Is Irish a dead language?

marienbad

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Does this mean I am no longer a Thatcherite in your eyes? I use the term "Irish Free State" and you lambast me as a Thathcherite. I'd be reasonably certain that I should be infinitely more offended!

You have once again totally misread what I wrote to fit an agenda here. Those who want the complusion taken away because they think the language is dead and a waste of tax payer's money do not want to save the language. How you could argue that they are as much in favour of the language staying alive as you or I is beyond me.

Anyway, I feel I have explained my references to the Irish Free State enough here. On the language front, there is yet to be a compelling argument for taking away the compulsion (unless anyone considers "that language is dead - take away the compulsion and put our children out of their misery" to be a valid reason.)

Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin

You still dont get it, but no matter. No I hav'nt misread anything but there really is no point trying to engage with you as you will not even consider any other point of view.

I have no agenda, but to equate questioning how tax payers money is spent as wastage and wishing the death of the language is , as I said earlier, just silly. As citizens and taxpayers in a democracy we are entititled to question everything, are we not ?

There have been many compelling arguments put forward ,but as I said above ,you wont even consider them in good faith, (not necessarily agree with),you just reply with pidgeon holing and invective. Shades of ''Out ,out, out' 'perhaps ! (Now I am calling you a Thatcherite ) and No No No ( and yes I am now calling you a member of the Orange Order;) )

marienbad

Hello Deise, Your outline and projection of the Gaelscoileanna is a chronicle of undoubted success and no if ands or buts about it.But just a thought for your consideration ;every person involved in this enterprise , teachers, parents, and most of all ,pupils, are there because they want to be there. It is because it is all voluntary that it is so successful.

There is no dragging the class down and wasting teacher and fellow pupils time by a reluctantant cadre of pupils who just dont want to be there. Because it is voluntary it is ,in a sense , a labour of love. and so you end up with the very best teachers and the very best atmosphere.

Possibly the best argument for non-compulsion on this thread, I would have thought.

Oasis_Dublin

marienbad wrote: »

You still dont get it, but no matter. No I hav'nt misread anything but there really is no point trying to engage with you as you will not even consider any other point of view.

I have no agenda, but to equate questioning how tax payers money is spent as wastage and wishing the death of the language is , as I said earlier, just silly. As citizens and taxpayers in a democracy we are entititled to question everything, are we not ?

There have been many compelling arguments put forward ,but as I said above ,you wont even consider them in good faith, (not necessarily agree with),you just reply with pidgeon holing and invective. Shades of ''Out ,out, out' 'perhaps ! (Now I am calling you a Thatcherite ) and No No No ( and yes I am now calling you a member of the Orange Order;) )

Highly amuzing I have to say.

I make valid points, you reply that I'm a Thatcherite and a Paisleyite. This makes me unreasonable?!

You don't need to listen to any reason, you just look inside yourself and that tells you what's right. Reminds me of another out of touch historical figure!

Question it sure, but "let's stop spending money on that outdated, backwards language" without offering any solution as regards to saving the language is not a compelling argument.

Continue to misread and misinterpret everything I say without offering any explanation for your taring of me with the Thatcher brush though. It is very comforting I have to say!

Considering you hadn't even seen the original explanation for why I was using the term "Irish Free State", you can't really talk about what I have and have not considered; it's patently ignorant to do so.

Anyway, beautiful day in the capital of the Irish Free State, might float down to Kingstown for some sea air! (relax)

Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is very interesting, please back this up with facts, membership numbers and names of the other organisations together with their affiliations and sources of funding. It's actually quite difficult to find this out on the net, so I would welcome your insider information. It's certainly healthy to question the claims made by CnaG and to establish the facts surrounding the Irish language lobby. CnaG claims to be the democratic forum for the Irish speaking community. It has been the most vocal and active on the subject for over 100 years, but not much is known about its constitution.

Conradh na Gaeilge was for many years the largest Irish language organisation, in the 70's/80's there is a steep decline in activity and many branches closed.(as was the case across the whole voluntary sector at the time)
Currently the largest Irish language organisation is Glor na nGael.. It is core funded by Foras na Gaeilge.

Every year Glór na nGael award more than €150,000 worth of prizes to committees from around the country. This is done through the means of a public competition where partnership of local groups and the promotion of the Irish language are the main focus

Committees around the country that promote the Language can enter the competitions they run and the best get a prize to help them with their work.

You said no one wants to replace English as our common tongue. Now, you're trying to minimise the importance of CnaG....this is new and uncharted territory.

I said that the Aim is a Bilingual Ireland. And showed official documents that prove that.

I am not trying to minimise the improtance of CnaG, I am simply pointing out the reality that the Irish Language movement and CnaG are not the same thing, There is much more to the language movement than CnaG alone.

The truth is that there is quite a bit of co-operation between the various groups, The Irish Officer with the USI is also working with CnaG, Glor na nGael and Comhludar. The CnaG development officer also works with Raidió Rí Rá.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Conradh na Gaeilge was for many years the largest Irish language organisation, in the 70's/80's there is a steep decline in activity and many branches closed.(as was the case across the whole voluntary sector at the time)
Currently the largest Irish language organisation is Glor na nGael.. It is core funded by Foras na Gaeilge.

GnaG is not an activist or lobby group. While its activities are obviously wholesome, there is little information about their membership or source of finance on their website.

Maybe this one is the voice of Irish?

Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge
Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge is the central steering council for the Irish language community.*Its mission is to 'strengthen and consolidate goodwill and support for the Irish language and its usage as a living language so that it may be used freely and widely in all aspects of Irish life'.

or this one?

Foras na Gaeilge, the body responsible for the promotion of the Irish language throughout the whole island of Ireland, was founded on the second day of December 1999

or this one?

Conradh na Gaeilge / The Gaelic LeagueConradh na Gaeilge is the democratic forum for the Irish-speaking community and promotes the language throughout the whole of Ireland and around the world. Is main aim is to reinstate the Irish language as the common*tongue of Ireland.

I think these are just the top tier quangos?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

GnaG is not an activist or lobby group. While its activities are obviously wholesome, there is little information about their membership or source of finance on their website.

Conradh na Gaeilge or Cónradh na Gaeilge(Coffin of Irish) as some would refer to it (its branch members being on average aged between 70 and 90, Though that said I am now a branch member and I am not 80:D ) is a voluntary organisation for promoting Irish. (their head Office in Dublin is better, more active, than the various branches, but the branches run the show unfortunately)

Foras na Gaeilge is a Cross Border Body set up under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement to promote Irish North and South. It is the body that is basically responciple for Irish outside the Gaelthacht (Údarás na Gaeltachta is responsible for Irish in the Gaelthacht)

Glor na nGeal is funded by Foras na Gaeilge, Committees from around the Country (University Cumann Gaelach's for example) Submit what they have done to promote Irish over the year, the best in their category get prize money to help them with their work over the next year, (you can also just apply directly to Foras na Gaeilge for funding)

I havent had much dealings with Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, so I cant tell you much about them. Though it seams to be the umbrella organisation that coordinates the activities of the various non-state Irish Language groups like CnaG and Comhludar.

There are many many more Organisations dotted all over the place that promote Irish, Its safe to say that there is no 'The voice of the Irish language movement'

marienbad

Hi Deise , how about an answer to my last post:)

deise go deo

marienbad wrote: »

Hello Deise, Your outline and projection of the Gaelscoileanna is a chronicle of undoubted success and no if ands or buts about it.But just a thought for your consideration ;every person involved in this enterprise , teachers, parents, and most of all ,pupils, are there because they want to be there. It is because it is all voluntary that it is so successful.

There is no dragging the class down and wasting teacher and fellow pupils time by a reluctantant cadre of pupils who just dont want to be there. Because it is voluntary it is ,in a sense , a labour of love. and so you end up with the very best teachers and the very best atmosphere.

Possibly the best argument for non-compulsion on this thread, I would have thought.

Sorry, Dident see this.


Teachers are there mostly because its a job, Having the necessary amount of Irish is an opportunity in this case, (they have the job beacue they have Irish) and also means that they will most likely be pro-Irish in general, but I wouldn't say its a labor of love so to speak, Its a job(that pays) first and foremost.

For many parents it is certainly for love of the language, but for many more it is for the benefits that Bilingualism and second language immersion bring to a child's mental development. Both are great reasons.

For kids, I doubt any four year old think's in abstract enough terms to love a language. Going to a gaelscoil and learning through Irish is just the norm for them in the same way as learning through English is for everyone else.

The gaelscoil movement is a great example of the potential for Irish, and is one of the most important aspects of promoting Irish in the population. But it has little bearing on Irish in English medium schools as far as choice is concerned as students going to Gaelscoil's don't choose to go and at the age of four don't really perceive the difference.

marienbad

deise go deo wrote: »

Sorry, Dident see this.


Teachers are there mostly because its a job, Having the necessary amount of Irish is an opportunity in this case, (they have the job beacue they have Irish) and also means that they will most likely be pro-Irish in general, but I wouldn't say its a labor of love so to speak, Its a job(that pays) first and foremost.

For many parents it is certainly for love of the language, but for many more it is for the benefits that Bilingualism and second language immersion bring to a child's mental development. Both are great reasons.

For kids, I doubt any four year old think's in abstract enough terms to love a language. Going to a gaelscoil and learning through Irish is just the norm for them in the same way as learning through English is for everyone else.

The gaelscoil movement is a great example of the potential for Irish, and is one of the most important aspects of promoting Irish in the population. But it has little bearing on Irish in English medium schools as far as choice is concerned as students going to Gaelscoil's don't choose to go and at the age of four don't really perceive the difference.

Hello Deise , I accept that the kids of 4 dont choose to go, but these schools go all the way through to the Leaving, don't they ?

I would assume that in secondary when the exam at all costs mode kicks in it makes a huge difference being with like minded people and without the dead weight of reluctant clasmates.

I would assume that the standard of teacher is much higher as it is one thing to teach a language but something completely different to teach everything through that language. No place to hide there.

If it is not likeminded people banding together then why are they so successful ??

deise go deo

marienbad wrote: »

Hello Deise , I accept that the kids of 4 dont choose to go, but these schools go all the way through to the Leaving, don't they ?

There are far less Secondary schools than primary schools as gaeilge. So it is possible to go the full way through from primary to LC, But you have to be lucky to make it.

I would assume that in secondary when the exam at all costs mode kicks in it makes a huge difference being with like minded people and without the dead weight of reluctant clasmates.

In my experience, there will be messer's in any class, Optional or compulsory.

I would assume that the standard of teacher is much higher as it is one thing to teach a language but something completely different to teach everything through that language. No place to hide there.

In a gaelscoil Enviroment, language takes a second place.
In an ordinary school, that the history teacher happens to be fluent in English, and is teaching History through English is is incidental, not vital. Same is true of Irish in a gaelscoil.

If it is not likeminded people banding together then why are they so successful ??

The benefits of second language learning is well documented. It is that they are learning through a second language that the success is attributed to.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Though that said I am now a branch member

so, you have recently joined an organisation whose main aim is the Reinstatement of Irish as the Common Tongue of Ireland. Now we know where you stand.

deise go deo wrote: »

Foras na Gaeilge is a Cross Border Body set up under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement to promote Irish North and South. ......Glor na nGeal is funded by Foras na Gaeilge.....I havent had much dealings with Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, so I cant tell you much about them. Though it seams to be the umbrella organisation that coordinates the activities of the various non-state Irish Language groups like CnaG and Comhludar.....There are many many more Organisations dotted all over the place that promote Irish

It seems that the Irish language movement has more front companies than the CIA!

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

so, you have recently joined an organisation whose main aim is the Reinstatement of Irish as the Common Tongue of Ireland. Now we know where you stand.

I dident join so to speak, The Cumann Gaelach in UL set up our own branch of CnaG with the Committee of the Cumann being the committee of the Branch too.(You need to be a branch to get free stuff from CnaG.) So I am registered as a committee member of the UL branch of CnaG.


My stance, one which I have outlined several times, is that Bilingualism is the desired outcome.

You can claim that I am lying but you have nothing to back up such a claim.

It seems that the Irish language movement has more front companies than the CIA!

LOL, :rolleyes:

SupaNova

The idea that parents cannot choose whether their child gets to learn irish or not is absolutely immoral. In the current system kids spend up to 14 years learning a language that will be no use to them. Teenagers in every school are smart if enough to know its of no use. Trying to force people to learn something they don't want to learn will not work.

I'm sure i'll get flamed by irish teachers and even teachers in general. But if you actually care about educating people, you cant defend this. Maybe I'm wrong and i wont get flamed, as we have teachers who care about teaching people things that will benefit them. Imagine how much better off our children would be if they could use those 14 years to learn something they will possibly use after they leave school.

There is no moral justification.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I dident join so to speak, The Cumann Gaelach in UL set up our own branch of CnaG with the Committee of the Cumann being the committee of the Branch too.(You need to be a branch to get free stuff from CnaG.) So I am registered as a committee member of the UL branch of CnaG.

What a weird and wonderful web the movement weaves.

I wonder how many people are unwitting members of CnaG and are claimed as supporters?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

What a weird and wonderful web the movement weaves.

I wonder how many people are unwitting members of CnaG and are claimed as supporters?

My Guess would be Zero, It costs €20 to join.

The reason I said I dident join exactly is that I dident join CnaG, I set up a branch for the Cumann in UL and am listed as a committee member (This costs €50)

How you could possibly be an unwitting member of CnaG escapes me.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

The reason I said I dident join exactly is that I dident join CnaG, I set up a branch for the Cumann in UL and am listed as a committee member (This costs €50)

How you could possibly be an unwitting member of CnaG escapes me.

You appeared to be trying to distance yourself from CnaG, and i respected your judgement.

Ok, then you now admit knowingly being a member of an organisation whose Main Aim is the Reinstatement of Irish as The Common Language of Ireland and at the same time, in this thread, denying that anyone wants to replace, our existing common language, English?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You appeared to be trying to distance yourself from CnaG, and i respected your judgement.

I am not trying to distance myself from CnaG, why would I? They are a great group of people, I have several friends in the organisation.
You seam to view them as the gestapo or something, do you even know anyone in the organisation?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

You seam to view them as the gestapo

From their website and press statements, they do seem rather zealous about forcing people to speak Irish. Then, there is the rather important matter of their Main Aim.

I am sure the ordinary members like yourself just joined for the music, chat and free stuff.

Bomany

Yes it is - Thanks to O'Cuiv and the rest of the Gaelgeoir pharisees.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I am sure the ordinary members like yourself just joined for the music, chat and free stuff.

Na, It was just the free stuff to be honest.

bath handle

With the new government the life support will be cut off. Optional Irish in the leaving cert will decimated the summer schools. That will lead to a drop in the native population in the gaeltacht areas.The remainder will soon be swamped.

AlexderFranke

Is fíor gurb é cur ar ais na Gaeilge mar phríomh-theanga na hÉireann fós an aidm atá ag CnaG. Ach is iad aidhmeanna arda agus céard is féidir a bhaint amach as an dtuil saor de dhaoine dá scéal éagsúil. As mo thaithi féin le lucht ChnaG, déarfainn nach mion leo an aidhm mar sin a bhaint amach trí mhódhanna olca. Creidim gur mian leo luach na Gaeilge a chur ina luighe ar na hÉireannaí agus níl sé mar aidhm acu é a dhéanamh le treise lámh.

Tá a fhios agam go smaoineann roinnt daoine gur módh olc í an Ghaeilge mar ábhar éigeantach ar scoil. Ach dar liomsa, is fiú an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh do ghach pháiste go dtí go sroicheann siad an aois nuair a bhíonn an tuairim socruithe féin acu ó thaobh na Gaeilge. Mar a dúirt mé níos luaithe, bíonn roinnt déagóirí ag clamhsán gur baineadh teanga dhúchasach na tíre féin díobh mura múintear í do ghach pháiste. Chuala mé an clamhsán sin ó roinnt Éireannaí a fuair droch-mhúineadh na Gaeilge ar scoil. Do léigh mé abairt fheiliúnach ó Occitáineach ó dheisceart na Fraince mar atá: Perqué m´an pas dich lo nom dau pais? As Gaeilge: Cén fath ní deireadh dom ainm na dúiche?

Más fearr leat an Béarla agus mura maith leat an Ghaeilge, ní thugtar ort an Ghaeilge a labhairt in Éireann.

It is right that it is still the aim of CnaG to reinstate Irish as main language of Ireland. But high aims and what can be achieved out of the free will of the people are two different things. But from own experiences with people of CnaG, I would say that they do not want to achieve this aim by evil means. I believe that they want to convince the Irish people of the worth of the Irish language and that they do not aim to do this by force.

I know that a bit some of people think that Irish as mandatory subject at school is an evil mean. But in my point of view, it is worth teaching Irish to every student until they will reach an age when they will have their own settled opinion on the Irish language. As I have said yet, a bit some of teenagers will complain that they were deprived from the own country´s original language if it is not taught to every student. I have heard this complaint from some Irish persons who have received bad teaching of Irish at school. I have read a suitable sentence from an Occitan person from the south of France which is: Perqué m´an pas dich lo nom dau pais? In English: Why did they not tell me the name of the home country?

If you prefere English and you do not like Irish, you will not be forced to speak Irish in Ireland.

Iwasfrozen

AlexderFranke wrote: »

It is right that it is still the aim of CnaG to reinstate Irish as main language of Ireland. But high aims and what can be achieved out of the free will of the people are two different things. But from own experiences with people of CnaG, I would say that they do not want to achieve this aim by evil means. I believe that they want to convince the Irish people of the worth of the Irish language and that they do not aim to do this by force.

I know that a bit some of people think that Irish as mandatory subject at school is an evil mean. But in my point of view, it is worth teaching Irish to every student until they will reach an age when they will have their own settled opinion on the Irish language. As I have said yet, a bit some of teenagers will complain that they were deprived from the own country´s original language if it is not taught to every student. I have heard this complaint from some Irish persons who have received bad teaching of Irish at school. I have read a suitable sentence from an Occitan person from the south of France which is: Perqué m´an pas dich lo nom dau pais? In English: Why did they not tell me the name of the home country?

If you prefere English and you do not like Irish, you will not be forced to speak Irish in Ireland.

I don't see anything wrong wih CnaG wanting to make irish the first language of the country but the way they are going about it is just worng. Instead of providing free evening classes for adults they want to force the Irish language on everychild in the country without the decency of even asking their parents permission. But that's alright because as far as the machiavellians in the Irish language lobby are concerned the end justifies the means. Irish language education was always about the language first and children second.

Don't get me wrong have Irish mandatory up to junior cert but by transition year a student is well capable of making their mind up on the subject.

AlexderFranke

to Iwasfrozen:
I agree with you in this point. After Junior Certificate, the students will certainly have their own point of view about Irish. That what counts is not if Irish is taken as subject in LC, but if students have a solid grasp in Irish.

Má dhéanfar athrú ar mhúineadh na Gaeilge sa gcaoi go mbeidh sé éifeachtach agus go bhfreastalaíonn sé ar shuimeanna na bpáistí agus ndéagóirí, is dóigh go bhfeicfidh neart acu luach na Gaeilge. Sin fíor cheana féin inniu i gcásanna a múintear í go héifeachtach agus níos suimiúla.
Ach ní cheapaim gur cheart an rogha a ligean ag na tuismitheoirí nuair atá na páistí níos óige. Níor cheart go mbraitheann sé ag tuil na dtuismitheoirí an bhfuil an seans ag páistí an teanga dhúchasach na tíre a aithint ón aois óg. Beidh roinnt acu ag clamhsán gur bhain a dtuismitheoirí iad den teanga. An rogha atá ag na tuismitheoirí agus ba cheart a bheith acu, is é an rogha idir an nGaelscoil agus an scoil choitianta.
Ba bhreá liom dá mbeadh ár dteanga réigiúnda múinte dom ó shin ar scoil ón mbunscoil! Tá mothuchán orm féin go mbaineadh dím ár dteanga réigiúnda san óige.

If a change will be made on the teaching of Irish so that it will be effective and will meet with the interests of children and teenagers, some of them will probably see the worth of Irish. This is already true today in cases where it is taught effectively and more interesting.

But I do not think that the choice should be let to the parents when the children are younger. It ought not to depend on the will of the parents if parents will have the chance to know the original language of the country from a young age. Some of them will complain that their parents have deprived them from the language. The choice that parents have and ought to have is the choice between the Gaelscoil and the ordinary school.
I would have loved if our regional language once would have been taught to me at school from primary school. I myself have the feeling that I have been deprived from our regional language in youth.

SC024

Is there any jobs in out there right now which require irish that are not in any way state supported?

AlexderFranke

Ní amháin ullmhú le post a fháil atá sa chóras oideachais. Is dóigh nach gá an Ghaeilge do phost ar bith ach amháin do mhúinteoirí Gaeilge agus dóibh siúd sa réimse a mbaineann leis an nGaeilge. Ach is dóigh liom go bhfuil cumas ar an nGaeilge úsáideach i bpostanna a phléann go minic le Gaelgeoirí dúchais.

It is not only preparing to get a job that the education system is for. Irish is probably not needed for any job except for Irish teachers or for those in the sector that deals with the Irish language. But I think that Irish language skills are useful in jobs that are often dealing with native Irish speakers.

cyclopath2001

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Is fíor gurb é cur ar ais na Gaeilge mar phríomh-theanga na hÉireann .....It is right that it is still the aim of CnaG to reinstate Irish as main language of Ireland.

It may be true that this is the Main Aim of the CnaG group, but it is not right.

Of all of the priorities ee could have as a nation, changing our common language could not possibly be among the most important.

cyclopath2001

AlexderFranke wrote: »

But I think that Irish language skills are useful in jobs that are often dealing with native Irish speakers.

It is not essential as the native Irish speakers are quite fluent and proficient in our common language, which is English.

Perhaps in other countries there is a problem with native minoriity language speakers not speaking the main language, but not here.

deise go deo

SC024 wrote: »

Is there any jobs in out there right now which require irish that are not in any way state supported?

Yes.

deise go deo

From the program for Government.

We will undertake a thorough reform of the Irish curriculum and the way in which Irish is taught at primary and second levels of education. We will reform the curriculum so more emphasis is put on oral and aural skills. We will allocate 50% of marks to the oral Irish exam at Leaving Certificate level.

We will aim to double the proportion of Irish students sitting the Higher Level Leaving Certificate
exam by 2018.

We will take steps to improve the quality and effectiveness of the teaching of Irish at second level. When these steps have been implemented, we will consider the question of whether Irish should be optional at Leaving Certificate.

So there we have it, Irish will not be made optional anytime soon. There will be a thorough reform first, and then making Irish optional will be 'Considered'.