Is Irish a dead language?

enda1 · 17-02-2011 1:44pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Dident happen in England when learning a second language was made optional, On what basis do you assume it will happen here?

Irish is not required for Entry into most Universitys, There are several reasons that people will not choose Irish. It is at a disadvantage in a compitition with other subjects for people to choose it due to its Frustrating literature heavy curriculum.

The curriculum alone is enough to turn many people off the subject as points can be got in other subjects with a much lighter work load.

Should FG come through with its promose to reform the Curriculum before considering making Irish optional then we will be in a different position, but the process will have to be given time to be assessed. Rushing things will lead to the same kind of disaster as happened in England.

Just making it optional will do nothing but cause harm.

I thought it was only TCD which didn't require Irish? (Unless you have an exemption for whatever reason of course).

RandomName2 · 17-02-2011 2:20pm

enda1 wrote: »

I thought it was only TCD which didn't require Irish? (Unless you have an exemption for whatever reason of course).

I know for a fact that you would be barred from going to UCD unless you had leaving Cert qualification in Irish (unless you actually weren't Irish

) - and Trinity, afaik is the only university not to have this mandatory requirement.

Which makes ABSOLUTELY NO LOGICAL SENSE (unless you specifically want to study Irish that is).

Three quick questions for deise:

1) Do you support Irish people being being barred from universities if they do not have Irish?

and

2) Do you believe that bilingualism has been a good or a bad thing for a country like Belgium?

and

3) If you believe that a good leaving certificate subject like Irish will disappear if people have a choice, because of its poor curriculum, do you also believe that other leaving certificate subjects should be made mandatory, just in case they have a bad curriculum and disappear due to apathy?

(Sorry the last question is a bit of a trick - when subjects like Physics, Biology and History started to be rejected by students due to their poor curricula, the answer was to change the curricula of each to increase their uptake whilst maintaining the intellectual rigor of their respective courses. Which worked.)

caseyann · 17-02-2011 2:24pm

Then they should remove English poetry etc... from the schools its not needed.
Thank god yous cant touch the Irish schools where i will send my kids.:p
I refuse to allow my kids learn English poetry etc.. from now on

AlexderFranke · 17-02-2011 2:28pm

De réir na himirceoireachta: Ba cheart níos mó ceachtanna Gaeilge a thairiscint ar scoil thar lear, le béim ar áiteanna agus tíortha a bhfuil go leor Éireannach ann.

Referring to emigration: More Irish lessons should be offered at school abroad, with emphasis on places and countries where there are many Irish people.

deise go deo · 17-02-2011 2:35pm

enda1 wrote: »

I thought it was only TCD which didn't require Irish? (Unless you have an exemption for whatever reason of course).

The University of Limerick does not require Irish. The requirement is for A forrign language or Irish.(I owe my place here to that)

enda1 · 17-02-2011 2:36pm

deise go deo wrote: »

The University of Limerick does not require Irish. The requirement is for A forrign language or Irish.(I owe my place here to that)

OK then, that's only two though.

Hardly the majority.

Oasis_Dublin · 17-02-2011 2:43pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol, you said willy.

What has the transitional period have to do with my question? I asked you "What happens when you have Irish parents claiming discrimination when Unionists are able to focus their studies on more points friendly courses?"

And you can't say that Irish people won't claim to be Unionist to get out of Irish many of my friends would have so unless you know every single Irish person such comments are pointless.

Unless nationalists can come up with real solutions to solve such problems a united Ireland will never work though this problem is easily solved by
making Irish optional for all.

It was asked why there would be two different laws for citizens of Ireland, I said there would be a transitional period. Simple really.

Of course I can say it. I just said it, a few posts ago. If you think that Irish people are going to start wrapping themselves up in the Union Flag to get out of compulsion then goodluck to you.

Of course, make Irish optional and Johnny Adare will realise the errors of his ways and join Sinn Féin.

Oasis_Dublin · 17-02-2011 2:46pm

marienbad wrote: »

May I ask what do you mean by ''these people'' and ''on their own level'' ?

I'm sure you can but you may not.

RandomName2 · 17-02-2011 3:03pm

caseyann wrote: »

(... in that case?) they should remove English poetry etc... from the schools it's not needed.
Thank god you can't touch the Irish (in?) schools where I will (be?) send(ing?) my kids.:p
I (would?) refuse to allow my kids learn English poetry etc.. from now on

I'm sorry, but I couldn't really make head or tail of what you're saying.

No, seriously.

caseyann · 17-02-2011 3:16pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I couldn't really make head or tail of what you're saying.

No, seriously.

What you edited there happy.
I will refuse my children being forced to learn English poetry etc.. in school as they dont need it.

skregs · 17-02-2011 3:46pm

Irish is dead because I've never bothered my hole to learn it.

Its not that i'm lazy, its the fact that its compulsory in school and has no practical use in day to day life, unlike trigonometry or the political allegories of Macbeth

astrofool · 17-02-2011 3:49pm

caseyann wrote: »

What you edited there happy.
I will refuse my children being forced to learn English poetry etc.. in school as they dont need it.

As English is optional, that's fine!

of course, their career options may be severely limited from then on. (unless they want a state mandated job in translating or teaching Irish).

caseyann · 17-02-2011 3:55pm

astrofool wrote: »

As English is optional, that's fine!

of course, their career options may be severely limited from then on. (unless they want a state mandated job in translating or teaching Irish).

Give it a rest, i said English poems and lit,whats that got to do with life and work nothing diddly squat.;)

Lord TSC · 17-02-2011 4:02pm

Ok, a quick interjection on the whole "whats the relevence of English" line that crops up every now and again.

The role of English, especially at Leaving Cert level, is to teach critical thinking. It's not about memorising chunks of poetry or text (although, sadly, that's what it turns into due to the nature of the exam system) but about being able to take a piece of writing, read it and think critically about it; about being able to identify both sides of an arguement or discussion and then being able to outline you arguements in logical and sensible ways. It's about HOW you read and learn rather than WHAT you read and learn....

Meanwhile, the aim of the English course is then to be able to take these skills (in particular the critical thinking) and apply them to more general, day to day cases and debates, just like this one.

caseyann · 17-02-2011 4:06pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Ok, a quick interjection on the whole "whats the relevence of English" line that crops up every now and again.

The role of English, especially at Leaving Cert level, is to teach critical thinking. It's not about memorising chunks of poetry or text (although, sadly, that's what it turns into due to the nature of the exam system) but about being able to take a piece of writing, read it and think critically about it; about being able to identify both sides of an arguement or discussion and then being able to outline you arguements in logical and sensible ways. It's about HOW you read and learn rather than WHAT you read and learn....

Meanwhile, the aim of the English course is then to be able to take these skills (in particular the critical thinking) and apply them to more general, day to day cases and debates, just like this one.

lol I am sorry complete rubbish,overloading kids minds with meaningless English lit and poetry.It has no bearing people learn those things from life lessons.;)

Judgement Day · 17-02-2011 4:10pm

caseyann wrote: »

What you edited there happy.
I will refuse my children being forced to learn English poetry etc.. in school as they dont need it.

Why indoctrinate your children with your beliefs?

caseyann · 17-02-2011 4:13pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Why indoctrinate your children with your beliefs?

Who are you to question me on what i feel is best for my kids?

astrofool · 17-02-2011 4:44pm

caseyann wrote: »

Who are you to question me on what i feel is best for my kids?

Does it matter who he is?

Anyway, I meant from the POV that no third level college would touch anyone without a LC english result with a barge pole, yet they really don't care about Irish (apart from the "compulsary" POV).

The only people who need Irish to go to third level education over here are Irish people. Everyone else needs English

caseyann · 17-02-2011 4:52pm

astrofool wrote: »

Does it matter who he is?

Anyway, I meant from the POV that no third level college would touch anyone without a LC english result with a barge pole, yet they really don't care about Irish (apart from the "compulsary" POV).

The only people who need Irish to go to third level education over here are Irish people. Everyone else needs English

Was i talking to you who are you to answer for him?

I didnt want to learn English lit and poetry, i hated it so i was right and should have boycotted it when i was in school then?

And English lit and poetry is needed in that because and is right because?
Although Irish is our heritage and its wrong that it should compulsory but not wrong if English lit and poetry is?
I love the double standards.

BluePlanet · 17-02-2011 4:57pm

If Irish wasn't a dead language, it wouldn't require artificial government supports and compulsion to exist.

Lord TSC · 17-02-2011 5:03pm

caseyann wrote: »

lol I am sorry complete rubbish,overloading kids minds with meaningless English lit and poetry.It has no bearing people learn those things from life lessons.;)

Your entitled to your opinions and I am aware of the subject's failings. Unfortunatly, due to exams and so forth, there is an unnessecary amount of learning and reciting from memory. I'm just trying to say that's what English is meant to be about.

Regardless, it still doesn't change the fact that this is a discussion on the Irish subject and it weaken's your stance when the only point you can try and get accross is that "English is rubbish"; it's avoiding dealing with the short-comings with the topic at hand...

Again I'll say though, why is the post from the LC student being ignored? Could some of the pro-compulsion group (esp. Deise) please even achknowledge you saw the post and, if possible, offer thoughts on it?

astrofool · 17-02-2011 5:06pm

caseyann wrote: »

Was i talking to you who are you to answer for him?

I didnt want to learn English lit and poetry, i hated it so i was right and should have boycotted it when i was in school then?

And English lit and poetry is needed in that because and is right because?
Although Irish is our heritage and its wrong that it should compulsory but not wrong if English lit and poetry is?
I love the double standards.

This is a public forum, anyone can answer any question, I fail to see how him being an educated mongoose would make a difference to the questions he asked.

My point about English is that, it's not compulsory, but if your children ever want to go to third level education, then not having English will make that very difficult.

The English course currently includes poetry, but also includes essay writing (essential for most courses), critical reading and answering of a passage (also pretty essential), as well as in depth analysis of Shakespeare (it's not the learning of Shakespeare that is important, but the ability to read more complex than usual language, and be able to answer questions on it).

Those are pretty essential skills regardless of what language they are covered in, and you'll find similar teaching in every country in the world (but of course in that country's native language, e.g. French Students studying French poetry, Italians studying Dante etc.)

caseyann · 17-02-2011 5:08pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Your entitled to your opinions and I am aware of the subject's failings. Unfortunatly, due to exams and so forth, there is an unnessecary amount of learning and reciting from memory. I'm just trying to say that's what English is meant to be about.

Regardless, it still doesn't change the fact that this is a discussion on the Irish subject and it weaken's your stance when the only point you can try and get accross is that "English is rubbish"; it's avoiding dealing with the short-comings with the topic at hand...

Again I'll say though, why is the post from the LC student being ignored? Could some of the pro-compulsion group (esp. Deise) please even achknowledge you saw the post and, if possible, offer thoughts on it?

Where is the LC student post? I havent seen it.

And not thats not what the point is.And if you didnt get the point i wont go back over it.To busy now to go into any amount of detail.
Point me at the LC students post thanks.

Judgement Day · 17-02-2011 5:34pm

Way back in this thread I asked could someone tell me how much is spent on promoting the Irish language each year - I genuinely don't know? I heard the figure of €1 billion per annum mentioned on the radio today but I find that hard to believe. Anybody?

Iwasfrozen · 17-02-2011 5:48pm

caseyann wrote: »

Was i talking to you who are you to answer for him?

I didnt want to learn English lit and poetry, i hated it so i was right and should have boycotted it when i was in school then?

And English lit and poetry is needed in that because and is right because?
Although Irish is our heritage and its wrong that it should compulsory but not wrong if English lit and poetry is?
I love the double standards.

Lol, Caseyann english isn't compulsory weren't you reading the thread this morning? Irish is the only compulsory if you don't want your children learning english then fine, lobby the school to have him/her removed from english class. You'll ruin any chance he/she has of making it into college but that's a consequence of your decision.

Sadly parents who don't want their children learning Irish have no such choice as it is the only compulsory subject.

Iwasfrozen · 17-02-2011 5:50pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Way back in this thread I asked could someone tell me how much is spent on promoting the Irish language each - I genuinely don't know? I heard the figure of €1 billion per annum mentioned on the radio today but I find that hard to believe. Anybody?

I don't know how much exactly but I heard it was the same as the defence forces. If so the defence forces get 1.27 billion a year according to wikipedia.

Lord TSC · 17-02-2011 5:52pm

caseyann wrote: »

Where is the LC student post? I havent seen it.

I'll quote it instead of sending people crawling back through pages...

Valin wrote: »

I've been reading most of the threads on this and it seems that the majority of the comments are from people who don't 'have' to learn Irish anymore.

I'm doing my Leaving this year and it has to be said the pressure of the exams is bad enough without being forced to take a language that is of little use to you in the global economy. Yes, it's great that we have our own language and culture and for people who want to do it or whom are good linguists it's great. But for the huge portion of mathematically and scientifically orientated students it is incomprehensible.

I could be doing extra subject where I not force to do Irish. Instead I must do it and along with 80% of my year I take it at ordinary level. This is paying pure lip service to the language. Most of us couldn't put a sentence together. Yet some of you come on here with high and mighty attitudes about how we should be forced to learn something that is of no use to us and is in contrast to our strengths.

Good on Fine Gael. They're the only party taking the side of the people this mainly affects: Overworked, stressed out leaving cert students.

marienbad · 17-02-2011 6:03pm

Leto wrote: »

Seems fair to point out that English is a basic entry requirement for all Irish universities, while maths is required for entry to some universities on any course, and for entry to all on a range of courses. Thus their inclusion in every school as core subjects, though not technically compulsory.

all the scrambling now to move the goalposts, so those that want uni do English , those that want science Uni do English and maths, those that want Irish do Irish and those that just want the plain old leaving do what they like andr what they are good at. ( usually the same )

Now what is wrong with that picture

marienbad · 17-02-2011 6:14pm

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'm sure you can but you may not.

OK . I noticed you hav'nt answered my other question either. Be great if all issues could just be ignored and rudeness made a substitute for debate.

Iwasfrozen · 17-02-2011 6:20pm

marienbad wrote: »

OK . I noticed you hav'nt answered my other question either. Be great if all issues could just be ignored and rudeness made a substitute for debate.

As a not so wise man once said: You have to deal with these people on their own level.

Is Irish a dead language?

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