Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm happy as long as it's made optional within the five year term of government.

Michael Creed

Fine Gael Candidate for Cork North West has made an assurance that Irish will not be removed as compulsory language for the leaving certificate for a generation or two.

Public Speaking Ireland

Should be an overhaul on the way it's taught...
It can be done - where students actually enjoy learning it..

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Michael Creed

Could be just a backbencher saying that to win votes in a constituency where optional Irish isn't popular.

Maybe, and the fact he isn't being backed up with this by any other members adds strenght to the claim. There's no logical reason to promise optional Irish in the manifesto and then wait twenty years when they won't have a twenty year mandate.

And Enda Kenny's no spring chicken. :pac:

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Could be just a backbencher saying that to win votes in a constituency where optional Irish isn't popular.

Maybe, and the fact he isn't being backed up with this by any other members adds strenght to the claim. There's no logical reason to promise optional Irish in the manifesto and then wait twenty years when they won't have a twenty year mandate.

And Enda Kenny's no spring chicken. :pac:

They haven't promised optional Irish. They have promised consultation on the possibility of it being optional.

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm happy as long as it's made optional within the five year term of government.

No guarantees there anyway.

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

They haven't promised optional Irish. They have promised consultation on the possibility of it being optional.

They have promised, in their wording, they wrote will only apply following consultations on both matters not that it might apply.

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

No guarantees there anyway.

They wouldn't have wrote it in their manifesto if they didn't plan to implement it during their term.

Anyway do you think all those people were protesting outside the Dáil for nothing?

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They have promised, in their wording, they wrote will only apply following consultations on both matters not that it might apply.


They wouldn't have wrote it in their manifesto if they didn't plan to implement it during their term.

Anyway do you think all those people were protesting outside the Dáil for nothing?

Well they never actually said that they were going to make it optional during the next term in their manifestio. They said they would have a consultation in their manifestio so this is all that we can assume they will do in the next term.

I think that Enda should issue a statement outlining what it is that they intend to do.

ie If Irish will be made optional this term or not.

deise go deo

Majority oppose FG plan to make Irish optional

Second Poll confirms majority in favor of retaining Irish as a compulsory Subject.


A Poll conducted on behalf of the Irish Independent has found that 53% favor Keeping Irish as a Mandatory subject while 44% favor making it optional.

At least this one cannot be attacked for 'vested interests'

RandomName2

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Taobh leis an nGaeilge sa chóras oideachais, caitear a rá arís is arís gur cheart do Ghaelgeoirí le díogras ar bith roimpi úsáid as an teanga a bhaint lena bpáistí. Mar, sin í an bhealach is éifeachtaí chun teangacha a thabhairt ar aghaidh agus a choinneáil beo.

Besides Irish in the education system, it must be said again and again that Irish speakers with any attachment to it ought to use the language with their children. For, this is the most effective way to pass languages on and to keep them alive.

Well I presume that's how everyone here learned English.

(Or at least, I would hope so - depending on the education system as your sole means to learn English would have unpleasant results!)

Irish as the spoken language of the home has predominantly died out meaning that the educational aspect has taken an otherwise undue significance.

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well I presume that's how everyone here learned English.

(Or at least, I would hope so - depending on the education system as your sole means to learn English would have unpleasant results!)

Irish as the spoken language of the home has predominantly died out meaning that the educational aspect has taken an otherwise undue significance.

Well actually, outside the Gaelthacht, Irish as the family language is growing, There is an Organisation called Comhluadar that helps(Advice etc) family's to raise their kids through Irish.

The Gaelscoil movement is growing, Comhluadar is growing along with it.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Majority oppose FG plan to make Irish optional
Second Poll confirms majority in favor of retaining Irish as a compulsory Subject.

A Poll conducted on behalf of the Irish Independent has found that 53% favor Keeping Irish as a Mandatory subject while 44% favor making it optional.

At least this one cannot be attacked for 'vested interests'

While no one should treat anything said in the Indo as certain fact, how do you explain the considerable drop in numbers favouring compulsory Irish lessons, compared to the much higher figure of 61% produced by the survey sponsored by the Irish language lobby?

As usual, you show no empathy whatever for your fellow citizens who would be forced to learn Irish against their will. This is coupled by a breathtaking insouciance concerning the decline of native Irish speaking in the Gaeltacht.

AlexderFranke

Is trí fhilleadh ar an teanga dhúchasach mar an ceann labhartha sa bhaile ag tuismitheoirí ar fhoghlaim an teanga a fheidhmíonn athbheochán ar éirigh léi. Ó shin, chinn tuismitheoirí gan a dteanga dúchais a labhairt lena bpáistí mar a bhí an Béarla in Éirinn. Cén fáth nár cheart do thuismitheoirí inniu an bhealach mhalairteach a dhul? Foghlaimeoidh na páistí an Béarla ar aon chaoi.

It is through reverting to the indigenous languages as that one spoken at home by parents who have learnt the language that successful revival functions. Once, parents decided not to speak their native language to their children which in Ireland was English. Why should parents today not go the opposite way? The children will learn English at any rate.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

While no one should treat anything said in the Indo as certain fact, how do you explain the considerable drop in numbers favouring compulsory Irish lessons, compared to the much higher figure of 61% produced by the survey sponsored by the Irish language lobby?

How do you explain a survey carried out on behalf of a group with no interest in the language showing a majority in favor of keeping Irish compulsory?
Would you accept this as legitimate? Really it is up to you to show some evidence if you want to keep arguing that the majority are not in favor of keeping Irish as a core subject.

As usual, you show no empathy whatever for your fellow citizens who would be forced to learn Irish against their will. This is coupled by a breathtaking insouciance concerning the decline of native Irish speaking in the Gaeltacht.

How do you know its against their will? I know several people who think making Irish optional would be best for the language, they are in favor of the language its self.

There is a small minority who don't want to learn Irish and there is a very similar amount of people getting exempt every year, to claim that some one being in favor of making it optional means they are having Irish forced on them is pure lies.


There a few problems with the gaelthachts re Irish, the influx of non Irish speakers in the last 15 years and native speakers going to work in city's being one of them. I would like you to show me where I said otherwise,
There is evidence that the core Irish speaking population has stabilized over the last 10 - 15 years.
The number of family's receiving the grant has dropped only slightly in that period and in smaller gaelthachts it has increased.

deise go deo

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Is trí fhilleadh ar an teanga dhúchasach mar an ceann labhartha sa bhaile ag tuismitheoirí ar fhoghlaim an teanga a fheidhmíonn athbheochán ar éirigh léi. Ó shin, chinn tuismitheoirí gan a dteanga dúchais a labhairt lena bpáistí mar a bhí an Béarla in Éirinn. Cén fáth nár cheart do thuismitheoirí inniu an bhealach mhalairteach a dhul? Foghlaimeoidh na páistí an Béarla ar aon chaoi.

It is through reverting to the indigenous languages as that one spoken at home by parents who have learnt the language that successful revival functions. Once, parents decided not to speak their native language to their children which in Ireland was English. Why should parents today not go the opposite way? The children will learn English at any rate.

Hi Alexder.

Níl ach fáth amháin ann, Tá a lán daoine gan gaeilge maith sa tír, níl siad compordach gaeilge a úsáid leis na paistí. Níl muinín acu.

There really is only one good reason, and that is inability to speak Irish well ones self. People are not comfortable to use Irish with their kids, they dont have the confidence.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

How do you explain a survey carried out on behalf of a group with no interest in the language showing a majority in favor of keeping Irish compulsory?

You're avoiding the question....which was to explain the discrepency between the Indo's survey and that of the Lobby.

deise go deo wrote: »

Would you accept this as legitimate?

In neither survey do we know the actual questions put nor the sampling method. Just because a small majority wants (mostly others, not themselves) to be compelled, does not justify forcing people to speak Irish.

deise go deo wrote: »

There a few problems with the gaelthachts re Irish, the influx of non Irish speakers in the last 15 years and native speakers going to work in city's (sic) being one of them. I would like you to show me where I said otherwise,

You only became aware of the problem when I provided you with a link to the information.

@AlexandreFranke: The decline of Irish in the Gaeltacht shows that, just having Irish speaking parents is not enough to preserve the language in the face of indifference from the greater population. As you mentioned in relation to the Israeli example, other measures would need to be taken.

AlexderFranke

Tá agus níl. Má tá gluaiseacht láidir ar son athbheocháin teanga ann, beidh an-chuid daoine ag déanamh a ndíchill chun an teanga dhúchasach a fhoghlaim go maith chun í úsáid sa bhaile. Ar ndóigh, beifear ag tabhairt aire go deo de mhúineadh na teanga do pháistí, freisin, sa gcaoi go bhfuil an-ghreim ar an teanga ag na páistí den ghlúin nua nach n-úsáideann a dtuismitheoirí í sa bhaile. Tharla an scéal seo in Iosrael roimh chur ar bun an Stáit Iosrael (1948). Do labhair i gcónaí níos mó tuismitheoirí Eabhrais lena bpáistí agus thosaigh na scoileanna uilig a fheidhmiú ar nós na nGaelscoileanna in Éirinn don Ghaeilge san am céanna. Agus i rith an ama, tharla sé go bhfuil an Eabhrais mar theanga dúchais ag beagnach gach Ghiúdach beirthe in Iosrael.

Le dotháin tacaithe as an daonra, d´fhéadfadh scéal mar sin a bheith tarlaithe in Éirinn chomh maith. Bhí an seans ann sna 20idí in Éirinn toisc go raibh an mothúchan sa sochaí feiliúnach. Ach bhí easpa de phersaí caraismatice go leor ann ar a son.

Yes and no. If there is a strong movement in favor of language revival, many people will do their best to learn well the indigenous language in order to use it at home. Of course, high attention will be paid of the teaching of the language to children, too, so that children of the new generation whose parents do not use the language at home will also have a good grasp of the language. This happened in Israel before founding the State of Israel (1948). More and more parents spoke Hebrew with their children and the all schools began to function similar to the Gaelscoils in Ireland for Irish at the same time. And in the run of time, it has happened that nearly every Jew born in Israel has Hewbrew as native language.

With enough support from the population, such thing could have happened in Ireland as well. There was a chance in the 20ies in Ireland because the feeling in the society was suitable. But there was a lack of charismatic enough persons in favour of it.

AlexderFranke

To cyclopath:

You are right. The decline of used Irish in the Gaeltacht would not have taken place if Irish had become stronger all over Ireland. It is not enough to have considerable percentages of native speakers only in tiny, rural parts of the country. A considerable amount of parents that again give Irish as native language to their children all over the country could have fostered Irish. That will encourage others to get a reasonable grasp of the language as second language.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You're avoiding the question....which was to explain the discrepency between the Indo's survey and that of the Lobby.

Two different surveys, taken over 6 months apart by different polling companies dident show the exact same figure. What a shocker.

Its an 8 point difference. Labour support can change that much in one month.:rolleyes:

In neither survey do we know the actual questions put nor the sampling method. Just because a small majority wants (mostly others, not themselves) to be compelled, does not justify forcing people to speak Irish.

So the will of the minority should rule?:rolleyes:

Again, there is a difference between Irish being a Core subject for the LC and 'Forcing people to speak Irish' Why the hyperbole?

You only became aware of the problem when I provided you with a link to the information.

LOL.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Two different surveys, taken over 6 months apart by different polling companies dident show the exact same figure. What a shocker.

Its an 8 point difference. Labour support can change that much in one month.:rolleyes:

you're the one who thinks surveys are reliable.

deise go deo wrote: »

So the will of the minority should rule?:rolleyes:

Let your 'majority' take compulsory Irish lessons if that's what they want, and let the significant minority decide if they would like to learn Irish. That's the fairest way.

deise go deo wrote: »

Again, there is a difference between Irish being a Core subject for the LC and 'Forcing people to speak Irish' Why the hyperbole?

can you explain what that difference is! I know that you must find words like 'force' and 'compulsion' uncomfortable, they must remind of the unpleasant fact that not everyone wants to learn Irish. Why else would the subject be compulsory?

Focalbhach

deise go deo wrote: »

Two different surveys, taken over 6 months apart by different polling companies dident show the exact same figure. What a shocker.

Its an 8 point difference. Labour support can change that much in one month.:rolleyes:

AlexderFranke

An moladh aon uair an Ghaeilge a chur isteach mar ábhar éigeantach ar feadh roinnt na mblianta scoile sa Tuisceart?
Tar éis an Teastais Sóiséaraigh, bheadh sé ceart go leor an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh go roghnach. Ag an aois sin, is dóigh go méadaíonn an stádas éigeantach an drogall i dtreo na Gaeilge de na daltaí sin nach maith leo an Ghaeilge fiú amháin tar éis athchoiriú an chúraclaim. Is scéal eile é sa Ghaeltacht agus timpeall uaithi.
Ach le bhur dtoil, leanaigí an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh do ghach pháiste go dtí an dTeastas Sóiséarach agus déan athchóiriú ar an gcúraclam. Go dtí an aois sin, ní bhíonn tuairimí féin na ndaltaí ó thaobh go leor cúrsaí an tsaoil chomh socruithe sin. Ní ba dheá-rogha é an seans a bhaint de pháistí an teanga a fhoghlaim go luath a bhfuil a dtuismitheoirí in éadan é.
Chuala mé an clamhsán mar sin ó hÉireannaí freisin gur bhain an droch-mhúineadh seans áirithe díobh.

Has it any time been proposed to introduce Irish as mandarory subject during a part of the school years?
After the Junior Certificate, it would be alright to teach Irish optionally. At this age, the mandatory status will probably rise the reluctance of those students towards Irish who do not like Irish even after reforming the curriculum. It is a different thing is the Gaeltacht and around it.
But please continue to teach Irish to every student until the Junior Certificate and reform the curriculum! Until this age, the students' own opinions on many matters of life are not that settled, yet. It would not be a good choice to take the chance to learn the language early off children whose parents are against it.
I have heard the complaint like this from Irish persons, too, that the poor teaching at their school has taken a certain chance off them.

cyclopath2001

AlexderFranke wrote: »

But please continue to teach Irish to every student until the Junior Certificate and reform the curriculum! Until this age, the students' own opinions on many matters of life are not that settled, yet. It would not be a good choice to take the chance to learn the language early off children whose parents are against it.

This argument ignores the will of both the children and the parents where both have no desire to learn Irish. Forcing people to speak a language against their will is wrong, it seems that the Irish language lobby is unable to comprehend this.

conor.hogan.2

Unless you classify me and several thousand more irish people as zombies or just plain dead then no its not dead.

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

Majority oppose FG plan to make Irish optional

Second Poll confirms majority in favor of retaining Irish as a compulsory Subject.


A Poll conducted on behalf of the Irish Independent has found that 53% favor Keeping Irish as a Mandatory subject while 44% favor making it optional.

At least this one cannot be attacked for 'vested interests'

Ok, take this figure as accurate.

Why should 53% of the people force 44% of the people to do something they don't want, or more accurately, take the option to do what they want away from them?

What difference does it make to people if the option is given in this case?

The right thing to do is to give people the choice, if so many are in favour, they will choose to study Irish themselves. Why should they worry about those who don't choose it.

And you've got to remember, there is nothing illegal happening here, we're not talking about legalising murder/abortion/stealing etc., we're giving people more choice in what they get taught, and what their children get taught. This is not a bad thing.

Wibbs

astrofool wrote: »

What difference does it make to people if the option is given in this case?

The difference is the Irish language lobby are afraid the true level of support for the language would be plain to see. This is why on the one hand they trumpet the Irish peoples love of the language, yet bleat about putting said love to the test.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

The difference is the Irish language lobby are afraid the true level of support for the language would be plain to see. This is why on the one hand they trumpet the Irish peoples love of the language, yet bleat about putting said love to the test.

Wibbs, Do you deny that making Irish optional at it is now would put several obsticles in the way of people who wanted to take Irish for the LC?

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

Wibbs, Do you deny that making Irish optional at it is now would put several obsticles in the way of people who wanted to take Irish for the LC?

Are you saying that making Irish optional (at LC only) will deny somebody from being able to take the subject of Irish in school?

Are you saying that they will not have the choice to do Irish?

Must suck not to have a choice to do something or not.

Realistically, I'd imagine all schools will accommodate Irish into the LC curriculum as they do English and Maths (also optional), and those that don't have Irish will have a free period instead. (or it's possible the school might offer the choice of a language they don't normally teach, e.g. ancient greek, latin, spanish, german), if someone wanted to do both, then they do one outside of school hours (I did applied maths at 8:15 in the morning as it wasn't on the regular choice list/schedule).

Oasis_Dublin

The Irish language is more than a school subject; this is what the anti-any-form-of-Irish-culture brigade seem to want to dismiss. With due respect, a bunch of Wesley and St. Columba's students don't represent the opinions of those educated in more conventional secondary schools.

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

The Irish language is more than a school subject; this is what the anti-any-form-of-Irish-culture brigade seem to want to dismiss. With due respect, a bunch of Wesley and St. Columba's students don't represent the opinions of those educated in more conventional secondary schools.

Oasis, in what way is it more than a school subject ? This, I suspect , is for some the core issue.

And before you ask, it is far from Wesley/St.Columba type schools I attended.

Oasis_Dublin

It is something distinctly Irish; whether you love or hate the language, whether you enjoyed learning it at school or hated learning it. It is something that people in the Irish Free State have a shared experience of having learned. Something which cannot be said of other countries. Why is Irish more important than French (or any other non Irish language for that matter)? The language was pre-dominantly used on this island at one stage. While I am not so out of touch as to deny that this was over 500 years ago, it still should not be lost. Fine Gael propose that the oral exam should be worth 50% and I totally agree with this. Fianna Fáil say it would be "cultural vandalism" to down grade the status of the language. I also agree with this.