Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

it's understandable that you'd want to downplay the absurdities of Irish language policy and the actions of its supporters.

Why do we need a battalion of (allegedly) Irish speaking soldiers in Galway?

To hunt down decenters like you of course:P

The Reality is that the Battalion exists to cater for Irish speaking Soldiers from the various Gaeltachts. The state has the promotion of the Language as an aim, with that in mind, it makes sense to make a provision like this when it can.

Also, a little known fact, for years the army used Irish as code for radio comms, to the extent that Isreal sent agents to Connemara to Learn Irish.

RandomName2

Oh btw deise I don't think you ever got around to answering a question I posed ages ago -

How, in your opinion, has bi-linguism worked in Belgium?

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

Oh btw deise I don't think you ever got around to answering a question I posed ages ago -

How, in your opinion, has bi-linguism worked in Belgium?

I havent really looked into the situation in Belgium much, though I am aware of the tentions that exist there.
These tentions are not caused by Bilingualism, but rather from two culturally distinct groups trying to co-exist in the one state without much other than the name 'Belgium' to unite them.

I would suggest that Belgium and Ireland are not comparable in this regard, Such cultural tention would be much closer to the situation in the North(if less extream in Belgiums case)

Bilingualism is not the cause of problems in Belgium, Even if the existence of two languages there could be viewed as a contributory factor to the tention(Again much like the North) This is not due to bilingualism but due to deeper cultural divides.

Elsewhere bilingualism is a very positive thing, and given the close affinity of Irish people for the Irish Language(At least in all available evidence) then the Growth of Bilingualism here is very unlickly to cause tentions like those existing in Belgium.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

To hunt down decenters like you of course:P

So, the lobby does not approve of decent people?

deise go deo wrote: »

The state has the promotion of the Language as an aim, with that in mind, it makes sense to make a provision like this when it can.

So, any instance of government waste can be excused in the name of Irish language promotion?

deise go deo wrote: »

TheAlso, a little known fact, for years the army used Irish as code for radio comms, to the extent that Isreal sent agents to Connemara to Learn Irish.

So, the battalion is kept in Galway in case the Israelis invade? The story about Irish and the mission in Lebanon has been spun up to myth status.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

the Growth of Bilingualism here is very unlickly to cause tentions like those existing in Belgium.

If bilingualism were licky, more people might be interested in having a go, it sounds quite indecent. As for tentions, I think we have enough empty houses, so we wont need tents or their more more pretentious tention varients.

But seriously, would it not be better to speak one language properly before trying to learn another? Or are your constant spelling mistakes a product of bilingualusm?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So, any instance of government waste can be excused in the name of Irish language promotion?

How exactly is this an instance of Govenment waste? There is no reason to move these troops out of Galway, the Barracks there has had quite a bit of money spent on it in recent years, to move troops out of it now would be wastful. The army is one of the most efficient services in the state as far as money is concerned. That the Battalion speaks Irish dosent mean it is any more expencive than the rest.:rolleyes:

So, the battalion is kept in Galway in case the Israelis invade? The story about Irish and the mission in Lebanon has been spun up to myth status.

What? Are you feeling ok? That has to be one of the most random conclusions you have come to in this whole thread.(and for you thats saying something.)

Myth status? You can go and get the Logs of the Radio transmisions in Irish under freedom of Info if you want.

There is a good book called the Siege of Jadotville(About the Irish mission to the Congo) where several of these messages as Gaeilge are recorded.

The armys use of Irish is recorded Fact, not Myth:rolleyes:

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

How exactly is this an instance of Govenment waste? There is no reason to move these troops out of Galway, the Barracks there has had quite a bit of money spent on it in recent years, to move troops out of it now would be wastful. The army is one of the most efficient services in the state as far as money is concerned. That the Battalion speaks Irish dosent mean it is any more expencive than the rest.:rolleyes:

There seems to be no reason for them to be there, other than they are paid to speak Irish and help keep the numbers up? You've already robustly disregarded the possibility of Galway being invaded by Irish-speaking Israelis.

deise go deo wrote: »

Myth status? You can go and get the Logs of the Radio transmisions in Irish under freedom of Info if you want.

I am sure they did use Irish in the peace keeping missions, but the importance of this fact has been inflated. Unless speaking Irish at people is more effective than traditional military strategies? A big part of the job was to win the confidence of the local population , who, did not speak Irish. Blingualism would have been important, but not the kind you have in mind.

deise go deo wrote: »

There is a good book called the Siege of Jadotville(About the Irish mission to the Congo) where several of these messages as Gaeilge are recorded.

The Congo is nowhere near Israel or Lebanon. and the army surrendered, albeit, after inflicting heavy casualiities on its besiegers. But i suspect that was was down to the accuracy of the Irish mortar crews rather than their ability to speak Irish.

MysticalRain

This isn't the 1960's anymore. Military communications are encrypted nowadays which negates the usefulness of speaking Irish.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

Myth status? You can go and get the Logs of the Radio transmisions in Irish under freedom of Info if you want.

There is a good book called the Siege of Jadotville(About the Irish mission to the Congo) where several of these messages as Gaeilge are recorded.

The armys use of Irish is recorded Fact, not Myth:rolleyes:

MysticalRain wrote: »

This isn't the 1960's anymore. Military communications are encrypted nowadays which negates the usefulness of speaking Irish.

The 1960s isn't that long ago if you are living in the nineteenth century and seeking the restoration of Irish as the main spoken language of the country.:):rolleyes:

Kosseegan

deise go deo wrote: »

A friend of yours said? If thats what they said then I would take it with a pinch of salt as there is no possibility that they dident hear Irish. Why were they there anyway? Are they in the RDF? If so they should definatly have heard Irish as it gets shouted at them a lot. Clé is Left Deas is right etc.

All drill orders given in the Army are through Irish.(Not just in An Céad Cath)

Maybe they were wearing hearing protection the whole time?

A few nonsense syllables which are not understood by the speaker or listener do not count as Irish. Irish commands were introduced in the 1920s by a temporary Minister for Defence. How many reservists or regular troops could write out the orders they have been listening to for years accurately or at all?
My friend was there with a reserve unit in contact with the local troops. There was no Irish spoken in the messes or canteens and no Irish conversation was heard anywhere else. Virtually everything was done through English. Mass was said in English in the garrison church. The Bishop attended a function in the barracks afterwards. The entire proceedings including speeches were conducted in English.

dubhthach

I wouldn't be surprised if an céad cath is as irish speaking as Claregalway. In otherwords it was at one stage probably back in the 1920's. However these days it's just says so on paper. Though I will say Claregalway probably has a higher then national average level of Irish speaking (around 10%) however it's inclusion in the Gaeltacht is a left over of a past demographic situation.

Kosseegan

From what I have been told, there are a few native speaker recruits from Connemara, the majority of the officers are not native speakers and not from Galway but have a reasonable grasp of Irish from their education. There is another barracks 50 miles down the motorway in Athlone, which is much more central.

dubhthach

Kosseegan wrote: »

From what I have been told, there are a few native speaker recruits from Connemara, the majority of the officers are not native speakers and not from Galway but have a reasonable grasp of Irish from their education. There is another barracks 50 miles down the motorway in Athlone, which is much more central.

How many troops can Custume barracks accommodate? I see from a quick Google that there is 430 men based there at the moment (300 from 6th battalion and 130 from 4th Calvary), the city tribune says there's 234 troops based in Renmore.

caseyann

Interesting stuff here.

Almost half of Irish people 'speak fluent Irish', claims survey
Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 01:18 PM


Almost half of respondents to a recent survey have claimed that they can speak Irish fluently.

Some 47% of the 1,000 people surveyed, from each of the four provinces, by research company iReach for lastminute.com, said they were able to speak the Irish language.

Three in four people (78%) claimed to have spoken Irish it at some point in the past year.

The group with the greatest command of the language were 18-25 year-olds, with more than half (56%) maintaining that they could speak it fluently.

Conducted to coincide with Seachtain na Gaeilge and St. Patrick’s Day, the survey also found that under a fifth (17%) cannot remember when they last spoke Irish.

Just 5% claimed that they last spoke Irish for their Leaving Certificate.


I always throw in a bit of Irish even to some of the Non Irish,i do a Dia dhuit conas atá tú,they love it when i do

Sorry forgot the link.
http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/almost-half-of-irish-people-speak-fluent-irish-claims-survey-497499.html

Judgement Day

caseyann - you're only fooling yourself if you believe that survey. My seven year old can speak a few words of Irish and he is the most fluent speaker that I've come across in decades. Instead of asking people if they could speak Irish the researchers should have engaged them in conversation to assess their fluency but then the survey wouldn't have achieved the desired results.

caseyann

Judgement Day wrote: »

caseyann - your only fooling yourself if you believe that survey. My seven year old can speak a few words of Irish and he is the most fluent speaker that I've come across in decades.

Try speaking Irish to a few people see what happens.
I am not kidding myself,everyday someone speaks Irish to me and i live in Dublin.Greetings on the street and conversations if i have time to stop and talk.People in shops.Just depends on how confident you are speaking Irish and if you are embarrassed or not to try.
Go try it and see what happens then come back and say that i am kidding myself.
I even had a man and the workers speak Irish to me in a petrol station few weeks back.;)

theredletter

Judgement Day wrote: »

caseyann - your only fooling yourself if you believe that survey. My seven year old can speak a few words of Irish and he is the most fluent speaker that I've come across in decades. Instead of asking people if they could speak Irish the researchers should have engaged them in conversation to assess their fluency but then the survey wouldn't have achieved the desired results.

Ridiculous. Apparently trusting statistical data over the example of a seven year old is 'fooling yourself'? Ok... Also, the language testing you are suggesting is a bit more difficult and would require funding, thank god we're not in recession!

The fact of the matter is is that Irish speakers are on the rise, like it or not. You're (your = possession, you're = you are) only fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.

Focalbhach

Oh, for heaven's sake. It's a marketing gimmick for lastminute.com. No matter what your stance on Irish is, this is not serious research.

Iwasfrozen

theredletter wrote: »

Ridiculous. Apparently trusting statistical data over the example of a seven year old is 'fooling yourself'? Ok... Also, the language testing you are suggesting is a bit more difficult and would require funding, thank god we're not in recession!

The fact of the matter is is that Irish speakers are on the rise, like it or not. You're (your = possession, you're = you are) only fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.

Don't put your faith in polls. The results of polls can be infulenced by the people conducting the research. A better way to judge a poll is to ask yourself who conducted the poll and are they independent or do they have a vested interest in the outcome of the poll. Or you know failing that you could just use common sense and my common sense tells me 47% of people do not speak Irish fluently.

Of course the number of Irish speakers is on the rise, just like it has been since the foundation of the irish league, and since independence, and since the days of the Fáinne badge, and since the lauch of TG4, and since the oral exam became more important. Yep, any day now we'll all be speaking Irish and untill that day all we have to do is keep pouring the millions in.

P.S I hope the grammar in this post was up to your standards.

theredletter

Leto wrote: »

Oh, for heaven's sake. It's a marketing gimmick for lastminute.com. No matter what your stance on Irish is, this is not serious research.

I'm not suggesting that the survey in question is gospel... Lastminute.com may have used the survey as a gimmick, but other research has concluded similar trends. I was merely saying that the poster shouldn't have been criticised for trusting a survey over the other poster's seven year old son's (in)ability to speak Irish.

No matter what your stance is on Irish, there has been other linguistic research done on the matter that can be accessed via JSTOR and your local library. The census is a fantastic source of information for language planning, but there are many difficulties with it (even outside of language planning).

Whether or not the language is dying is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is is that the complete disregard of people to be respectful of native cultures continues to be degraded. Ireland is quickly becoming an homogenised country, and the differences between us and the Americans/ British are lessening each day. But this is not just about Ireland, it is about minority language rights which is an international issue. Minority cultures and languages should not be conserved just to force it on unwilling students, but to show the uniqueness of humanity.

theredletter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't put your faith in polls. The results of polls can be infulenced by the poeple conducting the research. A better way to judge a poll is to ask yourself who conducted the poll and are they independent or do they have a vested interest in the outcome of the poll. Or you know failing that you could just use common sense and my common sense tells me 47% of people do not speak Irish fluently.

Of course the number of Irish speakers is on the rise, just like it has been since the foundation of the irish league, and since independence, and since the days of the Fáinne badge, and since the lauch of TG4, and since the oral exam became more important. Yep, any day now we'll all be speaking Irish and untill that day all we have to do is keep pouring the millions in.

P.S I hope the grammar in this post was up to your standards.

First of all, I've already discussed the difficulties with polls such as this, and I agree with you that those who speak Irish well is below 47%. I'd put it closer to 20% or less.

Secondly, although you may be trying to be sarcastic you don't know what you're talking about. The Irish language was revolutionised in the early 20th century (through standardization, for example). The Fáinne badge wasn't ever a major role in language planning but more of a nationalist thing, in my opinion. I would happily agree with you that how the Irish language was dealt with after the foundation of the state was limiting. It was far too comfortable in the romanticism that was prevailing throughout Western Europe at the time. This led to bad decision-making and to the ruralization of Irish identity, culture and language.

Thirdly, I can understand why many people find Irish difficulty when they have difficulty with language acquisition, generally. Irish English-speakers have fantastic spoken language skills, but we are known for having bad English, grammatically (in written form, particularly).

I'd prefer to see Ireland becoming more adaptable and open to learning other languages rather than expecting the world to speak the current lingua franca that may change in the next 40 years. If Mandarin was to become the international language for business, politics and trade, Irish people would stand up in a heart beat to defend the right for them to use the English language.

It's all fine and dandy when you're in the majority, in fairness.

Focalbhach

theredletter wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that the survey in question is gospel... Lastminute.com may have used the survey as a gimmick, but other research has concluded similar trends. I was merely saying that the poster shouldn't have been criticised for trusting a survey over the other poster's seven year old son's (in)ability to speak Irish.

No matter what your stance is on Irish, there has been other linguistic research done on the matter that can be accessed via JSTOR and your local library.

Well, yes, exactly. There is genuine research out there, and treating it as "another" source of information (as the bolded sections above suggest) alongside this excuse for a news story devalues it. There is no useful information, positive or negative, to be gleaned from this 'survey'.

theredletter

Leto wrote: »

Well, yes, exactly. There is genuine research out there, and treating it as "another" source of information (as the bolded sections above suggest) alongside this excuse for a news story devalues it. There is no useful information, positive or negative, to be gleaned from this 'survey'.

Fair enough, and you make an excellent point. However, using personal experience in terms of this issue doesn't help either. For example; "I've never heard any Irish being used on the streets" is perfectly acceptable, but it is limiting. Irish can be heard quite commonly in Cork and Galway, and indeed there are a lot of Irish-speakers in Co. Dublin (I've heard people on mobiles chatter away in Irish, I've also heard people in cinemas, publs etc. Small chance others think they are speaking another European language which happens quite commonly). Same goes for "I couldn't speak a word of it after I did the leaving cert in 1992 - it shouldn't be a mandatory subject". Very good, and I understand why that person would say that, but it is an out-of-date and limiting idea rather than concrete linguistic evidence that goes against what many on the 'nay' side are arguing.

Iwasfrozen

theredletter wrote: »

First of all, I've already discussed the difficulties with polls such as this, and I agree with you that those who speak Irish well is below 47%. I'd put it closer to 20% or less.

Secondly, although you may be trying to be sarcastic you don't know what you're talking about. The Irish language was revolutionised in the early 20th century (through standardization, for example). The Fáinne badge wasn't ever a major role in language planning but more of a nationalist thing, in my opinion. I would happily agree with you that how the Irish language was dealt with after the foundation of the state was limiting. It was far too comfortable in the romanticism that was prevailing throughout Western Europe at the time. This led to bad decision-making and to the ruralization of Irish identity, culture and language.

Thirdly, I can understand why many people find Irish difficulty when they have difficulty with language acquisition, generally. Irish English-speakers have fantastic spoken language skills, but we are known for having bad English, grammatically (in written form, particularly).

I'd prefer to see Ireland becoming more adaptable and open to learning other languages rather than expecting the world to speak the current lingua franca that may change in the next 40 years. If Mandarin was to become the international language for business, politics and trade, Irish people would stand up in a heart beat to defend the right for them to use the English language.

It's all fine and dandy when you're in the majority, in fairness.

I would agree with you that 47% is way off the mark but so is 20%. I would conservatively put the number of Irish speakers at 170,000 including teachers. Which is 0.027% of the population of the island of Ireland.

Yes I was being sarcastic the point still remains, efforts were used in the past to try to increase the number of Irish speakers. And yes while the methods used where not the best there's very little reason to believe current methods are much better. You can't teach someone a language they don't want to learn, no matter how good your teaching skills are.

And yeah, I'd like to see Irish people making an effort to learn foreign languages. Even mumbling a few words in a foreign country can be very appreciated by the locals.

dubhthach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I would agree with you that 47% is way off the mark but so is 20%. I would conservatively put the number of Irish speakers at 170,000 including teachers. Which is 0.027% of the population of the island of Ireland.

Yes I was being sarcastic the point still remains, efforts were used in the past to try to increase the number of Irish speakers. And yes while the methods used where not the best there's very little reason to believe current methods are much better. You can't teach someone a language they don't want to learn, no matter how good your teaching skills are.

And yeah, I'd like to see Irish people making an effort to learn foreign languages. Even mumbling a few words in a foreign country can be very appreciated by the locals.

Your calculation is out by a factor of 100. 170,000 is 2.8% of 6 million.

However including Northern Ireland is abit flawed mainly as Irish is not compulsory subject. I would think most of the 1million members of the Unionist community have next to no exposure to Irish language.

If there is about 3.9 million Irish citizens in the republic (400k non-nationals), then your conservative figure is about 4.3%

In general though if it was up to students most subjects would be dropped, I know that after 5 years of French I can hardly put a sentence together. I would think most of my issue was due to the poor standard of teaching. I just switched off. Now I think if I was to go and learn french in my own time I'd probably be fluent in a considerably quicker time then it would take in the Irish education system.

Judgement Day

theredletter wrote: »

Ridiculous. Apparently trusting statistical data over the example of a seven year old is 'fooling yourself'? Ok... Also, the language testing you are suggesting is a bit more difficult and would require funding, thank god we're not in recession!

The fact of the matter is is that Irish speakers are on the rise, like it or not. You're (your = possession, you're = you are) only fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.

Thanks for the English lesson - I'm well aware of the difference but mistakes can be made when you're concentrating on the message. You're going to be busy on Boards if a small error like mine engages you as many posts are no better than text speak. :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

theredletter wrote: »

Fair enough, and you make an excellent point. However, using personal experience in terms of this issue doesn't help either. For example; "I've never heard any Irish being used on the streets" is perfectly acceptable, but it is limiting. Irish can be heard quite commonly in Cork and Galway, and indeed there are a lot of Irish-speakers in Co. Dublin (I've heard people on mobiles chatter away in Irish, I've also heard people in cinemas, publs etc. Small chance others think they are speaking another European language which happens quite commonly). Same goes for "I couldn't speak a word of it after I did the leaving cert in 1992 - it shouldn't be a mandatory subject". Very good, and I understand why that person would say that, but it is an out-of-date and limiting idea rather than concrete linguistic evidence that goes against what many on the 'nay' side are arguing.

Pubs is the plural of pub.

cyclopath2001

theredletter wrote: »

the complete disregard of people to be respectful of native cultures continues to be degraded.

Surely it is a good thing that the disregard of native cultures is degraded?

The last thing we need would be cultural commisars telling people (be they Irish or English-speakng Irish people) what language they must speak in order to that their culture would be respected?

theredletter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I would agree with you that 47% is way off the mark but so is 20%. I would conservatively put the number of Irish speakers at 170,000 including teachers. Which is 0.027% of the population of the island of Ireland.

Yes I was being sarcastic the point still remains, efforts were used in the past to try to increase the number of Irish speakers. And yes while the methods used where not the best there's very little reason to believe current methods are much better. You can't teach someone a language they don't want to learn, no matter how good your teaching skills are.

And yeah, I'd like to see Irish people making an effort to learn foreign languages. Even mumbling a few words in a foreign country can be very appreciated by the locals.

20%, in my opinion, is a good start at least. If you combine the amount of people who achieve A1's in their Leaving Cert Irish exams, Civil Service workers who speak Irish, politicians, Irish teachers, academics and then enthusiasts. I suppose both our figures are speculative so there is no point in really debating them.

It's true that you can't teach someone a language if they don't want to learn it. However, language policy, developed in the universities, particularly, would argue that the language has been dealt with very badly since the foundation of the state. Experiences and opinions regarding the language today are of no surprise to applied linguists. Further development in policy could see the Irish language being treated like the French language in Canada. French Canadians have to deal with similar complaints. Why learn French when France is a tiny economic country compared to the English-speaking giant below?

Whether people on this forum want the Irish language to be further developed is a bit of a non-issue as it's happening now. After the signing of the 20 Year Strategy, and the promise of FG to restructure the language as an LC subject, speakers are thought to rise its numbers even further within the next 15-20 years.

And also:

"The last thing we need would be cultural commisars telling people (be they Irish or English-speakng Irish people) what language they must speak in order to that their culture would be respected?"

Of course, the Irish language is one component of the Irish cultural identity that was properly consolidated in the early 19th Century, that identity is still fairly modern and open to restructuring. It is not about forcing people into speaking the language, it is about trying to preserve one component of the heritage that was spoken by the majority of the country at one point in time, a language that has a fantastic corpus of literature and art (particularly from the 16th century onwards).

I love how Irish people who are anti-Irish language moan about how much money this is costing us when we are indirectly paying for other minority language protection in the EU. We're not the only country protecting a native language. The UN have also been a huge player in minority language development and protection.

Whether the few nay-sayers like it or not, many people will tick the box 'Fluent Speaker in Irish' in the coming census. If the government see that there is this amount of interest they will continue trying to support it. I am actively involved in Irish language development, if you want your voice to be heard organise a protest. Not many will support an anti-Irish language movement.. it's been attempted before the past but didn't go anywhere. Extremist nationalists, unfortunately, are very loud and are on our side (even though that de-linking should have happened a long time ago).

caseyann

theredletter wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that the survey in question is gospel... Lastminute.com may have used the survey as a gimmick, but other research has concluded similar trends. I was merely saying that the poster shouldn't have been criticised for trusting a survey over the other poster's seven year old son's (in)ability to speak Irish.

No matter what your stance is on Irish, there has been other linguistic research done on the matter that can be accessed via JSTOR and your local library. The census is a fantastic source of information for language planning, but there are many difficulties with it (even outside of language planning).

Whether or not the language is dying is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is is that the complete disregard of people to be respectful of native cultures continues to be degraded. Ireland is quickly becoming an homogenised country, and the differences between us and the Americans/ British are lessening each day. But this is not just about Ireland, it is about minority language rights which is an international issue. Minority cultures and languages should not be conserved just to force it on unwilling students, but to show the uniqueness of humanity.

Ignore them,if it was a poll saying hundred percent of Irish people hate Irish the survey would be accurate and serious enough for them.
I am a hundred percent sure IAMFROZEN and a few of the other Anti Irish posters on this thread are not Irish, barr the ones who show a love for Irish and not the rubbish anti Irish sentiment they show to everything culturally Irish.