Is Irish a dead language?

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

Why exactly would you have to repeat the LC just for Irish?

If you didn't sit Irish the first time (or alternatively if you failed it)

Obviously

marienbad

Leto wrote: »

All else being equal, I don't see a need for Irish to be compulsory for the Leaving Cert. Of course, life being a messy affair as usual, there's a caveat. All else is not equal in this case: as we're all acutely aware, Irish teaching in our schools arouses some very strong feelings and comes with a significant load of negative baggage. There are several reasons for that and we may dispute their relative importance, but I don't think anyone here will argue that this negativity does not exist.

What I would like to see is an inversion of the current approach in which students spend years learning lists of prepositions and conjugations from copybooks, before 'studying' poetry in which they don't understand the vocabulary (let along the imagery), before, belatedly, some spoken lines are rote-learned in the year preceding the Leaving Cert oral exam and tips for extracting 'key' words from semi-comprehended tapes are given in advance of the aural. A key problem that I see - and it's a baffling one - is that the Irish syllabus almost seems to be designed for students who already have a good grasp of it, rather than for students who are mainly learning it as a second language. And this in a country that doesn't do second languages well at the best of times. For the majority of students it is/would be a second language, and needs to be taught as such. On this note, I hope dubhthach won't mind my re-posting this well-made point regarding acquired competence in second languages. Hopefully it will go some way to addressing the concerns of those who think that the existing lack of fluency among school-leavers is in itself a damning indictment of Irish.

What I would like is for the language to be primarily heard and spoken in early classes so that the children can - shock! horror! - actually use it to express themselves to their teacher, their classmates, and (if mutually agreeable) their parents. I'm a fan of the idea of occasionally using Irish in the classroom while teaching other subjects. Aside from anything else, it could be a useful exercise for those subjects to get children thinking about how to explain something in a second language that they are comfortable with. At second level, Irish communication and Irish literature could easily be two separate subjects, which would help to disentangle much of the existing negative association.

My concern is that if an announcement came tomorrow that Irish as it currently exists were to become an opt-in subject before this change in teaching focus, it would be on the receiving end of a backlash - a negative bounce, for lack of a better term. Some students would get out purely because they could, some current students who have slogged through the existing hames of a syllabus would get out to end the misery, plenty of parents with unhappy memories would (strongly) discourage their children from getting involved with the remembered misery, and young students down the line would look at this relative exodus and, as usual, take their lead from those before them. For that reason, and that alone, if I were making the decisions I would re-align the curriculum and teaching goals first and then wait a few years for perceptions to settle before changing the educational status of the language.

Thank you for such a comprehensive and reasonable reply, food for thought.

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

If you didn't sit Irish the first time (or alternatively if you failed it)

Obviously

No, The question is why would you need to resit it? Why would someone just not resit it. There is no reason to resit it, you dont fail the LC just for not passing Irish.

Oasis_Dublin

Leto wrote: »

What I would like is for the language to be primarily heard and spoken in early classes so that the children can - shock! horror! - actually use it to express themselves to their teacher, their classmates, and (if mutually agreeable) their parents. I'm a fan of the idea of occasionally using Irish in the classroom while teaching other subjects. Aside from anything else, it could be a useful exercise for those subjects to get children thinking about how to explain something in a second language that they are comfortable with. At second level, Irish communication and Irish literature could easily be two separate subjects, which would help to disentangle much of the existing negative association.

My concern is that if an announcement came tomorrow that Irish as it currently exists were to become an opt-in subject before this change in teaching focus, it would be on the receiving end of a backlash - a negative bounce, for lack of a better term. Some students would get out purely because they could, some current students who have slogged through the existing hames of a syllabus would get out to end the misery, plenty of parents with unhappy memories would (strongly) discourage their children from getting involved with the remembered misery, and young students down the line would look at this relative exodus and, as usual, take their lead from those before them. For that reason, and that alone, if I were making the decisions I would re-align the curriculum and teaching goals first and then wait a few years for perceptions to settle before changing the educational status of the language.

+ 1. Reasonable.

AlexderFranke

Tá cúpla ceist agam daoibh.
An bhfuil an scoil nó múinteoir saor go leor inniu scileanna cumarsáide a mhúineadh ar feadh chuid-mhaith na gceachtanna Gaeilge? Mar tá iontas orm go bhfuil Gaeilge líofa ag roinnt Éireannach agus nach bhfuil bun-chomhrá Gaeilge ag roinnt eile tar éis fágáil na scoile coitianta.
An féidir le daltaí fillte nó tagtha go hÉireann déanach go leor chun saorú de na ceachtanna Gaeilge a fháil a bpáirt a ghlacadh iontu ar leibhéal níos ísle? Do léigh mé ó dhaltaí Gearmánaigh ar chaith bliain scoile in Éirinn gur ghlac siad páirt sna ceachtanna Gaeilge.
Is dóigh liom go bhfuil múineadh maith ann inniu ar roinnt scoileanna coitianta toisc nach raibh droch-chuimhneacha de na ceachtanna Gaeilge ag gach Éireannach ar bhuail mé leis nó léi in Éirinn.
D'inis aon dhuine dom go bhfuil cuid cuimhneacha uafásacha aige de réir múinidh na Gaeilge ní amháin ar scoil, ach gur scéal eile é an teanga a chleachtadh i gClub Chonradh na Gaeilge.

I have a few questions for you.
Is the school or the teacher free enough today to teach conversational skills during a considerable part of the Irish lessons? For I am estonished that some Irish persons have fluent Irish and others do not have the basics of Irish conversation after leaving an ordinary school.
Can students returned or come to Ireland late enough to get an exemption from Irish lessons take part at them at a lower level? I have read that German students who have spent a school year in Ireland have taken part at Irish lessons.
I think that there is good teaching at some ordinary schools because not every Irish person I met with in Ireland had bad rememberings of the Irish lessons.
One person told me that he had awful rememberings with regard to the teaching of Irish not only at school, but that practicing the language in the Club of the Gaelic League would be a different thing.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

That is the office of An Coimisineir Teanga, I asked for a link to the government agency called the 'Irish language enforcement Office'

The role of the office of the Language Commissioner is to Enforce Compliance with the Irish Language Laws.

deise go deo wrote: »

Please provide a link. I am well aware of the Official languages act. .... How it is a law Compelling Irish on anyone is beyond me.

Have you read the act?

(4) A person who fails or refuses to comply with a requirement under this section or who hinders or obstructs the Commissioner in the performance of his or her functions under this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €2,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.

deise go deo wrote: »

What 'facts' have I denied.

Thank you for asking:

1: You denied that anyone wants to replace English with Irish as the common language of Ireland.

2: You denied that Irish language use is declining in the Gaeltachtanna.

3: Most recently you're denying that anyone is compelled to use Irish.

deise go deo wrote: »

Please go into these savings in greater detail.

It's quite obvious that if we just use our common language (English), we can save money.

deise go deo wrote: »

Would they not mean that Irish speakers would be forced to use English?

Only if they were not already able to speak English. Certainly they're not liable to the same sanctions as those compelled to use Irish.

NTMK

RandomName2 wrote: »

In generally it would seem to be very ill-advised to seek an exemption. The immediate pay-off might be fie, but it may come back to bite you down the line! Repeating the LC just for Irish is not amusing.

An exemption would remove the requirement of irish at third level

NTMK

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Can students returned or come to Ireland late enough to get an exemption from Irish lessons take part at them at a lower level? I have read that German students who have spent a school year in Ireland have taken part at Irish lessons.

You can get an exemption if you meet certain terms but im not sure what they are

AlexderFranke

AT NTMK:
I know that you can get an exemption if you meet certain terms. But I wonder if there are certain practices if such students want to take part in Irish lessons. Those German exchange students who took part in Irish lessons did so voluntarily, of course.

Tá a fhios agam nach maith le gach dhalta na ceachtanna Gaeilge a dhéanamh ar scoil. Ach ar an taobh eile, ba cheart níos mó ceachtanna Gaeilge a eagrú thar lear do na daltaí nó/agus tuismitheoirí sin a chuireann fiú ar an nGaeilge. Smaoinim go háirithe ar tíortha agus áiteanna le mór-phobal Éireannach, mar shampla an Sasana nó Bostún. Mar sin, d´fhéadaí briseadh i bhfoghlaim na Gaeilge a sheachaint dóibh sin.

I know that not every student likes to do the Irish lessons at school. But on the other hand, more Irish lessons ought to be organized abroad for those students and/or parents that attach worth on Irish. I think especially countries and places with a great Irish community, for example England or Boston. By doing so, a break in learing Irish could be avoided for those.

Alex

Lord TSC

NTMK wrote: »

You can get an exemption if you meet certain terms but im not sure what they are

These are the categories of student who may apply to be exempted from the study of Irish:

* Students whose primary education up to 11 years of age was received in Northern Ireland or outside Ireland
* Students who were enrolled in a primary or post-primary school and who are now enrolling again after having been abroad. The student must have been abroad for at least three years. The student must be at least 11 years of age when re-enrolling.
* Students who function at an average or above-average level of ability, but who have a specific learning difficulty that is so severe that they cannot reach expected levels of attainment in their mother tongue.
* Students who have a general learning disability due to a serious intellectual impairment and who are not acquiring basic language skills in their mother tongue.
* Students who have a general learning disability on account of a serious sensory impairment, and who are not learning basic language skills in their mother tongue

Students from abroad who have no understanding of English, when enrolled, would only be required to study one language, either English or Irish.

Source: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/the_irish_education_system/exemption_from_irish.html

Focalbhach

RandomName2 wrote: »

Very annoyingly I cannot find the umpteen articles that widely publicised that figure :mad::mad::mad:

This is the nearest thing for a source:
E1.2 Billion (for this year) -->
http://www.ippn.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5877:walsh-urges-halving-irish-language-budget-independentie&catid=50:education-news&Itemid=158

For what it's worth, Seán Flynn in yesterday's Irish Times has the latest (though still out of date) figure at "up to" €500m:

Irish Times wrote:

The most up-to-date figures (from 2004) indicate that Irish-language education was costing up to €500 million a year.

AlexderFranke

Domsa, is é Israel an sampla den scoth do hathbheochan teanga ag éirí ag spreagadh chomh láidir nárbh fhéidir le héinne í a dhiúltú. Tá mé iontach corraithe ag stair na Ghiúdách agus Israeil! Ba í réabhlóid um na 20dí an dheis go deo chun filleadh ar an nGaeilge mar phríomh-theanga nuair a bhí athbheochan na hEabhraise ar lán-shiúl mar deá-shampla. Is dóigh liom go raibh an maoithneachas chomh feiliúnach sa tír ná raibh riamh chun íomha na Gaeilge a athrú go raidiciúil! Bhí easpa de phearsa nó grúpa charismaitic go leor ar son na teanga ann. In Israel, bhí pearsa mar sin ann mar a bhí Eliezer Ben Yehuda agus a lucht timpeall uaidh. Cuireadh Conradh na Gaeilge ar bun, ach go léir ní fuair sé a dhóthain neart chun an Éirinn a aistriú go tír Ghaelgeoir arís.

Ar ndóigh, d´obair cúpla fiorais ar son na hEabhraise. Ach ní athraíonn sé seo an fioras gur d´éirigh leo go hiomlán an aidhm a bhaint amach.


For me, Israel is the top example for a language revival that became so strongly spreaded that nobody could refuse it. I am pretty moved by the history of the Jews and Israel. The revolution around the 20ies was the perfect opportunity to revert to Irish as first language while the revival of Hebrew was going on very well as good example. I think that this mood in the country was as suitable as never again to change the image of Irish radically. There was a lack of a charismatic enough person or group in favour of the language. In Israel, there was such a person that was Eliezer Ben Yehuda and his people around him. The Gaelic League was founded, but it evidently it did not gain enough strength to return Ireland into an Irish-speaking country again.

Of course, a few facts have worked in favour of Hewbrew. But this does not change the fact that they have fully achieved their aim.
Alex

cyclopath2001

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Of course, a few facts have worked in favour of Hewbrew. But this does not change the fact that they have fully achieved their aim.
Alex

One of the most important facts was that Hebrew and Judaism are closely connected. Other facts were the displacement of the original majority population and restriction of rights of non Jews, and, in effect, non Hebrew speakers.

Would you admire the same measures being taken against the majority English speaking population here?

RandomName2

AlexderFranke wrote: »

For me, Israel is the top example for a language revival that became so strongly spreaded that nobody could refuse it. I am pretty moved by the history of the Jews and Israel. The revolution around the 20ies was the perfect opportunity to revert to Irish as first language while the revival of Hebrew was going on very well as good example. I think that this mood in the country was as suitable as never again to change the image of Irish radically. There was a lack of a charismatic enough person or group in favour of the language. In Israel, there was such a person that was Eliezer Ben Yehuda and his people around him. The Gaelic League was founded, but it evidently it did not gain enough strength to return Ireland into an Irish-speaking country again.

Of course, a few facts have worked in favour of Hewbrew. But this does not change the fact that they have fully achieved their aim.
Alex

That is totally true.

That having been said - the language 'revival' in Israel was entirely divisive in nature in relation to the resident Palestinians; it was always meant to be such. Hebrew was part of a general war effort to carve out territory for the Israelis.

Moreover, for Israelis to unite they would have to learn some language anyway! Some spoke English, many spoke Polish, some German, some Russian, etc. - Hebrew was designated as the medium above all.

So... none of this terribly relates to Ireland (apart from tenuous ways in which the Republican movement used Gaeilge as an excuse for war, etc.)

AlexderFranke

Ní heo í an áit le plé cúrsaí na comhlinte Israeli/Arabaigh. Seo cursaí le an-chuid plénna orthu féin. Ar ndóigh, ní mian liom do haon ghrúpa a bheith curtha faoi bhrú. Rud beag, is iad Gaeilge sa Tuisceart agus Eabhrais in Iosrael cosúil le a chéile. D´obair cur faoi bhrú na Ghiúdach ar fud an domhain agus a gcogadh do fhilleadh ar Iosrael ar son na hEabhraise agus d´obair cur faoi bhrú na gCaitliceach (an daonra dúchais) ar son na Gaeilge sa Tuisceart.
Ach bhí gluaiseacht na hEabhraise i bhfad níos láidre ná gluaiseacht na Gaeilge sa Tuisceart.

This here is not the place to discuss the Israelian-Arabian-conflict. These are matters for many discussions about themselves. Of course, I do not wish any group to be oppresses. A bit, Irish in the North and Hebrew in Israel are similar to each other. The oppression of the Jews around the world and their fight to return to Israel has worked for Hebrew and the oppression of Catholics (the indigenous population) worked for Irish in the North.
But the Hebrew movement was far stronger than the Irish movement in the North.

Alex

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

One of the most important facts was that Hebrew and Judaism are closely connected. Other facts were the displacement of the original majority population and restriction of rights of non Jews, and, in effect, non Hebrew speakers.

Would you admire the same measures being taken against the majority English speaking population here?

But I thaught compulsion couldent work Cyclopath? Or is it only Compulsion here, Or is it only when it relates to Irish?

Surely people choose to take up Hebrew, That was the biggest factor surly, just like it was for people taking up English here. Or is there a difference that I am not seeing?

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

But I thaught compulsion couldent work Cyclopath? Or is it only Compulsion here, Or is it only when it relates to Irish?

Surely people choose to take up Hebrew, That was the biggest factor surly, just like it was for people taking up English here. Or is there a difference that I am not seeing?

The way in which you are engaging with the Israeli analogy is unclear.

twinQuins

deise go deo wrote: »

But I thaught compulsion couldent work Cyclopath? Or is it only Compulsion here, Or is it only when it relates to Irish?

Surely people choose to take up Hebrew, That was the biggest factor surly, just like it was for people taking up English here. Or is there a difference that I am not seeing?

Yes. People were coming to Israel from all over the world and consequently speaking a variety of languages - in that case it was necessary to have one language which everyone could speak and help to reinforce the new national identity.

gsnapp

I personally think so as throughout secondary school i had no interest in learning irish as I know i would be moving to the states and felt that i should have a choice to select a more useful subject such as computer programming.I didnt even count irish for points in my leaving and im currntly a third year software developer out on work experiance

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

But I thaught compulsion couldent work Cyclopath? Or is it only Compulsion here, Or is it only when it relates to Irish?

Compulsion is wrong, whether it 'works' or not.

deise go deo wrote: »

people choose to take up Hebrew, That was the biggest factor surly, just like it was for people taking up English here. Or is there a difference that I am not seeing?

i don't think the Jews are any more surly than anyone else. They speak Hebrew as part of their choice in practicing their religion and culture. Having a separate language helps them stay apart from non Jews.

People here choose to speak English, it is our common language and unifies us. Some irish people choose to speak Irish, but for quite different reasons to those of the Jews.

Godge

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-lets-debunk-the-myth-of-irish-as-a-living-language-it-now-represents-failure-and-a-national-disorder-2551804.html

As always Myers is provocative.

But there are a number of points in his article that resonate. In particular, he makes a very good point about the Department of Education only having 1.5% who can work as Gaeilge. While the compulsory nature of Irish has been removed from the civil service, there is still a bonus in recruitment and promotion competitions for those who can speak both languages so this should result in the percentage in the Department having the ability to converse in Irish being higher than the general population. When you add in the fact that there are specific Irish language posts in the Department (subject school inspectors of Irish), it does suggest at first glance that Myers is right - 1.5% of the population able to speak Irish is the upper limit.

The only other reason for the low percentage is a point I have alluded to before - the absolutist or intolerant nature of the Irish language movement. Are civil servants reluctant to put their names forward as Irish speakers because they lack the confidence to deal with those who will expect every word of the conversation to be in top-quality Irish?

Dionysus

wrote:

... Myers....

:rolleyes:

Oasis_Dublin

"just watch how dirty it gets when the Gaelgoiri and the "cultural republicans" of post-terrorist Sinn Fein face the prospect of losing their precious shibboleth"

This line exemplifies why Myers cannot be taken seriously in relation to anything that can in anyway be deemed politically nationalist.

Focalbhach

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

"just watch how dirty it gets when the Gaelgoiri and the "cultural republicans" of post-terrorist Sinn Fein face the prospect of losing their precious shibboleth"

This line exemplifies why Myers cannot be taken seriously in relation to anything that can in anyway be deemed politically nationalist.

I'd suggest that - to take an article at random -this piece from last Friday exemplifies why Myers cannot be taken seriously in relation to... well, anything, really. His raison d'être is aggravation. Criticisms can be constructive, but I wouldn't expect many of those from Mr Myers.

Oasis_Dublin

Leto wrote: »

I'd suggest that - to take an article at random -this piece from last Friday exemplifies why Myers cannot be taken seriously in relation to... well, anything, really. His raison d'être is aggravation. Criticisms can be constructive, but I wouldn't expect many of those from Mr Myers.

He is particularly terrible when it comes to nationalism in Ireland though. This man once claimed, of Bloody Sunday 1920, that "shots were fired, who can say who began the shooting."

Kev_ps3

No it is not dead yet, although the enemy/invader is making his best attempt to try.

Judgement Day

gsnapp wrote: »

I personally think so as throughout secondary school i had no interest in learning irish as I know i would be moving to the states and felt that i should have a choice to select a more useful subject such as computer programming.I didnt even count irish for points in my leaving and im currntly a third year software developer out on work experiance

Did you study English?

AlexderFranke

Taobh leis an nGaeilge sa chóras oideachais, caitear a rá arís is arís gur cheart do Ghaelgeoirí le díogras ar bith roimpi úsáid as an teanga a bhaint lena bpáistí. Mar, sin í an bhealach is éifeachtaí chun teangacha a thabhairt ar aghaidh agus a choinneáil beo.

Besides Irish in the education system, it must be said again and again that Irish speakers with any attachment to it ought to use the language with their children. For, this is the most effective way to pass languages on and to keep them alive.

Oasis_Dublin

"We will overhaul the curriculum at second level and we will critically examine the effect of current training methods of teachers to teach. Irish as an optional subject for Leaving Certificate will only apply following consultations on both matters.
• We will allocate 50% of marks to oral Irish exams.
• We aim to double the proportion of Irish students sitting the Higher Level Leaving Certificate exam by
2018."

Let's not condemn FG just yet.

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

"We will overhaul the curriculum at second level and we will critically examine the effect of current training methods of teachers to teach. Irish as an optional subject for Leaving Certificate will only apply following consultations on both matters.
• We will allocate 50% of marks to oral Irish exams.
• We aim to double the proportion of Irish students sitting the Higher Level Leaving Certificate exam by
2018."

Let's not condemn FG just yet.

I'm happy as long as it's made optional within the five year term of government.