Is Irish a dead language?

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

It is something distinctly Irish; whether you love or hate the language, whether you enjoyed learning it at school or hated learning it. It is something that people in the Irish Free State have a shared experience of having learned. Something which cannot be said of other countries. Why is Irish more important than French (or any other non Irish language for that matter)? The language was pre-dominantly used on this island at one stage. While I am not so out of touch as to deny that this was over 500 years ago, it still should not be lost. Fine Gael propose that the oral exam should be worth 50% and I totally agree with this. Fianna Fáil say it would be "cultural vandalism" to down grade the status of the language. I also agree with this.

Oasis, firstly as an aside ,as a person person keen on language and its usage, why would you use the term Irish Free State ? As far as I am aware no such place exists and to my ears anyway is vaguely insulting ( echoes of Mrs Thatcher perhaps).

Are you saying the actual learning experience in school that we all share makes it culturally important ?

As to your comments that it should not be lost, I completely agree with you. I just dont accept your methodology .

Wibbs

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

The Irish language is more than a school subject; this is what the anti-any-form-of-Irish-culture brigade seem to want to dismiss. With due respect, a bunch of Wesley and St. Columba's students don't represent the opinions of those educated in more conventional secondary schools.

So now as well as a Irish loyalty badge, it's a class issue as well?

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

It is something distinctly Irish; whether you love or hate the language, whether you enjoyed learning it at school or hated learning it. It is something that people in the Irish Free State have a shared experience of having learned. Something which cannot be said of other countries. .

I agree with marienbad here. "Irish free state"? Wut? Sorry I'm not seeing your logic here. Whether you love or hate it or the learning of it, it doesn't matter, because it's some notion of Irishness for the whole of the nation?

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

this is what the anti-any-form-of-Irish-culture brigade seem to want to dismiss.

This is nothing but a straw-man argument.

There is no 'anti-any-form-of-Irish-culture' brigade, except in the heads of some over-zealous Irish language enthusiasts who want to impose their linguistic choice on others.

Every Irish person has the right to decide for themselves, what their culture is. We don't need cultural commissars to tell us what language we must speak or what songs we must sing.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is nothing but a straw-man argument.

There is no 'anti-any-form-of-Irish-culture' brigade, except in the heads of some over-zealous Irish language enthusiasts who want to impose their linguistic choice on others.

Every Irish person has the right to decide for themselves, what their culture is. We don't need cultural commissars to tell us what language we must speak or what songs we must sing.

Songs we must sing? Oasis, famous Irish republicans with their swirling Union Flag guitars and support of England in the world cup. Straw-man argument?

Are you attempting to suggest that all culture is bottom up? Education plays no part?

Oasis_Dublin

marienbad wrote: »

Oasis, firstly as an aside ,as a person person keen on language and its usage, why would you use the term Irish Free State ? As far as I am aware no such place exists and to my ears anyway is vaguely insulting ( echoes of Mrs Thatcher perhaps).

Are you saying the actual learning experience in school that we all share makes it culturally important ?

As to your comments that it should not be lost, I completely agree with you. I just dont accept your methodology .

I've already explained the use of the term "Irish Free State." No real need to repeat it in this thread again. Any suggestion that it was a veiled reference of loyalty to a Gaggs Thatcher is outrageously disgusting.

Going to school is certainly a cultural experience. Things we learn at school certain make up what our culture is. I can't see how anyone should reasonably deny it.

Reform it. That's the answer.

Oasis_Dublin

Wibbs wrote: »

So now as well as a Irish loyalty badge, it's a class issue as well?

I agree with marienbad here. "Irish free state"? Wut? Sorry I'm not seeing your logic here. Whether you love or hate it or the learning of it, it doesn't matter, because it's some notion of Irishness for the whole of the nation?

Class? I'm pretty certain, being friendly with quite a few students from both schools, that class is certainly not an issue in my mind. More, political and religious background. A school selling poppies is not the norm in the Irish Free State. Please do not make it into something it is not.

Will you please make some sense? You understand the idea of nationality I can only presume.

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I've already explained the use of the term "Irish Free State." No real need to repeat it in this thread again. Any suggestion that it was a veiled reference of loyalty to a Gaggs Thatcher is outrageously disgusting.

Going to school is certainly a cultural experience. Things we learn at school certain make up what our culture is. I can't see how anyone should reasonably deny it.

Reform it. That's the answer.

Hello Oasis. now you are really losing me ?? Can you tell me the tread you are referencing re Irish free State , and I will look it up myself.

Of course what we learn in school goes to make up our culture , no one would disagree with that. But it is not all of even most of what makes us Irish. But do I get a hint that some can be more ''Irish'' than others ?

Your comments on the sale of poppies would seem to re-enforce that notion ?

Oasis_Dublin

marienbad wrote: »

Hello Oasis. now you are really losing me ?? Can you tell me the tread you are referencing re Irish free State , and I will look it up myself.

Of course what we learn in school goes to make up our culture , no one would disagree with that. But it is not all of even most of what makes us Irish. But do I get a hint that some can be more ''Irish'' than others ?

Your comments on the sale of poppies would seem to re-enforce that notion ?

Again, you are trying to suggest that I believe there is only one way to define the Irish nation. Speaking from the POV of someone whose Grandfather was in the Irish Army but whose grand-uncle fought in the Battle of El-Alamein (recently with a featured picture in the Longford Leader Newspaper). Someone whose grandfather on one side was a spotter for the GAA at "foreign sports'" matches while his grandfather on the other side got kicked out of the GAA for playing for an Irish league soccer team. Someone who played GAA but has supports the national soccer and rugby teams whenever he can. Someone who loves an auld Dubliners' tune but equally loves a bit of Blur.

I'm not trying to suggest Irish = Catholic, white, Irish speaking, GAA members who dance at the cross roads because then I would be ruling myself out of the Irish nation.

The language is more than a school subject. I have justified it now, I won't answer the question again. It seems pointless to me. I've survived being held at gunpoint and being forced to do Irish for 14 years and now I appreciate the language. Why should my opinion be discounted?

Oasis_Dublin

Oh and the poppies point, bearing in mind my grand-uncle. Poppies being sold in Irish secondary schools is not normal, don't attempt to claim it is. I never said it was wrong, just merely abnormal.

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Again, you are trying to suggest that I believe there is only one way to define the Irish nation. Speaking from the POV of someone whose Grandfather was in the Irish Army but whose grand-uncle fought in the Battle of El-Alamein (recently with a featured picture in the Longford Leader Newspaper). Someone whose grandfather on one side was a spotter for the GAA at "foreign sports'" matches while his grandfather on the other side got kicked out of the GAA for playing for an Irish league soccer team. Someone who played GAA but has supports the national soccer and rugby teams whenever he can. Someone who loves an auld Dubliners' tune but equally loves a bit of Blur.

I'm not trying to suggest Irish = Catholic, white, Irish speaking, GAA members who dance at the cross roads because then I would be ruling myself out of the Irish nation.

The language is more than a school subject. I have justified it now, I won't answer the question again. It seems pointless to me. I've survived being held at gunpoint and being forced to do Irish for 14 years and now I appreciate the language. Why should my opinion be discounted?

Your opinion should not, under any circumstances be discounted and thank you for the clear answer. I just did'nt get your previous references ( and still dont on the free state ).

One can still love the language and not discount the opinion of others too though.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Poppies being sold in Irish secondary schools is not normal, don't attempt to claim it is. I never said it was wrong, just merely abnormal.

'Unusual' might be a less judgemental term.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

'Unusual' might be a less judgemental term.

Perhaps.

Hasschu

The Irish language died an unnatural death in the decades after the famine and by the turn of the 19th/20th century the corpse was decidedly chilly. The problem is "last rites" were not performed and the gov't (god bless 'em) has spent hundreds of millions trying to revive the corpse. We have this great fear of being unable to differentiate ourselves from the "barbarians" to the East now that we are fully 100% immersed in their culture. It is our lack of confidence, faux pride, as well as our immaturity, political dishonesty, chancer mentality, surface religiosity and firm belief that there is an easy way out that is causing us to cling like grim death to the last vestiges of our Celtic heritage. We have to wake up, smell the tay, join the world and get on with life. Leave nostalgia behind Sean and Sheila there is intelligent life out there beyond the ocean far and wide. Sure I have seen it with me own eyes.

Judgement Day

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

The Irish language is more than a school subject; this is what the anti-any-form-of-Irish-culture brigade seem to want to dismiss. With due respect, a bunch of Wesley and St. Columba's students don't represent the opinions of those educated in more conventional secondary schools.

Quite, but they do represent in some ways the attitude of many in the minority community who resent being forced to learn Irish. For many, and I include myself, it is alien to our culture and there's no need to retort that the majority community are forced to learn English - that's in their own best interests.

deise go deo

Judgement Day wrote: »

Quite, but they do represent in some ways the attitude of many in the minority community who resent being forced to learn Irish. For many, and I include myself, it is alien to our culture and there's no need to retort that the majority community are forced to learn English - that's in their own best interests.

LOL, Please explain how learning Shakespeare is in anyones 'best interest'.

To what minority, that thinks the Irish language is 'alien', are you referring? Unionists in NI may feel this way, but they are not forced to learn Irish.

Southern Loyalists like this group :- Reform Movement May consider themselves to be such a minority to whom Irish is alien. But then again, the clear will of the majority is that Irish remain a core subject for the LC.

For people like the above mentioned, it is not overly difficult to get an exemption, or failing that, they can always just refuse to study Irish, if they feel strongly about it.

Oasis_Dublin

Hasschu wrote: »

The Irish language died an unnatural death in the decades after the famine and by the turn of the 19th/20th century the corpse was decidedly chilly. The problem is "last rites" were not performed and the gov't (god bless 'em) has spent hundreds of millions trying to revive the corpse. We have this great fear of being unable to differentiate ourselves from the "barbarians" to the East now that we are fully 100% immersed in their culture. It is our lack of confidence, faux pride, as well as our immaturity, political dishonesty, chancer mentality, surface religiosity and firm belief that there is an easy way out that is causing us to cling like grim death to the last vestiges of our Celtic heritage. We have to wake up, smell the tay, join the world and get on with life. Leave nostalgia behind Sean and Sheila there is intelligent life out there beyond the ocean far and wide. Sure I have seen it with me own eyes.

Purely ignorant. The stamps for Australia, Canada, UK, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Austria and France show your last few lines up for the nonsense that they are.

The language was also in decline before the Famine. All together, a pretty ill-informed post.

Language aside, there is a difference between Irish and English culture.

Oasis_Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Quite, but they do represent in some ways the attitude of many in the minority community who resent being forced to learn Irish. For many, and I include myself, it is alien to our culture and there's no need to retort that the majority community are forced to learn English - that's in their own best interests.

Learning of English and Irish is in the nation's best interest. I'm still not sure why there is confusion.

How is it alien to your culture? Have you ever read a road sign in the Irish Free State?

deise go deo

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Have you ever read a road sign in the Irish Free State?

Ireland has been a Republic since 1949, It says so on the map and everything. Insisting on calling it the Free state when it has not been for all of my lifetime, and I have to guess all of your lifetime to, is just silly.

Oasis_Dublin

deise go deo wrote: »

Ireland has been a Republic since 1949, It says so on the map and everything. Insisting on calling it the Free state when it has not been for all of my lifetime, and I have to guess all of your lifetime to, is just silly.

It's been a Republic in all but name since 1937. Doesn't take away from the fact that the state we live in is Irish and free and it is the only such state around the world... hence the Irish Free State.

enda1

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

It's been a Republic in all but name since 1937. Doesn't take away from the fact that the state we live in is Irish and free and it is the only such state around the world... hence the Irish Free State.

Free of what? And why capitalise the word 'free'? Unless its part of the actual name of the country, the word shouldn't be capitalised. The country is called Ireland or Éire. That's it. There's no ambiguity other than of course the choice of language.

RandomName2

enda1 wrote: »

Free of what? And why capitalise the word 'free'? Unless its part of the actual name of the country, the word shouldn't be capitalised. The country is called Ireland or Éire. That's it. There's no ambiguity other than of course the choice of language.

No, the name of the country is the Republic of Ireland.

There is no country called Ireland

And no country called Eire since Ireland became a republic (hence the name Republic of Ireland).

I think that as Gaeilge it has always been called Eire, but that is of little signifiance (for instance, Irish would never be used as the primary medium in which the legal definition of the state is formed, and as no other country uses Irish, the word Eire is indigenous only to a small minority of this country- and everyone in the Republic will know what they are talking about!)

Oasis Dublin sort of started digging a hole for himself in using the term Irish Free State because (a) ROI has not been known as that for a very long time and (b) the use of the term "Irish Free State" has significant political connoctations that are hard to address in any meaningful fashion in a thread talking about the Irish language!

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

LOL, Please explain how learning Shakespeare is in anyones 'best interest'.

To what minority, that thinks the Irish language is 'alien', are you referring? Unionists in NI may feel this way, but they are not forced to learn Irish.

Southern Loyalists like this group :- Reform Movement May consider themselves to be such a minority to whom Irish is alien. But then again, the clear will of the majority is that Irish remain a core subject for the LC.

For people like the above mentioned, it is not overly difficult to get an exemption, or failing that, they can always just refuse to study Irish, if they feel strongly about it.

Sheeeesh...

Learning Shakespeare is in your own best interest because it could hopefully improve your grasp of English!

The Irish language is culturally alien to anybody it is culturally alien to!

The same way that Old Irish would be culturally alien to you deise! It doesn't matter if there are historical ties that influence your current culture - in that case, as I have previously said, we would all be learning and speaking Latin - LOOK! LOOK! THE BOOK OF KELLS!.

This has all been discussed before! :pac:

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

Sheeeesh...

Learning Shakespeare is in your own best interest because it could hopefully improve your grasp of English!

The Irish language is culturally alien to anybody it is culturally alien to!

The same way that Old Irish would be culturally alien to you deise! It doesn't matter if there are historical ties that influence your current culture - in that case, as I have previously said, we would all be learning and speaking Latin - LOOK! LOOK! THE BOOK OF KELLS!.

This has all been discussed before! :pac:

Learning Irish will help improve my grasp of English too, How learning an outmoded form of English is beneficial to learning English, more than just learning all the other subjects through English is beyond me.

As for Irish being 'culturally alien', It may well be to Unionists, They as a self identifying group would Hold Irish to be culturally alien, But other than them(and their southern Counterparts) I do not see much evidience of any self identifying minority group that feels Irish is 'alien' to them.

Not that it is in any way relevant either way.

I would not consider Old Irish to be 'Alien', why would I? It is a historical part of this Islands culture. For it to be 'Alien' I would have to consider it to have nothing to do with me or my heritage.

Not learning Latin dose not necessarily make it 'Alien', it has historical significance to this country, Old Irish more so, but again, It is a historical part of our heritage, Modern Irish is a present day part of Ireland's Culture.

enda1

RandomName2 wrote: »

No, the name of the country is the Republic of Ireland.

There is no country called Ireland

And no country called Eire since Ireland became a republic (hence the name Republic of Ireland).

I think that as Gaeilge it has always been called Eire, but that is of little signifiance (for instance, Irish would never be used as the primary medium in which the legal definition of the state is formed, and as no other country uses Irish, the word Eire is indigenous only to a small minority of this country- and everyone in the Republic will know what they are talking about!)

Oasis Dublin sort of started digging a hole for himself in using the term Irish Free State because (a) ROI has not been known as that for a very long time and (b) the use of the term "Irish Free State" has significant political connoctations that are hard to address in any meaningful fashion in a thread talking about the Irish language!

Jesus, I can't believe people are this misinformed about their own country...

http://www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf

In particular article 4 may be of interest.

Also as part of the Good Friday Agreement we formally asked the UK to stop calling us by the makey upy name "The Republic of Ireland".

Cú Giobach

RandomName2 wrote: »

No, the name of the country is the Republic of Ireland.

There is no country called Ireland

And no country called Eire since Ireland became a republic (hence the name Republic of Ireland).

I think that as Gaeilge it has always been called Eire, but that is of little signifiance (for instance, Irish would never be used as the primary medium in which the legal definition of the state is formed, and as no other country uses Irish, the word Eire is indigenous only to a small minority of this country- and everyone in the Republic will know what they are talking about!)

The official name of this country is Ireland in English and Éire in Irish.
It is described as The Republic of Ireland but this is not the official name.

Article 4 of the constitution states:
"The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."

The UN even lists Ireland as Ireland.
Shame on people not knowing the name of their own country.

enda1 got there before me (was reading the UN list of countries )

Iwasfrozen

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The official name of this country is Ireland in English and Éire in Irish.
It is described as The Republic of Ireland but this is not the official name.

Article 4 of the constitution states:
"The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."

The UN even lists Ireland as Ireland.
Shame on people not knowing the name of their own country.

enda1 got there before me (was reading the UN list of countries )

The strange thing about the constitutional position is that "Éire" is the official name in every language except English.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The strange thing about the constitutional position is that "Éire" is the official name in every language except English.

Ya, It should be Éire in English too.:D

RandomName2

enda1 wrote: »

Jesus, I can't believe people are this misinformed about their own country...

http://www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf

In particular article 4 may be of interest.

Also as part of the Good Friday Agreement we formally asked the UK to stop calling us by the makey upy name "The Republic of Ireland".

You are quoting BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, which, of course, predates our becomming a republic...

RandomName2

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The strange thing about the constitutional position is that "Éire" is the official name in every language except English.

Not for many years- my old history teahcer used to rant when foreigners still believed it to be called Eire.

Mind you, all the constitutional window-dressing since we actually gained independence has not been terribly edifying.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

Learning Irish will help improve my grasp of English too, How learning an outmoded form of English is beneficial to learning English, more than just learning all the other subjects through English is beyond me.

As for Irish being 'culturally alien', It may well be to Unionists, They as a self identifying group would Hold Irish to be culturally alien, But other than them(and their southern Counterparts) I do not see much evidience of any self identifying minority group that feels Irish is 'alien' to them.

Not that it is in any way relevant either way.

I would not consider Old Irish to be 'Alien', why would I? It is a historical part of this Islands culture. For it to be 'Alien' I would have to consider it to have nothing to do with me or my heritage.

Not learning Latin dose not necessarily make it 'Alien', it has historical significance to this country, Old Irish more so, but again, It is a historical part of our heritage, Modern Irish is a present day part of Ireland's Culture.

Stop being pedantic but actually understand:

Old Irish is alien to you insofar that if everyone in Ireland spoke Old Irish, and none of them spoke modern Irish or English, you would be completely culturally isolated. This is completely obvious!

Nonetheless, Old Irish has had a bearing on your current culture - but the same can be said of Welsh, Middle English, Norwegian dialects (including Old English), Scottish and Latin. You will put Old Irish on a higher pedestal than the other languages mentioned above, but that would be hardly justified from a historical point of view! Remember that the language of ecclesiastics was Latin and the language of administration (on a high level) was Middle English -Norman-Anglo-French since the Norman conquests... and English-Gaeilge since c.15th century and English c.17th century onwards....

Irish has informed Unionist cultural identity whether or not they want to accept it (they would probably have done so at the beginning of the 20th century when they identified themselves as Irish people wishing to be within the union).

Either way when you are using the word 'alien' you must be consistent, or at the very least engage with the context within which the word has been used, otherwise one's arguments become verbal salad.


EDIT: And Shakespere is modern English btw! This is, not Middle English (like for instance, Chaucer)