the other side pretends otherwise. I can't see the Unionists changing their attitudes any time soon.

It won't be in their hands soon enough so they can think what they want. The Irish and British governments as well as the Nationalist community accept the principle of consent. The Unionist community initially agreed but are now attempting to suggest that the consent should be from a majority of people from both communities rather than from a majority of people from the so-called state of Northern Ireland. Typical Unionist backtracking. Whether Ireland gets a United Ireland or simply more territory is a case of when not if.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Whether Ireland gets a United Ireland or simply more territory is a case of when not if.

Will the children of unionists be forced to learn Irish?

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

It won't be in their hands soon enough so they can think what they want. The Irish and British governments as well as the Nationalist community accept the principle of consent. The Unionist community initially agreed but are now attempting to suggest that the consent should be from a majority of people from both communities rather than from a majority of people from the so-called state of Northern Ireland. Typical Unionist backtracking. Whether Ireland gets a United Ireland or simply more territory is a case of when not if.

I wouldn't say a United Ireland is inevitable, sure if current trends continue the Catholics will soon exceed Protestants population wise but there is also a growing number of Catholics who are in favour of a maintained Union with Britain.

And of course the referendum must also be passed in the republic. Which may be harder to sell then you'd think considering the increased taxes southerners are going to have to pay to keep the nordies happy.

Iwasfrozen

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Will the children of unionists be forced to learn Irish?

Sure, as long as Oasis Dublin doesn't mind his children learning Ulster Scots.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Will the children of unionists be forced to learn Irish?

Well of course. The only reasonable thing to do is specifically force them to dance at the crossroads, join the GAA, become Catholic, drink loads... and of course, learn Irish.

Either that or we could use the legislation presently in place which says that those who haven't being learning Irish from a young age are exempt. Neither here or there anyway, won't be happening in the morning.

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sure, as long as Oasis Dublin doesn't mind his children learning Ulster Scots.

I'm not sure you understand the history of Irish!

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'm not sure you understand the history of Irish!

And I'm not sure you understand the statement. You can't expect Unionists to learn Irish if Nationalists aren't going to make the effort to speak Ulster Scots. And that goes for school as well.

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I wouldn't say a United Ireland is inevitable, sure if current trends continue the Catholics will soon exceed Protestants population wise but there is also a growing number of Catholics who are in favour of a maintained Union with Britain.

And of course the referendum must also be passed in the republic. Which may be harder to sell then you'd think considering the increased taxes southerners are going to have to pay to keep the nordies happy.

Of course there will be soup lickers, as I've already stated. However, opinion in Northern Ireland has polarised in recent times; nationalists vote in droves for two former members of the Supreme Council of the IRA. Surely that would make a United Ireland one of their main political objectives (that or criminality )

I still think a UI would pass here but it's hard to say; a referendum won't be taking place for a few years yet. Who knows what the condition of the economy will be by then.

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And I'm nto sure you understand the statement. You can't expect Unionists to learn Irish if Nationalists aren't going to make the effort to speak Ulster Scots. And that goes for school as well.

I'm pretty certain I just said Unionists would be exempt. Still, continue to misrepresent my opinion if it suits your argument mate!

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'm pretty certain I just said Unionists would be exempt. Still, continue to misrepresent my opinion if it suits your argument mate!

You said you'd exempt first generation Unionists, those that haven't been learning it from a young age. But what about the ones starting school that year?

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You said you'd exempt first generation Unionists, those that haven't been learning it from a young age. But what about the ones starting school that year?

Allow them to choose. Only fair considering their parents and their parents' parents haven't learned the language... unlike those of us in the Free State.

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Allow them to choose. Only fair considering their parents and their parents' parents haven't learned the language... unlike those of us in the Free State.

So one law for one person and another for another? I never liked Irish in school. I was offered excemption when I was twelve but turned it down though many of my friends who also hated it weren't given the option.

What's to stop these people claiming they were Unionists to get an excemption? All they would have to do is convince their parents to make one phonecall to the principal.

astrofool

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

... unlike those of us in the Free State.

But we don't get the freedom to choose?...

Focalbhach

Judgement Day wrote: »

This poll was commissioned by Comhar na Muinteoiri Gaeilge, Conradh na Gaeilge, Gael Linn, Gael-scoileanna agus Comhdhail Naisiunta na Gaeilge - so it would be strange if the results were to prove that people wanted the Irish language made non-compulsory. Was the survey conducted in the Connemara gaeltacht? :rolleyes:

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Is there a link to actual survey, what were the questions? Why does the report not give full details? What unfavourable findings were suppressed? You should never accept a press release at face value, use your critical faculties.

In all fairness, you're going to have to engage with the material a bit more than that. Being critical is very different to dismissing things out of hand. There's a disconnect between what people consistently say they want and the daily practice. I think it's flippant to suggest that the only explanation is a malevolent PR campaign.

If you want to find out the particulars of the latest survey - phrasing of questions, sampling parameters, aggregation techniques - what's stopping you finding out? Go contact the authors, and post the results here. I'd be interested to see them.

deise go deo

kfdb wrote: »

How will we come to it if its illegal? Say a group of parents wanted an school that was focused on bilingualism in the business languges of the EU in order of size - German, English French etc. That's a wider group of people and a more realistic proposition. Presume your support of bilingualism would put you on their side?

Or do you believe that your viewpoints right you have my children educated in your chosen language trumps my right to choose?

Who says its illegal?

As far as I know there is nothing blocking the establishment of a foreign language immersion school other than the lack of demand for one.

Agreed - I'd be slow to support immersion in languages other than English. Anything else produces division and offers a route to ghetto-isation of eduction along cultural or religious grounds.

I'm curious how some see it as acceptable for Irish but unthinkable for other languages.

Kreb

I suppose you will be providing evidence for this division and ghetto-isation?

We have had Gaelscoileanna for over 30 years now and there are no signs of this, Just an extremely effective method of education.

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So one law for one person and another for another? I never liked Irish in school. I was offered excemption when I was twelve but turned it down though many of my friends who also hated it weren't given the option.

What's to stop these people claiming they were Unionists to get an excemption? All they would have to do is convince their parents to make one phonecall to the principal.

An Irish solution to an Irish problem. A UI would not be an over night thing, as I'm sure you'll understand. Proposals the last time it was realistically up for discussion included allowing for some autonomous rule for a Belfast government within Ireland; a sort of Irish federacy if you will.

Irish children claiming to be Unionists in order to forgo doing a subject. I'm not even going to answer such a stupid question.

Oasis_Dublin

astrofool wrote: »

But we don't get the freedom to choose?...

We have voted in pro-compulsion parties since the foundation of the Irish state. What do you suggest? Ignoring the will of the Irish people?

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

We have voted in pro-compulsion parties since the foundation of the Irish state. What do you suggest? Ignoring the will of the Irish people?

.....Which is to use English as their common tongue.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Irish children claiming to be Unionists in order to forgo doing a subject. I'm not even going to answer such a stupid question.

Sooner or later you will have to.

RandomName2

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

We have voted in pro-compulsion parties since the foundation of the Irish state. What do you suggest? Ignoring the will of the Irish people?

Nomination for silliest post of the thread so far.

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

An Irish solution to an Irish problem. A UI would not be an over night thing, as I'm sure you'll understand. Proposals the last time it was realistically up for discussion included allowing for some autonomous rule for a Belfast government within Ireland; a sort of Irish federacy if you will.

Irish children claiming to be Unionists in order to forgo doing a subject. I'm not even going to answer such a stupid question.

"An Irish solution to an Irish problem"? What does that even mean? I asked you a question and you didn't give me an answer. If you want a united Ireland then these are the kinds of tedious little problems that will have to be worked through. And the solution is to make all "cultural" subjects like Irish and religion optional.

Stupid question? I know people who would have claimed to be Arab if it ment they didn't have to do Irish. Now I'll ask you again. In a united Ireland how would you stop people posing as Unionists to get out of Irish class?

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

We have voted in pro-compulsion parties since the foundation of the Irish state. What do you suggest? Ignoring the will of the Irish people?

Considering Fine Gael, the only pro optional party, are on route to an overall majority it is you who is ignoring the will of the Irish people.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Considering Fine Gael, the only pro optional party, are on route to an overall majority it is you who is ignoring the will of the Irish people.

The will of the Irish people? Do you think people are voting for FG because of their intention to Kill the Irish language? Most people I know are voting FG in spite of their Irish policy, not because of it.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

their intention to Kill the Irish language

No point complaining about Cyclopath being ott if you start being so yourself.

Euroland

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Is Irish a dead language?

Technically, yes.

Although I don’t support FG in this election, I’m fully behind their idea to make Irish optional at Leaving Certificate level. Moreover, I would support anyone who would make it completely optional at school (both primary and secondary). I have nothing against the language itself; however the schools first of all have to deliver the knowledge which would be useful in the real life of a child and don’t distract children minds with something that has absolutely no practical use in the real life (I mean Irish language). The same approach I would use for the religious education too. There is no reason to waist education time on this, and would be better if schools focus on additional foreign language (the most popular ones, first of all from business prospective), math, or something similar.

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

No point complaining about Cyclopath being ott if you start being so yourself.

Ok, I admit that it might not be their intention, but it will be the result.

deise go deo

1,000 Mac Léinn ag Agóid ar son na Gaeilge

There was a protest today outside Leinster house that attracted 1000 Students and People concerned about the Future of the Irish language.

Dúirt duine d’eagraithe na hagóide, Aodán Ó Deá, le Raidió Fáilte nach bhfuil an agóidíocht ach ina thús agus gur rún dóibh imeacht eile a eagrú ag deireadh seachtaine chun go mbeadh faill ag níos mó daoine óga a bheith páirteach ann.

The Organizer of the protest, Aodhán Ó Deá said to Raidió Fáilte that this is only the beginning of the protests, and he said that other Events are being planned for the weekend so that more young people can get involved.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

There was a protest today outside Leinster house that attracted 1000 Students and People concerned about the Future of the Irish language.

To show their sympathy, over 4 million Irish people who could not attend the protest, spoke English today.