Is Irish a dead language?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Ya, It should be Éire in English too.:D

No it shouldn't. Here's the quote from Bunreacht na hÉireann that was already posted before but I'm posting it again just 'cos.

Article 4 wrote:

The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

RandomName2 wrote:

Not for many years- my old history teahcer used to rant when foreigners still believed it to be called Eire.

Mind you, all the constitutional window-dressing since we actually gained independence has not been terribly edifying.

Again I refer you to the above. The constitution doesn't lie.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No it shouldn't. Here's the quote from Bunreacht na hÉireann that was already posted before but I'm posting it again just 'cos.



Again I refer you to the above. The constitution doesn't lie.

I know what it is, I am saying what it should be.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

I know what it is, I am saying what it should be.

oh ok.

enda1

RandomName2 wrote: »

You are quoting BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, which, of course, predates our becomming a republic...

Do you seriously still believe you are correct, that the name is not Ireland/Éire but rather "The Republic of Ireland"?

I am a man, and my name is Enda.
My name is not, 'The Man of Enda'.

Ireland can be a republic without including this concept in its name you know.

RandomName2

enda1 wrote: »

Do you seriously still believe you are correct, that the name is not Ireland/Éire but rather "The Republic of Ireland"?

I am a man, and my name is Enda.
My name is not, 'The Man of Enda'.

Ireland can be a republic without including this concept in its name you know.

Okay the Republic of Ireland Act states:

"It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."


However, the offiicial name did not actually change, even though the country of Ireland is referred to as the Republic of Ireland both by the British government (generally) and by the Irish government (occasionally). The ambiguity surrounding the differnece between Ireland (landmass) and Ireland (country) is a bit of a pain unfortunately.

However, I must concede that you are correct. :pac:

enda1

RandomName2 wrote: »

Okay the Republic of Ireland Act states:

"It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."


However, the offiicial name did not actually change, even though the country of Ireland is referred to as the Republic of Ireland both by the British government (generally) and by the Irish government (occasionally). The ambiguity surrounding the differnece between Ireland (landmass) and Ireland (country) is a bit of a pain unfortunately.

However, I must concede that you are correct. :pac:

I think the name of the island should be changed. That would remove the ambiguity nicely.

Maybe call it Hibernia after its Latin name.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

I know what it is, I am saying what it should be.

Eire is better because it is mono-syllabic, shorter, and reduces the ambiguity between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

However, it increases confusion by changing the name of the country again (and a retrograde transition, at that), and whether or not the name would include a fada (which would be inconvenient electronically). It also would seem to place Gaeilge in a position of great significance in terms of national identity.

I suspect that your preference for the name Eire would be based almost solely upon the last point - which I personally think is a negative!

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

Eire is better because it is mono-syllabic, shorter, and reduces the ambiguity between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

However, it increases confusion by changing the name of the country again (and a retrograde transition, at that), and whether or not the name would include a fada (which would be inconvenient electronically). It also would seem to place Gaeilge in a position of great significance in terms of national identity.

I suspect that your preference for the name Eire would be based almost solely upon the last point - which I personally think is a negative!

It would not be a retrograde step, It would be a forward step, Irish is part of Irelands future, and a Bilingual Ireland is what is aimed for.

As for placing Gaeilge in a position of great significance, Too late, it already is. Éire is already the first Offical name of the state, as Irish is the first official Language.

Ireland is its secondary name. Proof you say? Take the euro coin out of your pocket and tell me which name is on it, Éire or Ireland?

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

It would not be a retrograde step, It would be a forward step, Irish is part of Irelands future, and a Bilingual Ireland is what is aimed for.

As for placing Gaeilge in a position of great significance, Too late, it already is. Éire is already the first Offical name of the state, as Irish is the first official Language.

Ireland is its secondary name. Proof you say? Take the euro coin out of your pocket and tell me which name is on it, Éire or Ireland?

I now officially give up.

(in this thread, at least)

MorganG831

Welsh is dying a lot more I think

Enkidu

MorganG831 wrote: »

Welsh is dying a lot more I think

Welsh is in a much healthier state than Irish, there are much more habitual speakers. Also Welsh is spoken out in the street in very large parts of Wales, unlike Irish which even if people in the area have it, you'll only hear English all the time except in the strongest Gaeltacht areas.

Enkidu

RandomName2 wrote: »

Norwegian dialects (including Old English),

Technical nitpick: Old English was not a dialect of Norwegian as it is a West Germanic language not a North Germanic language.

Oasis_Dublin

enda1 wrote: »

Free of what? And why capitalise the word 'free'? Unless its part of the actual name of the country, the word shouldn't be capitalised. The country is called Ireland or Éire. That's it. There's no ambiguity other than of course the choice of language.

Free. I'm not sure why it has to be free of anything to make it free

Oasis_Dublin

RandomName2 wrote: »

No, the name of the country is the Republic of Ireland.

There is no country called Ireland

And no country called Eire since Ireland became a republic (hence the name Republic of Ireland).

I think that as Gaeilge it has always been called Eire, but that is of little signifiance (for instance, Irish would never be used as the primary medium in which the legal definition of the state is formed, and as no other country uses Irish, the word Eire is indigenous only to a small minority of this country- and everyone in the Republic will know what they are talking about!)

Oasis Dublin sort of started digging a hole for himself in using the term Irish Free State because (a) ROI has not been known as that for a very long time and (b) the use of the term "Irish Free State" has significant political connoctations that are hard to address in any meaningful fashion in a thread talking about the Irish language!

I can only assume this has been dealt with subsequently but you are 100% incorrect. The name of the state is Éire or Ireland in the English language. If this is the level of knowledge that the anti-anything-remotely-culturally-Irish possesses on the constitution then I feel my position has been justified.

The use of the term Irish Free State is purely for sh*ts and giggles, as previously explained. I get a laugh out people claiming on the one hand that we should destroy the Irish language, paint over the Irish on street signs and accept that we are west-Britons but on the other hand, get their knickers in a twist when I use a term which the British designed for us. It is the height of hypocrisy and this Irish Free Stater (!) finds it highly amusing.

Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin.

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I can only assume this has been dealt with subsequently but you are 100% incorrect. The name of the state is Éire or Ireland in the English language. If this is the level of knowledge that the anti-anything-remotely-culturally-Irish possesses on the constitution then I feel my position has been justified.

The use of the term Irish Free State is purely for sh*ts and giggles, as previously explained. I get a laugh out people claiming on the one hand that we should destroy the Irish language, paint over the Irish on street signs and accept that we are west-Britons but on the other hand, get their knickers in a twist when I use a term which the British designed for us. It is the height of hypocrisy and this Irish Free Stater (!) finds it highly amusing.

Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin.

Hello Oasis, and while you are having a laugh and a giggle you continue to re-enforce the stereotype in the mind if the general public of the pro language movement consisting of a self-selecting set of elitists who take it upon themselves to define who and what constitutes Irish and Irishness.

Ignoring the racism in your your tirade on free staters and west brits and the hypocrisy inherent in that, your accusation that those who are against compulsion want to destroy the language is just silly.

Still, thanks for the explanation on your use of the term Irish Free State, which you declined to give me in an earlier post . And by the way when I made an allusion connecting the name and Mrs Thatcher (which you misunderstood) I notice you were quick to get your knickers in a twist (what a West Brit expression !)

Is mise le meas, Marienbad_ Ireland

RandomName2

marienbad wrote: »

Hello Oasis, and while you are having a laugh and a giggle you continue to re-enforce the stereotype in the mind if the general public of the pro language movement consisting of a self-selecting set of elitists who take it upon themselves to define who and what constitutes Irish and Irishness.

Ignoring the racism in your your tirade on free staters and west brits and the hypocrisy inherent in that, your accusation that those who are against compulsion want to destroy the language is just silly.

Still, thanks for the explanation on your use of the term Irish Free State, which you declined to give me in an earlier post . And by the way when I made an allusion connecting the name and Mrs Thatcher (which you misunderstood) I notice you were quick to get your knickers in a twist (what a West Brit expression !)

Is mise le meas, Marienbad_ Ireland

Clearly you can ascribe everything he says to sh*ts and giggles, thus when he is factually wrong (which he consistently is) it is merely you who are incorrect for ever having taken him literally when everything he says consists of highbrow irony.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish is part of Irelands future,

I see you have difficulty with the Tuiseal Gineadeach in English as well as in Irish.

deise go deo wrote: »

a Bilingual Ireland is what is aimed for.

This is not correct. the main aim of the Irish Language Movement is the reinstatement of Irish as the common tongue of Ireland. it says so on the 'about' page on the Movement's web site. The term 'bilingualism' is being abused in this case as the Movement intends that only Irish/English bilingualism will be promoted and then only until their ultimate goal of restoring an all Irish speaking Ireland. Far from looking to the future, the words 'restore' and 'reinstate', used by the Movement clearly betray that it is the past that they wish to bring us to.

deise go deo wrote: »

As for placing Gaeilge in a position of great significance, Too late, it already is.

Except on the lips of the majority of Irish people.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I see you have difficulty with the Tuiseal Gineadeach in English as well as in Irish.

:rolleyes:

This is not correct. the main aim of the Irish Language Movement is the reinstatement of Irish as the common tongue of Ireland. it says so on the 'about' page on the Movement's web site. The term 'bilingualism' is being abused in this case as the Movement intends that only Irish/English bilingualism will be promoted and then only until their ultimate goal of restoring an all Irish speaking Ireland. Far from looking to the future, the words 'restore' and 'reinstate', used by the Movement clearly betray that it is the past that they wish to bring us to.

Conradh na Gaeilge =/= the Language movement. It is just one(and not even the biggest) organisation among many.

As for your waffle, give it up, if pedantry is all you have then it is just embarrassing. really, just stop before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

As I said:

a Bilingual Ireland is what is aimed for.

Ireland is fortunate to have English, one of the world’s most widespread forms of communication, as its other official language. Encouraging the strengthening of Irish in light of the established domestic role of English involves a policy of bilingualism since most Irish people’s communicative needs are met by English. Encouraging a wider knowledge and use of Irish offers the potential of bilingual competence throughout the population, which is an important prospect supportive of Ireland’s widest social, educational, technological and economic interests. English does not require institutional support and historical evidence of the Irish genius in its use is ample. It has been well documented that two-language proficiency, especially highly skilled bilingualism developed at an early stage, stimulates many cognitive and attitudinal benefits in children. Adding high levels of active knowledge of Irish to English therefore, involves a plan for bilingualism throughout the Irish population offering intellectual, socio-economic and cultural resources and benefits for individuals and ultimately the whole of society.

20-YEAR STRATEGY FOR THE IRISH LANGUAGE

Oasis_Dublin

marienbad wrote: »

Hello Oasis, and while you are having a laugh and a giggle you continue to re-enforce the stereotype in the mind if the general public of the pro language movement consisting of a self-selecting set of elitists who take it upon themselves to define who and what constitutes Irish and Irishness.

Ignoring the racism in your your tirade on free staters and west brits and the hypocrisy inherent in that, your accusation that those who are against compulsion want to destroy the language is just silly.

Still, thanks for the explanation on your use of the term Irish Free State, which you declined to give me in an earlier post . And by the way when I made an allusion connecting the name and Mrs Thatcher (which you misunderstood) I notice you were quick to get your knickers in a twist (what a West Brit expression !)

Is mise le meas, Marienbad_ Ireland

I explained my use of the Irish Free State many pages ago, it really is not my problem if some people cannot keep up.

I'm quite sure you do not speak for the general public, something which is pretentiously suggested in your post. I would never claim to be so self-righteously important. I have already explained my opinion of what the Irish nation is. If you think someone who is so clearly made up of so many traditions is "elitist" then I think you may need to consult the dictionary.

Tirade?! Oh dear! For someone with such an obviously brilliant sense of humour you certainly cannot take a joke! Perhaps I have struck a nerve??

Look up xenophobia and then look up racism. There is a difference and I fear you are confusing the two. If you meant, as I presume you did, that my post was xenophobic then you are totally mistaken.

"As far as I am aware no such place exists and to my ears anyway is vaguely insulting ( echoes of Mrs Thatcher perhaps)." Accusing me of being a Thatcherite. No confusion here. This is beyond the pale! (Intended, stay calm!)

Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin

Oasis_Dublin

RandomName2 wrote: »

Clearly you can ascribe everything he says to sh*ts and giggles, thus when he is factually wrong (which he consistently is) it is merely you who are incorrect for ever having taken him literally when everything he says consists of highbrow irony.

I don't think I have been wrong in any instance on this forum. You should provide some examples here though (rhetorical).

Do you know what the constitution decrees the name of the 26 county state to be yet?

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I explained my use of the Irish Free State many pages ago, it really is not my problem if some people cannot keep up.

I'm quite sure you do not speak for the general public, something which is pretentiously suggested in your post. I would never claim to be so self-righteously important. I have already explained my opinion of what the Irish nation is. If you think someone who is so clearly made up of so many traditions is "elitist" then I think you may need to consult the dictionary.

Tirade?! Oh dear! For someone with such an obviously brilliant sense of humour you certainly cannot take a joke! Perhaps I have struck a nerve??

Look up xenophobia and then look up racism. There is a difference and I fear you are confusing the two. If you meant, as I presume you did, that my post was xenophobic then you are totally mistaken.

"As far as I am aware no such place exists and to my ears anyway is vaguely insulting ( echoes of Mrs Thatcher perhaps)." Accusing me of being a Thatcherite. No confusion here. This is beyond the pale! (Intended, stay calm!)

Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin

If you want to be pedantic your tirade was both racist and xenophobic. As for speaking for the general public , you already more than guilty of that yourself when you can class a substantial portion of said public who happen not to agree with your views as west brits and wishing to destroy the language.

As for accusing you of being a Thatcherite ! You still dont get the reference do you ? I am accusing you of no such thing. Perhaps it is you who require a dictionary .

mise le meas Marienbad_Ireland

Focalbhach

Nearly 3400 posts later and it seems we've finally run out of things to talk about. Good work, everybody!

:pac:

deise go deo

Leto wrote: »

Nearly 3400 posts later and it seems we've finally run out of things to talk about. Good work, everybody!

:pac:

Ah come on, we ran out of stuff to talk about around page 100, its just been 100 page loops of the same arguments ever since.
Heading for round 34 as we speak:D

Oasis_Dublin

marienbad wrote: »

If you want to be pedantic your tirade was both racist and xenophobic. As for speaking for the general public , you already more than guilty of that yourself when you can class a substantial portion of said public who happen not to agree with your views as west brits and wishing to destroy the language.

As for accusing you of being a Thatcherite ! You still dont get the reference do you ? I am accusing you of no such thing. Perhaps it is you who require a dictionary .

mise le meas Marienbad_Ireland

It absolutely was not racist. You may argue that it was xenophobic if you wish but that would also be incorrect.

The people in this thread who have been dismissive of the language (not you admittedly) have proposed getting rid of the compulsion because the language is dead. I'm not sure how anyone could claim these people want to save the language!

I have never claimed to speak for the general public as you have. I referred to "west-Britons" who on the one hand think nationalism of any sort is old fashioned in a globalised world but get their knickers in a twist when they are described as British (or when an Irish nationalist uses the term "Irish Free State", for example). The grand-nephew of someone who served in the British Army is hardly an elitist, dancing at the cross-roads Fenian now is he?

It appears that you have drawn a comparison between me using the term "Irish Free State" and Margaret Thatcher, the former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. "As far as I am aware no such place exists and to my ears anyway is vaguely insulting ( echoes of Mrs Thatcher perhaps)." Thatcher doesn't actually appear in my dictionary (!) so perhaps it might be easier to explain why you made the comparison.

deise go deo

National number of Primary School Pupils: 505,998

National Number of Second Level Students: 350,687




Primary Pupils in the Gaelthacht: 9000

Secondary Pupils in The Gaelthacht: 3030


Primary Schools in Gaelscoileanna(outside the Gaelthacht): 31,304

Secondary Pupils in Gaelcholaisteanna(Outside the Gaelthacht): 8158


Children In Irish Language Preschool: 5000



Total number attending Primary School Through Irish: 40,300

Total number attending Secondary School through Irish: 11,188




Number attending Primary School through Irish as % of national Total: 7.9%

Number attending Secondary school through Irish as % of national total: 3.2%



This is for those of you who do not realize Irish is a growing Language. 8% of kids are learning everything through Irish in Primary school, These kids will be fluent in Irish by the time they leave.

3.2% continue on to Secondary through Irish, meaning that 3.2% will attain a high degree of spoken and written fluency in Irish.

Demand for places in Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaisteanna is still well ahead of supply so this % is set to rise over the coming years.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

:rolleyes:

You may recall your earlier difficulty in accurately translating CnaG's main aim from the Irish language version? The Tuiseal Gineadach is difficult for a non native Irish speaker like yourself, but linguistic accuracy is important in any fact based discussion.

deise go deo wrote: »

Conradh na Gaeilge =/= the Language movement. It is just one(and not even the biggest) organisation among many.

This is very interesting, please back this up with facts, membership numbers and names of the other organisations together with their affiliations and sources of funding. It's actually quite difficult to find this out on the net, so I would welcome your insider information. It's certainly healthy to question the claims made by CnaG and to establish the facts surrounding the Irish language lobby. CnaG claims to be the democratic forum for the Irish speaking community. It has been the most vocal and active on the subject for over 100 years, but not much is known about its constitution.

deise go deo wrote: »

As for your waffle, give it up, if pedantry is all you have then it is just embarrassing. really, just stop before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

It must be very embarrassing for you to be faced with facts that contradict your statements and unfounded beliefs. it is no wonder that you would try to dismiss these facts as 'pedantry'.

deise go deo wrote: »

As I said:

You said no one wants to replace English as our common tongue. Now, you're trying to minimise the importance of CnaG....this is new and uncharted territory.

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

It absolutely was not racist. You may argue that it was xenophobic if you wish but that would also be incorrect.

The people in this thread who have been dismissive of the language (not you admittedly) have proposed getting rid of the compulsion because the language is dead. I'm not sure how anyone could claim these people want to save the language!

I have never claimed to speak for the general public as you have. I referred to "west-Britons" who on the one hand think nationalism of any sort is old fashioned in a globalised world but get their knickers in a twist when they are described as British (or when an Irish nationalist uses the term "Irish Free State", for example). The grand-nephew of someone who served in the British Army is hardly an elitist, dancing at the cross-roads Fenian now is he?

It appears that you have drawn a comparison between me using the term "Irish Free State" and Margaret Thatcher, the former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. "As far as I am aware no such place exists and to my ears anyway is vaguely insulting ( echoes of Mrs Thatcher perhaps)." Thatcher doesn't actually appear in my dictionary (!) so perhaps it might be easier to explain why you made the comparison.

Hello Oasis as a person similar to your self in that I have ancestors that fought (and died) in the great war, WW2 and the War of Independance I have to say I did find your reference to the Irish Free State gratuitously offensive and I am sure I am not alone in that. Not enough to lose sleep over, mind you, but just pointlessly distracting.

How you can equate people who have qualms about compulsion as West Brit/ British/Anti-nationalism/ attempting to destroy the language/ is beyond me .I am just amazed that you are so certain you are right.

Anyway I apologise if I contributed to a descent into a slanging match, I am not really interested in that.

cyclopath2001

marienbad wrote: »

I did find your reference to the Irish Free State gratuitously offensive and I am sure I am not alone in that.

+1, The only time I have ever heard that term used in modern days has been from people who wanted to deliver an insult.

marienbad wrote: »

How you can equate people who have qualms about compulsion as West Brit/ British/Anti-nationalism/ attempting to destroy the language/ is beyond me.

Usually it is fear causes people to lash out in the way you describe here.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Usually it is fear causes people to lash out in the way you describe here.

I'm living in constant fear!

Oasis_Dublin

marienbad wrote: »

How you can equate people who have qualms about compulsion as West Brit/ British/Anti-nationalism/ attempting to destroy the language/ is beyond me .I am just amazed that you are so certain you are right.

Does this mean I am no longer a Thatcherite in your eyes? I use the term "Irish Free State" and you lambast me as a Thathcherite. I'd be reasonably certain that I should be infinitely more offended!

You have once again totally misread what I wrote to fit an agenda here. Those who want the complusion taken away because they think the language is dead and a waste of tax payer's money do not want to save the language. How you could argue that they are as much in favour of the language staying alive as you or I is beyond me.

Anyway, I feel I have explained my references to the Irish Free State enough here. On the language front, there is yet to be a compelling argument for taking away the compulsion (unless anyone considers "that language is dead - take away the compulsion and put our children out of their misery" to be a valid reason.)

Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin