Is Irish a dead language?

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah I get it now, another poster already described it earlier.

What happens when you have Irish parents claiming discrimination when Unionists are able to focus their studies on more points friendly courses?

And how will you stop Irish people claiming to be unionist. And don't say it won't happen. You don't know all 4.5 million Irish people in the country. Some would throw their own grandmother down a staircase if it ment getting out of mandatory Irish.


You really aren't doing yourself any favours.

I don't see it happening. As I said, the 6 counties won't be thrown into the Free State willy nilly. There will be a transitional period I'm sure.

Irish people won't claim to be Unionist in the same way as Jews wouldn't claim to be Muslims, Americans wouldn't claim to be French and Unionists wouldn't claim to be nationalists. Unionists would be a minority and on top of that, I'm sure some would actually move to Britain. You really aren't doing yourselves any favours claiming that Irish people want to be Unionists.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Irish people won't claim to be Unionist i the same way as Jews wouldn't claim to be Muslims, Americans wouldn't claim to be French

So, would this mean that a middle class Catholic with an impeccable genealogy going back to the high kings, but who, for business reasons, prefers unionism would be able to have his children escape compulsory Irish speaking classes?

The legal precedents will be fascinating.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So, would this mean that a middle class Catholic with an impeccable genealogy going back to the high kings, but who, for business reasons, prefers unionism would be able to have his children escape compulsory Irish speaking classes?

The legal precedents will be fascinating.

Escape? I'm sure Irish people wouldn't want to escape their culture.

Religion is a waste of time; it's more an ethnic issue than a religious one.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Escape? I'm sure Irish people wouldn't want to escape their culture.

English-speaking Protestants, descended from Cromwellian soldiers, now living in Bangor for generations and voting unionist are Irish too. What cultural obligations will be imposed on them?

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Religion is a waste of time; it's more an ethnic issue than a religious one.

Religion is part of a person's cultural identity. But, we do allow choice of religion.

Lord TSC

Was watching the debate there on TG4 and they were talking about compulsory Irish. Exact same points as being made herer to be honest. Kenny made somewhat of an idiot of himself though, going on about how Irish is the only complusory subject taught at LC level nowadays. I thought he was a teacher.... :S

Ludo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Was watching the debate there on TG4 and they were talking about compulsory Irish. Exact same points as being made herer to be honest. Kenny made somewhat of an idiot of himself though, going on about how Irish is the only complusory subject taught at LC level nowadays. I thought he was a teacher.... :S

ermmm...he is actually correct apparently so care to rethink all the above????

http://www.politics.ie/education-science/152500-irish-only-compulsory-subject-leaving-cert.html

He quite obviolsly knew this issue was going to come up...do you think he would make that kind of a statement without knowing the facts?

Lord TSC

Huh, statement retracted. The bad thing is I'm an English teacher myself. I never knew they weren't compulsory to be honest. That's fascinating actually, and kind of makes a mockery of those arguements earlier in the topic going on about "why should Irish be optional if English and Maths aren't..."

Ludo

I wouldn't feel too bad...after all the former minister for education (Martin) also didn't know and thought he had caught Kenny out badly.

Judgement Day

Interestingly Enda appears to have trounced the other two eejits (Martin and Gilmore) according to the Politics.ie Poll. I missed the debate as I couldn't be arsed watching something in a foreign language - it's bad enough trying to watch the Magners League on TG4 and there's some point to that.

LordSutch

Just to clarify Enda's revelation re non compulsory leaving cert Irish.

Well for a start, Fine Gael has no plans to scrap Irish from secondary school, indeed, if Enda gets his way there will be a root & branch overhall of the educational system in this country, with the 'dysfunctional' teaching of the Irish language in the mix for reform. > For generations Irish has been force fed to the people, in the hope that if its forced enough, then the people will start to speak it, (like it might stick)? well after decades & decades THIS APPROACH HAS NOT WORKED, and yet, Fianna Fail just want to re-jig the system and keep mandatory Irish for another twenty years, "well bugger that I say", time for change all round, and time to prepare our students for the real world in Science & Technology + all the other main subjects, while cutting them some slack, as to which language they might study after the Junior Cert.

This is where the Fine Gael proposals are aimed^ not to harm the Irish language, but to give the choice, and to stop the force feeding that has been a curse since the foundation of the State. Give students their heads after Junior Cert, and if they are aiming to be in the Guards then they know that "they must learn Irish" to succeed in that sphere, and if the are to study a profession that doesn't require the Irish language, then they will not have to do 1000's of hours of wasted compulsion, ala 95% of the population.

Rant over, and well done Enda (who really loves the Irish language) but sees the reality, that taking the pressure off the compulsive teaching of the Irish language will encourage it to flourish in the future.

eoinbn

Well after asking the same question on this forum a number of times I finally got the answer over the last few days.

It's becoming very clear what this is about-money. It has nothing to do with the 'saving' the Irish language. People in the Gaelic regions are worried that if the people that are struggling with the language can drop it then there will be a lot less students going to Gaelic regions during the summer.

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Escape? I'm sure Irish people wouldn't want to escape their culture.

Religion is a waste of time; it's more an ethnic issue than a religious one.

If you are so sure we would'nt want to escape why compulsion then ?

deise go deo

marienbad wrote: »

If you are so sure we would'nt want to escape why compulsion then ?

This question has been answered several times, so why do you still persist in asking it? how about countering the answer provided? We are waiting for evidence to support your position. So where is you EVIDENCE????? It is getting tiring listening to your soap boxing. Evidence please.

This is the answer to your question once more.


-If Irish isn’t a compulsory subject then there is the danger that it won’t be available in schools at all. if this happens then many students won’t have the choice to study Irish for the Leaving Cert. Instead of giving a choice to students, a choice will be taken away from them.
-Irish Teachers will lose their jobs.
-There will be no employment available for those with qualification in Irish.
-There will be an decrease in the amount of services available through Irish.
-We will see the eventual death of the Gaeltachtaí. There will be no need for Irish summer camps; a great source of income for the Gaeltacht, the mná tí in particular.
-Languages are more difficult at Leaving Cert level.
-There are two papers in Irish (7.5 hours for Irish as opposed to 2½ hours in other subject?) With the pressure students are under for points, “Grá don Ghaeilge” is not enough.
-It will be competing with other subjects due to timetabling conflict.
-Irish will not be available in every school anymore.
-pupils will be deterred from studying Irish from Primary school onwards.
International experts do not agree with this policy
Neither Enda Kenny nor Fine Gael have a single piece of evidence that justifies up this policy. We only have to look at what happened in England after foreign languages were made optional for the GCSE:
-Foreign Languages are optional at GSCE level in England since 2001
-Before this policy was put into effect 78% of students were studying at least one foreign at least for the GCSE.
-Today less than 44% of students are studying an extra language.
-it was a disastrous fall, that would have been worse still had private schools not retained a foreign language as a main subject.
-This story will be A LOT WORSE in Ireland.
The majority of people want Irish to remain compulory, 61%, should the minority dictate to the majority? Really




Fg's policy is based on opinion, not evidence, there has been NO Evidence put forward to support it, and we are still waiting for any attempt from the pro-optional side to show evidence for their argument. So where is the evidence? Where?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Oasis_Dublin

marienbad wrote: »

If you are so sure we would'nt want to escape why compulsion then ?

Why are LC English and Maths compulsory? Oh that's right, because you are outrageously biased.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

English-speaking Protestants, descended from Cromwellian soldiers, now living in Bangor for generations and voting unionist are Irish too. What cultural obligations will be imposed on them?

Religion is part of a person's cultural identity. But, we do allow choice of religion.

I replied to your point about Catholics. Don't change the goalposts after the match begins.

Religion only becomes an identifier when 'us' is compared to 'them.' I'm always Irish but I'm only of Catholic decent when I'm talking about where my ancestors came from.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

The majority of people want Irish to remain compulory, 61%, should the minority dictate to the majority? Really

Let's pretend, for a moment, that your statistic, based on a poll conducted by the Irish language lobby, and whose questions we have not seen, is valid.

You show zero empathy for the rights of a substantial number of people who do not wish to be forced to speak Irish and who do not wish their children to be forced to speak Irish. You care not a whit about them.

Lord TSC

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Why are LC English and Maths compulsory? Oh that's right, because you are outrageously biased.

Might want to check all the news channels and sites this morning; turns out English and Maths are not compulsory. Only Irish is....

LordSutch

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Might want to check all the news channels and sites this morning; turns out English and Maths are not compulsory. Only Irish is....

Indeed, and thats what Fine Gael are going to change (finally) and about time too!

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Let's pretend, for a moment, that your statistic, based on a poll conducted by the Irish language lobby, and whose questions we have not seen, is valid.

You show zero empathy for the rights of a substantial number of people who do not wish to be forced to speak Irish and who do not wish their children to be forced to speak Irish. You care not a whit about them.

You make the strange assumption that just because someone dosent believe that compulsion is the best way forward means that they have a problem with the language its self. that is a flawed conclusion. I know several people who want to see the language properly revived, who support it being made optional because they see it as the best way to revive the language. Your notion that someone not supporting compulsion is having their rights infringed is laughable.

On the issue of rights, what empathy have you shown to the Irish speaking community? Demanding at every opportunity as you have that they abandon their language and speak English, even going so far as to suggest that they dont have the right to have their kids taught Irish. And often demanding that the state force them to use English to conduct business with the state.
Your concern for minority's rings hollow.

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Might want to check all the news channels and sites this morning; turns out English and Maths are not compulsory. Only Irish is....

I would like you to show me the school where students have a choice to not do English or Maths.
Not compulsory but still no choice, the pro-optional side has stayed very quite about this lack of choice, hypocrisy at its finest.

Lord TSC

deise go deo wrote: »

I would like you to show me the school where students have a choice to not do English or Maths.
Not compulsory but still no choice, the pro-optional side has stayed very quite about this lack of choice, hypocrisy at its finest.

We've not stayed quite. Back in the early stages of this debate, most of the pro-options side agreed that if Irish were to be made optional, then so should English and Maths. That if we were going to force a choice with one subject, it would be wrong not to offer a choice on all. Sadly, this fact has been ignored by the anti-choice brigade who continue to bring up complusory English and Maths as a point to strenghten their own case, despite what has followed previously. It's the equivelent of sticking your head in the sand when valid points are made...

It's also worth pointing out though that obviously the fact that English and Maths are not compulsory has not stoped schools from seeing importance in them and making sure all students take them. Perhaps if Irish were set to the same level of important as the two, as opposed to now where it is actually the only compulsory subject, then schools would be given the chance to deem if they should still be taught on a wide basis. But god forbid people and schools have that choice.

I'd also like to point out that a few pages back, a student actually contributed to this debate; a student who is actually studying Irish and is the very one who's opinion should possibly mean more than all of ours. And to the best of my knowledge, his post was completely ignored...

eoinbn

-If Irish isn’t a compulsory subject then there is the danger that it won’t be available in schools at all. if this happens then many students won’t have the choice to study Irish for the Leaving Cert. Instead of giving a choice to students, a choice will be taken away from them.

According to the polls 61% of students want to learn it, and view it to be very important, so why wouldn't a school teach it?

-Irish Teachers will lose their jobs.

Zero chance of that happening, but even if there were it's not a good reason. Is this about the language, the students or keeping teachers in a job? I should hope it's the first two.

-There will be no employment available for those with qualification in Irish.

Why? You keep saying that the language is hugely important and how useful it is....

There will be an decrease in the amount of services available through Irish.

I don't see why that would happen.

-We will see the eventual death of the Gaeltachtaí. There will be no need for Irish summer camps; a great source of income for the Gaeltacht, the mná tí in particular.

Ah yes. Now we are getting to the real reason. The main reason for the resistance- Gaeltacht area's losing money.

-Foreign Languages are optional at GSCE level in England since 2001
-Before this policy was put into effect 78% of students were studying at least one foreign at least for the GCSE.
-Today less than 44% of students are studying an extra language.
-it was a disastrous fall, that would have been worse still had private schools not retained a foreign language as a main subject.

So what? How many of those 78% make use of the language other than to try and chat up the opposite sex on holidays? If people don't view it as important then it's their choice.

The majority of people want Irish to remain compulory, 61%, should the minority dictate to the majority? Really

First I doubt that figure is true. Polls are fairly easy to twist. Second, what happened to a freedom of choice? Nobody is saying BAN irish we are just saying that people should have a CHOICE. That's very different to your view where you want EVERYONE to learn the language. You are the one that is dictating to at LEAST ~39% of the population. The 39% are just saying- hey we would like a choice.

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I don't see it happening. As I said, the 6 counties won't be thrown into the Free State willy nilly. There will be a transitional period I'm sure.

Irish people won't claim to be Unionist in the same way as Jews wouldn't claim to be Muslims, Americans wouldn't claim to be French and Unionists wouldn't claim to be nationalists. Unionists would be a minority and on top of that, I'm sure some would actually move to Britain. You really aren't doing yourselves any favours claiming that Irish people want to be Unionists.

lol, you said willy.

What has the transitional period have to do with my question? I asked you "What happens when you have Irish parents claiming discrimination when Unionists are able to focus their studies on more points friendly courses?"

And you can't say that Irish people won't claim to be Unionist to get out of Irish many of my friends would have so unless you know every single Irish person such comments are pointless.

Unless nationalists can come up with real solutions to solve such problems a united Ireland will never work though this problem is easily solved by
making Irish optional for all.

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Why are LC English and Maths compulsory? Oh that's right, because you are outrageously biased.

Irish is the only compulsorily subject for the leaving. But you have avoided my question, If you are so sure the Irish wont want to avoid their culture why compulsion ?

marienbad

deise go deo wrote: »

I would like you to show me the school where students have a choice to not do English or Maths.
Not compulsory but still no choice, the pro-optional side has stayed very quite about this lack of choice, hypocrisy at its finest.

Or may be you have this the wrong way round Deise, The language lobby stayed wery quite about this as it could be used that merit not compulsion was the reason these subjects prospered.

If ye had real confidence in your subject the same could happen to Irish.

Iwasfrozen

marienbad wrote: »

Or may be you have this the wrong way round Deise, The language lobby stayed wery quite about this as it could be used that merit not compulsion was the reason these subjects prospered.

If ye had real confidence in your subject the same could happen to Irish.

Exactly if these subjects are not compuslory yet every school offers them anyway then the same thing will happen with Irish.

This basically kills the arguement that not all students will have the option to study irish if compulsion was ended.

Focalbhach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Exactly if these subjects are not compuslory yet every school offers them anyway

Seems fair to point out that English is a basic entry requirement for all Irish universities, while maths is required for entry to some universities on any course, and for entry to all on a range of courses. Thus their inclusion in every school as core subjects, though not technically compulsory.

sparkling sea

What use is Irish to all the people who have to emigrate and will continue to have to do so? None

What use is it to people who don't work in state related jobs? None

There is a need to understand your own history (not that this is always told in this country in any kind of a truthful way) cultures and traditions and that is why converstional Irish should be taught at primary level in my opinion. But it shouldn't be imposed after this - its way to paternalistic to impose this on parents and their children.

I don't beleive that anyone should be able to interfer with my autonomous decisons on issues like this one, nor do I think that other people have the ability to make a decision on whats best for my children in this area.

Irish is dead unless people choose to enjoy it and it can be seen that many adults who may have hated the language as children freely choose to take up classes like Cupla Focal as adults. Freedom of choice allows these who want too to choose to and those who don't not too.
Freedom to choose is whats keeping a love of the language alive not people enforcing their opinons on others.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Exactly if these subjects are not compuslory yet every school offers them anyway then the same thing will happen with Irish.

This basically kills the arguement that not all students will have the option to study irish if compulsion was ended.

Dident happen in England when learning a second language was made optional, On what basis do you assume it will happen here?

Irish is not required for Entry into most Universitys, There are several reasons that people will not choose Irish. It is at a disadvantage in a compitition with other subjects for people to choose it due to its Frustrating literature heavy curriculum.

The curriculum alone is enough to turn many people off the subject as points can be got in other subjects with a much lighter work load.


Should FG come through with its promose to reform the Curriculum before considering making Irish optional then we will be in a different position, but the process will have to be given time to be assessed. Rushing things will lead to the same kind of disaster as happened in England.

Just making it optional will do nothing but cause harm.

enda1

To answer the question asked by the OP, Irish is not a dead language.
It is however on life support. To give it a chance to flourish, it should be removed from life support and let breath for itself.