Is Irish a dead language?

marienbad

Leto wrote: »

I might quibble with the assumption that your reading of what I say is reasonable, but in any case: no, that was not the intention.

So would you be happy then with Irish as a 'core' subject rather than a compulsory one ?

Valin

caseyann wrote: »

Why the hell should i contribute to this thread with the asshole comment from the post above me and the ****ty attitudes like this one? I can answer them no problem just couldnt be arsed.Pathetic come back

For the LC student take it up with your parents they should have took you out of Irish when you struggled.their fault.

Hi Caseyann, thank you for welcoming me to the thread. I see as with most of these threads it too is filled with ignorant people such as yourself.

First of all your not 'being arsed' to reply to my comment is fun, shows you couldn't come up with an adequate answer for my genuine issue with the mandatory nature of Irish.

Next my '****ty attitude' is nothing of the sort. How is being an top level maths and science student yet not wishing to have ones grades dragged down by being forced to do a globally useless language a bad attitude? Just because it differs from your own does not make it '****ty' or whatever word you're trying to say.

I do have to call your outright lie about how my 'parents they should have took you out of Irish when you struggled.' THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF IT BEING NON-COMPULSORY YOU FOOL. If it were not compulsory my parents could take me out of it but they can't. The only way to get out of it is with a either a medical impairment (dyslexia) or by having a birth certificate saying you were not born in the country.

So before you say it's my parents 'fault' that I have to struggle with Irish you should really realise that it's not their fault it's the government and people like you who force non-linguists to take a language they cannot see the point in.

Bubblegums

I went to an all Irish national school and looking back now, am dead proud of that. We did all our lessons through Irish, except for English obviously, we played games in Irish etc, we'd come home and speak English and Irish. We then went on to secondary school and anyone from the Irish speaking school had no problem with Irish. We sailed through Irish even though our spelling was a disaster, we could communicate well verbally in Irish, but poorly in written Irish but examiners would and do turn a blind eye to spellings in Irish if they see you can speak it but are a rubbish speller. You get feck all scores for memorising an answer as opposed to being able to explain yourself at lenght but with poor spellings! Oral Irish was a doddle

We were forced to do French in secondary school - I am hopeless at French. Hate it even.

I took German as an extra subject and loved it to bits and found that having the Irish made German easier. Don't ask why. I just found it that way.

My other half was forced to do French also in secondary and was useless at it but took it up afterwards when they bought the lingaphone stuff and taught themselves French and they adore it. They also love trying to speak Irish with me.

Most subjects you are made to learn are learned with an element of hatred, in my view. Anything you are used to from an early age or gain an interest in by your own hand stays with you.

I agree that the Irish language is taught all wrong in schools. The majority of students meet Irish in secondary school for the first time as a subject they will be examined in, it is only natural that they struggle with it and hate it in turn.

Not many people loved maths in school either I bet but no one is asking for it to be taken out of schools...

Lord TSC

Valin wrote: »

Hi Caseyann, thank you for welcoming me to the thread. I see as with most of these threads it too is filled with ignorant people such as yourself.

First of all your not 'being arsed' to reply to my comment is fun, shows you couldn't come up with an adequate answer for my genuine issue with the mandatory nature of Irish.

Next my '****ty attitude' is nothing of the sort. How is being an top level maths and science student yet not wishing to have ones grades dragged down by being forced to do a globally useless language a bad attitude? Just because it differs from your own does not make it '****ty' or whatever word you're trying to say.

In due fairness to him, I think the attitude he was refering to was my own when I was asking people to actually reply to your post; it was the fact I put pressure on him to address it that annoyed him. :S

RandomName2

Bubblegums wrote: »

I went to an all Irish national school and looking back now, am dead proud of that. We did all our lessons through Irish, except for English obviously, we played games in Irish etc, we'd come home and speak English and Irish. We then went on to secondary school and anyone from the Irish speaking school had no problem with Irish. We sailed through Irish even though our spelling was a disaster, we could communicate well verbally in Irish, but poorly in written Irish but examiners would and do turn a blind eye to spellings in Irish if they see you can speak it but are a rubbish speller. You get feck all scores for memorising an answer as opposed to being able to explain yourself at lenght but with poor spellings! Oral Irish was a doddle

We were forced to do French in secondary school - I am hopeless at French. Hate it even.

I took German as an extra subject and loved it to bits and found that having the Irish made German easier. Don't ask why. I just found it that way.

My other half was forced to do French also in secondary and was useless at it but took it up afterwards when they bought the lingaphone stuff and taught themselves French and they adore it. They also love trying to speak Irish with me.

Most subjects you are made to learn are learned with an element of hatred, in my view. Anything you are used to from an early age or gain an interest in by your own hand stays with you.

I agree that the Irish language is taught all wrong in schools. The majority of students meet Irish in secondary school for the first time as a subject they will be examined in, it is only natural that they struggle with it and hate it in turn.

Not many people loved maths in school either I bet but no one is asking for it to be taken out of schools...

You think that you should have been forced to learn French even though you gained nothing from it?

Or is it that you feel you should have been forced to learn it from a young age?

NTMK

caseyann wrote: »

Why the hell should i contribute to this thread with the asshole comment from the post above me and the ****ty attitudes like this one? I can answer them no problem just couldnt be arsed.Pathetic come back

For the LC student take it up with your parents they should have took you out of Irish when you struggled.their fault.

do you realise how hard it is to get an exemption from irish?

NTMK

NTMK wrote: »

do you realise how hard it is to get an exemption from irish?

I lived outside of Ireland for a number of years (most of primary school) and didnt get one. When we came back my sister went straight into Junior Cert year and had to learn the course and sit the paper. Very annoying that neither of us could get exemptions. Given the appalling standards across the board we didnt have much trouble in getting by. Even so, I feel that time could have been better spent on another subject and would support the move to make it optional for future generations.

caseyann

Valin wrote: »

Hi Caseyann, thank you for welcoming me to the thread. I see as with most of these threads it too is filled with ignorant people such as yourself.

First of all your not 'being arsed' to reply to my comment is fun, shows you couldn't come up with an adequate answer for my genuine issue with the mandatory nature of Irish.

Next my '****ty attitude' is nothing of the sort. How is being an top level maths and science student yet not wishing to have ones grades dragged down by being forced to do a globally useless language a bad attitude? Just because it differs from your own does not make it '****ty' or whatever word you're trying to say.

I do have to call your outright lie about how my 'parents they should have took you out of Irish when you struggled.' THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF IT BEING NON-COMPULSORY YOU FOOL. If it were not compulsory my parents could take me out of it but they can't. The only way to get out of it is with a either a medical impairment (dyslexia) or by having a birth certificate saying you were not born in the country.

So before you say it's my parents 'fault' that I have to struggle with Irish you should really realise that it's not their fault it's the government and people like you who force non-linguists to take a language they cannot see the point in.

Hey Valin,i wasn't referring to your post or anything to do with your comment i was talking about the attack sparkling whatever poster said to me without me even have said anything at all.
I meant i wasnt going to be posting to answer in this thread anymore.
Sorry you assumed i was talking about you it wasnt the case.
I disagree you can now for your age apply to them to not go to do Irish.You do not have to sit your exams at all.Leaving cert standard is all you need.You can not go for Irish test and ask them to remove you from Irish as it is causing you stress.
If your college course demands Irish for getting in then i am afraid you must sit the exam if not then dont do it.

I wont report your post as you clearly misunderstood and i will let it go

caseyann

NTMK wrote: »

do you realise how hard it is to get an exemption from irish?

Where there is a will there is a way

caseyann

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

In due fairness to him, I think the attitude he was refering to was my own when I was asking people to actually reply to your post; it was the fact I put pressure on him to address it that annoyed him. :S

I wasnt refering to you either

Iwasfrozen

caseyann wrote: »

Where there is a will there is a way

It would be easier to just make it opional across the board and prevent students up and down the country falling out with their principals and/or Irish teachers.

caseyann

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It would be easier to just make it opional across the board and prevent students up and down the country falling out with their principals and/or Irish teachers.

Well thats not going to help any leaving student now is it at the moment?
And would most kids just dump their efforts in Irish right away to have nothing to do with and have no achievement in it for their work and study in it?
I dont care what happens anymore.

Iwasfrozen

caseyann wrote: »

Well thats not going to help any leaving student now is it at the moment?
And would most kids just dump their efforts in Irish right away to have nothing to do with and have no achievement in it for their work and study in it?
I dont care what happens anymore.

No it's not going to help any student now but it will hep those in the future.

And sure some will dump Irish after the Junior Cert without putting work in it but that's their right, you can't force your values onto other people.

caseyann

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No it's not going to help any student now but it will hep those in the future.

And sure some will dump Irish after the Junior Cert without putting work in it but that's their right, you can't force your values onto other people.

Way to go to try make up **** and puts words in my mouth this is why i dont answer your posts,i wont again.Good bye

Oasis_Dublin

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Ok, a quick interjection on the whole "whats the relevence of English" line that crops up every now and again.

The role of English, especially at Leaving Cert level, is to teach critical thinking. It's not about memorising chunks of poetry or text (although, sadly, that's what it turns into due to the nature of the exam system) but about being able to take a piece of writing, read it and think critically about it; about being able to identify both sides of an arguement or discussion and then being able to outline you arguements in logical and sensible ways. It's about HOW you read and learn rather than WHAT you read and learn....

Meanwhile, the aim of the English course is then to be able to take these skills (in particular the critical thinking) and apply them to more general, day to day cases and debates, just like this one.

History was my path to critical assessment. English was my path to learning off flowery poetry and laughing at Daniel Day Lewis bang his head off a table. If it's purely for critical assessment that we study English, then it is a poor reason.

Oasis_Dublin

I used to study the piano when I was younger, gave it up after much fighting with my parents. I completely regret that decision however because I would love to be able to play piano today. A small bit of foresight wouldn't go amiss in this discussion and all the "Chinese is a more practical language" BS is not going to change anyone's opinion, unless you wish to work in China.

yuloni

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deise go deo

Condi wrote: »

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Can you back that up?
I have seen plenty of evidience to suggest otherwise.

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Its called a recession, failed businesses are hardly unique to Udaras na Gaelthachta now are they.:rolleyes:

'Stad' Signs
You would have to be a compleat spanner not to realize what the sign is for(Really if you dident get it, you should not be driving.)
The shape of Stop signs are international.



It seams Ireland is not the only country in the world where 'Stop' is not necessary to prevent the French from Crashing.:rolleyes:

Better yet, why not put this on our Stop signs, Then the French will really have no excuse.:pac:

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Not every government document is translated, Why do people need to exagerate every time with this?

Better still, If someone wants to recieve an English version, let them pay for it, Oh wait, they do, its called tax. Guess what, Irish speakers pay tax too.

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For who? The Irish speakers that will be forced to use English? The language, which will die?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Not every government document is translated, Why do people need to exagerate every time with this?

The law is that all government and public service documents must be available if demanded. Not only that but also online computer systems. Plus Irish speaking customer service staff. The Irish language enforcement office is pursuing this.

deise go deo wrote: »

For who? The Irish speakers that will be forced to use English?

For people who are fluent in English. People who can speak English when they want to.

English is our common language, it makes sense to standardise on it for government communications.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The law is that all government and public service documents must be available if demanded. Not only that but also online computer systems. Plus Irish speaking customer service staff. The Irish language enforcement office is pursuing this.

Irish language enforcement office? Stop making stuff up cyclopath, its childish.

The list you provided does not = Translating every government document.

For people who are fluent in English. People who can speak English when they want to.

English is our common language, it makes sense to standardise on it for government communications.

How is denying services to Irish speakers 'better' for people fluent in English?
It makes sence for the government to provide services in both official languages.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish language enforcement office? Stop making stuff up cyclopath, its childish.

I surprised, that having been caught out denying that anyone wants to replace Irish with English, you'd have more sense than to deny that a government agency exists to enforce compulsory Irish language laws.

deise go deo wrote: »

How is denying services to Irish speakers 'better' for people fluent in English?

This would only be true if there were Irish speakers who did not speak English. The only people demanding services in Irish are people fluent and competent in English.

deise go deo wrote: »

It makes sence for the government to provide services in both official languages.

Sence? Is this a new word, meaning 'waste of money'?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I surprised, that having been caught out denying that anyone wants to replace Irish with English, you'd have more sense than to deny that a government agency exists to enforce compulsory Irish language laws.

Please provide a link to the government agency called the 'Irish language enforcement Office'

While you are at it, Provide a link for any law that makes Irish compulsory.

Making stuff up is childish cyclopath.

This would only be true if there were Irish speakers who did not speak English. The only people demanding services in Irish are people fluent and competent in English.

Irish speakers will be denied services in their native language, which happens to also an official language of the state, please explain how this is 'Better'

Sence? Is this a new word, meaning 'waste of money'?

So I misspelt the word sense, no need to jump down my throat over it, that is extremely rude. :rolleyes:

Focalbhach

marienbad wrote: »

So would you be happy then with Irish as a 'core' subject rather than a compulsory one ?

All else being equal, I don't see a need for Irish to be compulsory for the Leaving Cert. Of course, life being a messy affair as usual, there's a caveat. All else is not equal in this case: as we're all acutely aware, Irish teaching in our schools arouses some very strong feelings and comes with a significant load of negative baggage. There are several reasons for that and we may dispute their relative importance, but I don't think anyone here will argue that this negativity does not exist.

What I would like to see is an inversion of the current approach in which students spend years learning lists of prepositions and conjugations from copybooks, before 'studying' poetry in which they don't understand the vocabulary (let along the imagery), before, belatedly, some spoken lines are rote-learned in the year preceding the Leaving Cert oral exam and tips for extracting 'key' words from semi-comprehended tapes are given in advance of the aural. A key problem that I see - and it's a baffling one - is that the Irish syllabus almost seems to be designed for students who already have a good grasp of it, rather than for students who are mainly learning it as a second language. And this in a country that doesn't do second languages well at the best of times. For the majority of students it is/would be a second language, and needs to be taught as such. On this note, I hope dubhthach won't mind my re-posting this well-made point regarding acquired competence in second languages. Hopefully it will go some way to addressing the concerns of those who think that the existing lack of fluency among school-leavers is in itself a damning indictment of Irish.

What I would like is for the language to be primarily heard and spoken in early classes so that the children can - shock! horror! - actually use it to express themselves to their teacher, their classmates, and (if mutually agreeable) their parents. I'm a fan of the idea of occasionally using Irish in the classroom while teaching other subjects. Aside from anything else, it could be a useful exercise for those subjects to get children thinking about how to explain something in a second language that they are comfortable with. At second level, Irish communication and Irish literature could easily be two separate subjects, which would help to disentangle much of the existing negative association.

My concern is that if an announcement came tomorrow that Irish as it currently exists were to become an opt-in subject before this change in teaching focus, it would be on the receiving end of a backlash - a negative bounce, for lack of a better term. Some students would get out purely because they could, some current students who have slogged through the existing hames of a syllabus would get out to end the misery, plenty of parents with unhappy memories would (strongly) discourage their children from getting involved with the remembered misery, and young students down the line would look at this relative exodus and, as usual, take their lead from those before them. For that reason, and that alone, if I were making the decisions I would re-align the curriculum and teaching goals first and then wait a few years for perceptions to settle before changing the educational status of the language.

Cú Giobach

Leto wrote: »

My concern is that if an announcement came tomorrow that Irish as it currently exists were to become an opt-in subject before this change in teaching focus, it would be on the receiving end of a backlash - a negative bounce, for lack of a better term. Some students would get out purely because they could, some current students who have slogged through the existing hames of a syllabus would get out to end the misery, plenty of parents with unhappy memories would (strongly) discourage their children from getting involved with the remembered misery, and young students down the line would look at this relative exodus and, as usual, take their lead from those before them. For that reason, and that alone, if I were making the decisions I would re-align the curriculum and teaching goals first and then wait a few years for perceptions to settle before changing the educational status of the language.

Well said.
This seems (and I emphasis "seems") to be what FG are aiming for with their current proposals.

NTMK

caseyann wrote: »

Where there is a will there is a way

so basically no
ive seen the process first hand for a relative who is rubbish and i mean rubbish and fail to get an exemption

anytime i ask the pro-irish side if the language is so strong why does it need to be compulsory after jc it gets ignored.

if you dont know the language after 14 years of learning it your not goin to know it after 16

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Please provide a link to the government agency called the 'Irish language enforcement Office'

The last time I provided you with a link, it was when you denied knowledge of the decline of Irish in the Gaeltacht. You don't know your subject very well at all.

This office enforces compliance with the laws that compel government bodies and public sector to use Irish.

deise go deo wrote: »

Provide a link for any law that makes Irish compulsory.

You must be kidding? You're already aware of laws forcing children to learn Irish. In fact you're fanatically in favour of such laws. The Official Langauges Act is mentioned on the site above, I am very surprised you are not aware of it.

deise go deo wrote: »

Making stuff up is childish

Denying easily provable facts is idiotic.

deise go deo wrote: »

MakingIrish speakers will be denied services in their native language, which happens to also an official language of the state, please explain how this is 'Better'

We save money by providing serviices in our common language.

RandomName2

Condi wrote: »

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Everyone knows that the Gaelteachts are political enclaves, albeit ones that are supported by Ireland as a whole. They discriminate against English speakers in multiple small ways - but truth to be told they are small rural areas that one doesn't have to live in if one doesn't. Personally I think the Gaelteachts should probably collectively get a home-rule government (although you would probably have to rule out Ring due to geographical constraint).

Mussolini allowing Vatican City to formally cede from Italy was one of his more intelligent moves.

RandomName2

NTMK wrote: »

so basically no
ive seen the process first hand for a relative who is rubbish and i mean rubbish and fail to get an exemption

anytime i ask the pro-irish side if the language is so strong why does it need to be compulsory after jc it gets ignored.

if you dont know the language after 14 years of learning it your not goin to know it after 16

In generally it would seem to be very ill-advised to seek an exemption. The immediate pay-off might be fie, but it may come back to bite you down the line! Repeating the LC just for Irish is not amusing.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This office enforces compliance with the laws that compel government bodies and public sector to use Irish.

That is the office of An Coimisineir Teanga, I asked for a link to the government agency called the 'Irish language enforcement Office' that you were talking about, or do you now admit that you made that up?

You must be kidding? You're already aware of laws forcing children to learn Irish. In fact you're fanatically in favour of such laws. The Official Langauges Act is mentioned on the site above, I am very surprised you are not aware of it.

Please provide a link. I am well aware of the Official languages act. It deals with internal government Adminestration, How it is a law Compelling Irish on anyone is beyond me.

I suppose the defence act is a law compelling the Army on the state:rolleyes:

Denying easily provable facts is idiotic.

What 'facts' have I denied.

We save money by providing serviices in our common language.

Please go into these savings in greater detail. Would they not mean that Irish speakers would be forced to use English?

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

In generally it would seem to be very ill-advised to seek an exemption. The immediate pay-off might be fie, but it may come back to bite you down the line! Repeating the LC just for Irish is not amusing.

Why exactly would you have to repeat the LC just for Irish?