Is Irish a dead language?

dubhthach

caseyann wrote: »

Ignore them,if it was a poll saying hundred percent of Irish people hate Irish the survey would be accurate and serious enough for them.
I am a hundred percent sure IAMFROZEN and a few of the other Anti Irish posters on this thread are not Irish, barr the ones who show a love for Irish and not the rubbish anti Irish sentiment they show to everything culturally Irish.

Casey that's quite an insulting post, and that's coming from someone who quite likes the Irish language. In general most foreigners have no ill-will towards the Irish language. No more then they would have to any other language that they don't speak themselves. If anything from what I've seen of foreign learners of Irish they don't have the hang-ups that alot of Irish people do.

theredletter

dubhthach wrote: »

Casey that's quite an insulting post, and that's coming from someone who quite likes the Irish language. In general most foreigners have no ill-will towards the Irish language. No more then they would have to any other language that they don't speak themselves. If anything from what I've seen of foreign learners of Irish they don't have the hang-ups that alot of Irish people do.

I'd agree. A lot of research is also underway about International learners of Irish as a means of integration. Very interesting stuff.

Iwasfrozen

dubhthach wrote: »

Your calculation is out by a factor of 100. 170,000 is 2.8% of 6 million.

However including Northern Ireland is abit flawed mainly as Irish is not compulsory subject. I would think most of the 1million members of the Unionist community have next to no exposure to Irish language.

If there is about 3.9 million Irish citizens in the republic (400k non-nationals), then your conservative figure is about 4.3%

In general though if it was up to students most subjects would be dropped, I know that after 5 years of French I can hardly put a sentence together. I would think most of my issue was due to the poor standard of teaching. I just switched off. Now I think if I was to go and learn french in my own time I'd probably be fluent in a considerably quicker time then it would take in the Irish education system.

Oops, sorry about that. Stupid mistake to make but it was late.

But of course Northern Ireland should be included, why shouldn't it? Foras na Gaelige, the governing body of Irish is a cross border organisation.

And all people in the country have to be included, not just Irish citizens. An American who speaks perfect English but no Irish will be just as inconvenienced by this as the majority of Irish people.

cyclopath2001

theredletter wrote: »

I love how Irish people who are anti-Irish language moan about how much money this is costing us

It is deplorable how people who are in favour of the irresponsible wasting scarce tax money, accuse critics of this spending, who just want better value for money and more cost effectiveness, of being 'anti Irish'

Is it not possible to be 'pro Irish' and 'anti waste'?

Iwasfrozen

theredletter wrote: »

20%, in my opinion, is a good start at least. If you combine the amount of people who achieve A1's in their Leaving Cert Irish exams, Civil Service workers who speak Irish, politicians, Irish teachers, academics and then enthusiasts. I suppose both our figures are speculative so there is no point in really debating them.

Yes both our numbers are estimates but 20% of 6.2 million would give 1.24 million. That's way to many Irish speakers. Even the gaelgeoirs on this forum would say that.

theredletter wrote: »

It's true that you can't teach someone a language if they don't want to learn it. However, language policy, developed in the universities, particularly, would argue that the language has been dealt with very badly since the foundation of the state. Experiences and opinions regarding the language today are of no surprise to applied linguists. Further development in policy could see the Irish language being treated like the French language in Canada. French Canadians have to deal with similar complaints. Why learn French when France is a tiny economic country compared to the English-speaking giant below?

I agree that the language has been dealt with very badly since independence. But compulsion can't work, you can't force someone to invest huge amounts of energy learning a language they don't want to.

theredletter wrote: »

Whether people on this forum want the Irish language to be further developed is a bit of a non-issue as it's happening now. After the signing of the 20 Year Strategy, and the promise of FG to restructure the language as an LC subject, speakers are thought to rise its numbers even further within the next 15-20 years.

The people on this forum are young, generally in their twenties. The fact that we have scores of young people coming on here to complain of the waste in the Irish language body is heartening.

And what's even more heartening is the surprising number of people in favour of allowing Irish to be optional for the leaving cert. Kenny may have put his plans "under review" to jump into bed with Labour but the very fact he raised the issue has sparked considerable debate, as this forum and politics.ie will testify. Thanks to Enda forced Irish education is on shaky foundations.

Iwasfrozen

caseyann wrote: »

Ignore them,if it was a poll saying hundred percent of Irish people hate Irish the survey would be accurate and serious enough for them.

No it wouldn't.

caseyann wrote: »

I am a hundred percent sure IAMFROZEN and a few of the other Anti Irish posters on this thread are not Irish, barr the ones who show a love for Irish and not the rubbish anti Irish sentiment they show to everything culturally Irish.

Well then your wrong. I am Irish. Born in Louth, raised is Monaghan, and living in Dublin.

P.S If you were wrong about me being Irish despite being 100% sure, what else are you wrong about despite being 100% sure?

theredletter

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It is deplorable how people who are in favour of the irresponsible wasting scarce tax money, accuse critics of this spending, who just want better value for money and more cost effectiveness, of being 'anti Irish'

Is it not possible to be 'pro Irish' and 'anti waste'?

You read what you wanted to read there, I'm afraid. I agree - wasting money is deplorable, but it happens. Some of it is being wasted, but not all. Translating official documents is a tiny drop in the ocean in terms of cost. Ógras and Cumann na bhFiann, both Irish language organisations, are probably the most organised youth groups in the country. I wouldn't call that a waste of money. A lot of that money comes from the Lotto, as well.

Also, I wasn't calling anyone anti-Irish, I was referring to anti-Irish language people. I wasn't bringing nationality into this. Furthermore, I was detailing the ways in which the UN and EU are fully endorsing minority language conservation. Doing anything different would be in favour of a homogenised and globalised global village with absolutely no egress of variety or difference.

cyclopath2001

theredletter wrote: »

Translating official documents is a tiny drop in the ocean

You're minimising here. the OLA requires much more than just the translation of official documents. And you're omitting the cost of compulsory Irish lessons for native English speaking children.

theredletter wrote: »

I was referring to anti-Irish language people.

Straw people perhaps? According to surveys conducted by the Irish lobby, very few exist.

It's one thing preserving and protecting an existing base of indigenous native Irish speakers, quite another to try to change the daily spoken native language of the vast majority of the population.

Eliot Rosewater

caseyann has been banned from Politics for a week for repeatedly personalising the debate despite many many warnings.

/mod.

dubhthach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oops, sorry about that. Stupid mistake to make but it was late.

But of course Northern Ireland should be included, why shouldn't it? Foras na Gaelige, the governing body of Irish is a cross border organisation.

And all people in the country have to be included, not just Irish citizens. An American who speaks perfect English but no Irish will be just as inconvenienced by this as the majority of Irish people.

Foras na Gaeilge maybe an all island body however the official language act only covers this state. Northern Ireland is part of another state (the UK). Likewise compulsion doesn't exist in Northern Ireland (one of major points of contention across this and other threads).

Tbh I'm confused why would an American be inconvenience by the presence of the irish language? They have access to all government/public services in English etc. Likewise any americans I've talked to who have children in school actually like that their children are learning Irish -- par for the course of bringing up children in a foreign clime.

In general all the foreigners I know (my OH is foreign) have never express inconvenience at the presence of the Irish language. If anything they tend to be quite positive and regard it as part of standard package of Irish culture (the full spectrum from the Language and traditional music to the works of Yeats/Wilde/Joyce/U2 etc)

gigino

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It is deplorable how people who are in favour of the irresponsible wasting scarce tax money, accuse critics of this spending, who just want better value for money and more cost effectiveness, of being 'anti Irish'

Is it not possible to be 'pro Irish' and 'anti waste'?

irish is a dead language and too much taxpayers money is already wasted on it. Let enthusiasts speak it if they want to. Let them spend their own money on buying newspapers and books and magazines in Irish. Flip all people use Irish because I never saw anyone buying a written word in it yet. You never hear it spoken, even in the gaeltacht its a bit of a con in order to get grants.

cyclopath2001

dubhthach wrote: »

Tbh I'm confused why would an American be inconvenience by the presence of the irish language?

it may not be a problem at present, but let's not forget that it is the main aim of a body claiming to represent all Irish language enthusiasts, that Irish will become the common tongue of Ireland.

An all-Irish speaking Ireland will be a very different place to the one we know now.

theredletter

gigino wrote: »

irish is a dead language and too much taxpayers money is already wasted on it. Let enthusiasts speak it if they want to. Let them spend their own money on buying newspapers and books and magazines in Irish. Flip all people use Irish because I never saw anyone buying a written word in it yet. You never hear it spoken, even in the gaeltacht its a bit of a con in order to get grants.

I actually am giving up debating with people who have no idea what they're talking about. Do you know anything about Irish language publishing? Like the private publishing house www.cic.ie who do fantastic business selling Irish language books, or www.litriocht.com or an Siopa Leabhar in Donegal or in Harcourt street. Literature is a massive aspect of Irish language culture. If you picked up a book on cultural nationalism you'd realise how literary development was a massive aspect of the cultural identity.

cyclopath2001

theredletter wrote: »

Like the private publishing house www.cic.ie who do fantastic business selling Irish language books, or www.litriocht.com or an Siopa Leabhar in Donegal or in Harcourt street. Literature is a massive aspect of Irish language culture.

if we were to compare sales of English language literature in Ireland to those in the Irish language, would that help us see the scale of Irish language Irish culture to English language Irish culture? Knowing what people value enough to buy and take the time to read would perhaps be a good metric?

theredletter

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

if we were to compare sales of English language literature in Ireland to those in the Irish language, would that help us see the scale of Irish language Irish culture to English language Irish culture? Knowing what people value enough to buy and take the time to read would perhaps be a good metric?

Not really, mainly because I wouldn't consider book sales the best way to show cultural interest due to the lack of interest in literature in both languages. Of course if we were to take the annual book sales of both languages and compare them, English would win, but the English language has many, many more readers as English is the dominant, majority language of Ireland. I don't know what this would prove to be honest (rather than more people read English than Irish), but it's something you could suggest to the new minister for Gaeltacht affairs. Maybe sales figures from Eason's could somehow be incorporated into future language planning strategies.

My point was was that literature is still a major part of Irish language culture and this can be proven through the many private publishing houses that are in Ireland that sell Irish language literature. It's just as astonishingly absurd as the poster who uses their seven year old son as an example of Ireland's inability to speak Irish. I never ONCE saw someone buy a book on Catholicism, a book in French, a book on Ireland's history, why? Because I rarely look at what people are buying in book shops as I'm too busy reading the book I'm about to purchase. It's just another example at the weak arguments that are made against the language. It doesn't mean that Catholicism, French and Irish history as subjects don't sell books.

I'd also like to point out that we should be focusing more on State protection of the language. Disliking someone, or being disrespectful to them for speaking another language boarders on racism, and Irish people feel they can get away with being horrible about the Irish language because they are Irish. That's why I don't push Irish on people - why bother? -, I tell them the benefits, I tell them to come to me if they want to learn it, but I definitely don't push my ideals on anyone and am frankly too busy to. I have three languages and am proud to be able to speak all of them. Each carries a particular sentiment and meaning to me. If it wasn't for State funding, I wouldn't have had the chance to learn it, and I commend them on continuing to support it, but would suggest they pump the money where it's needed instead.

The Education system, generally, needs to be revamped. I don't think Irish is the only thing that needs to be reformed. Maths and apparently English also need to be looked at.

cyclopath2001

theredletter wrote: »

I'd also like to point out that we should be focusing more on State protection of the language.

I agree that native Irish speaking should be protected, I also think there should be some state patronage of quality Irish literature, but I disagree with those in the Irish lobby who want to make Irish the common tongue of Ireland. I also disagree with those who want to 'protect' the language by forcing others to learn it.

theredletter

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I agree that native Irish speaking should be protected, I also think there should be some state patronage of quality Irish literature, but I disagree with those in the Irish lobby who want to make Irish the common tongue of Ireland. I also disagree with those who want to 'protect' the language by forcing others to learn it.

Agreed.

Cakes.

If they make Irish optional they should also make English optional.

Iwasfrozen

Cakesofrice wrote: »

If they make Irish optional they should also make English optional.

Why? Even comparing irish and english is silly.

Predator_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why? Even comparing irish and english is silly.

I agree, one is our language, the other is the language of the Invader.

gimme5minutes

Predator_ wrote: »

I agree, one is our language, the other is the language of the Invader.

We were never invaded by the gaelgoiri.

In my 35 years in this country I have never once been spoken to in Irish (outside of school). Fact is Irish is stone dead outside of the gaeltacht regions. Every person in the country has been forced to spend 12 years learning it for the past 80 years, and there has been millions/billions been spend on promoting it by the government and what has been the end result? No-one speaks it outside the gaeltacht (and many in the gaeltacht even use English ahead of Irish). It is not 'our' language, it is our ancestors language. It is a costly relic. English is our language, get over it.

astrofool

Cakesofrice wrote: »

If they make Irish optional they should also make English optional.

English is optional. As is Maths.

Trenchman

To get back to the original point,I don't think Irish is a dead language. I think that the official census to be taken in April will show a rise in fluency in Irish of between 5 and 10%. The successful implementation of the 20 Year Strategy allied with an open-minded, supportive attitude from this government will see further growth in the language. The Irish-language media grows stronger by the month and I think it's fair to say that there is huge goodwill towards the language from most people whether they want to learn the cúpla focail or not. So all in all,I think you'd have to say it's not dead. As the old seanfhocal from down Waterford way goes, 'Beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach!'

dubhthach

astrofool wrote: »

English is optional. As is Maths.

Isn't it a case though that many schools insist that certain subjects are sat?

For example it was compulsory for us to do English at Leaving cert level in my secondary school. Of course a C3 in Higher English didn't really have any impact on studying IT in University (Macbeth is a good story though)

Tbh I would have preferred dropping English and studying Physics and Chemistry as separate subjects (I did Phys-chem - B1)

Lord TSC

Cakesofrice wrote: »

If they make Irish optional they should also make English optional.

Ignoring the Invader comment which came later, I just want to address this...again!

Time and time again, people have said this, and time and time again, I think the majority have said they agreed. As an English teacher, I see the value of the subject but ultimatly if people don't want to study it, they shouldn't be forced to. If people would rather learn a different subject, they should be given the choice. I'm not being personal here, but you're not the first person to make this point. It's been addressed multiple times and every time yields the same answer; you're right. It should.

As for the "It already is" stance, while legally Irish may be the only obligitory subject, English and Maths really are as well. Do any schools not force students to learn the two? I think though that's more because, iirc, most Uni's insist on students have English, Maths and two languages, of which Irish counts as one. If English and Maths were made optional, I guess the Uni application system would need a slight look at as well.

astrofool

Schools teach English/Maths because Uni's deem them essential for third level education (writing thesis, logic problems and calculations are needed in virtually all courses). However, a student isn't forced to do them, esp. if they definitely are not going on to third level education.

Irish is mandatory because Irish is mandatory. Only Irish schooled students need Irish to attend uni's over here, it is not part of the Uni's requirements, but part of the state's requirements.

Uni's often require a foreign language for a course, interestingly, Irish isn't enough, and you need to have passed French/German etc. as well.

Anyway, it's going to be deader in 20 years, than aliver, regardless of how you measure death or aliveness (Irish is currently in a permanently vegetative state).

Cakes.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

No-one speaks it outside the gaeltacht (and many in the gaeltacht even use English ahead of Irish).

Not True. I know people who don't live in Gaeltacht regions and use Irish as their first language and even their kids who are not even in school yet speak it.

Trenchman

astrofool wrote: »

Schools teach English/Maths because Uni's deem them essential for third level education (writing thesis, logic problems and calculations are needed in virtually all courses). However, a student isn't forced to do them, esp. if they definitely are not going on to third level education.

Irish is mandatory because Irish is mandatory. Only Irish schooled students need Irish to attend uni's over here, it is not part of the Uni's requirements, but part of the state's requirements.

Uni's often require a foreign language for a course, interestingly, Irish isn't enough, and you need to have passed French/German etc. as well.

Anyway, it's going to be deader in 20 years, than aliver, regardless of how you measure death or aliveness (Irish is currently in a permanently vegetative state).

astrofool, you're well entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but the language is not in a 'permanently vegetative state.'
Two weekly newspapers, four all Irish radio stations, a national channel as Gaeilge which to be fair to it gets reasonably good viewing figures for it's size, countless websites, a national debate amongst the three largest parties as Gaeilge (with the other two leaders having reasonable Irish), a thriving traditional music scene (check www.oireachtas.ie,www.oaim.ie,www.gradam.ie) and a growth in the numbers of children attending Gaelscoileanna would point to a language that's well alive.
I've only recently gotten the grá for the teanga and I'm really enjoying learning it and learning more about my culture.
And look, it's cool if people don't want to learn the language or if you couldn't care less what happens to it. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, that's grand like.
But I just want to make the point that there's a lot going on that people might not know about.

cyclopath2001

Trenchman wrote: »

'Two weekly newspapers

Name them? Didn't one of them fail because, even though heavily subsidised, not enough Irish speakers would buy it at the reduced price?

Trenchman wrote: »

four all Irish radio stations, a national channel as Gaeilge which to be fair to it gets reasonably good viewing figures for it's size,

Are these all subsidised or do they pay their way? Last time I looked at TG4, it was showing an old Bruce Willis movie, in English, without any Irish subtitles. So much for promoting Irish culture.

Trenchman wrote: »

countless websites,

Countless quangos.

Trenchman

Hi cyclopath,
Newspapers: Foinse and Gaelscéal. You're spot on, Foinse did fail a few years back.It's now a free supplement in the Indo each Wednesday and it's thriving since it's relaunch.There are also a number of monthly magazines.
Radio Stations: RnaG/Anocht FM, Raidio Rí Rá, Raidio na Life, Raidio Fáilte and a few internet only stations too. As far as I'm aware, RnaG is the only fully subsidised station among those.
Your TG4 comment is also correct.They show a lot of English content to drive advertising which in turn gives them the revenue to produce the quality Irish programming that they are known for.I have no problem with that and I doubt any Gaeilgeoir who watches does. I think they do an exceptional job. Even before I started to improve my Irish, me and my family would watch a lot of their content.
The quangos comment is a bit wide of the mark. Lots of websites do receive government funding, and rightly so, but a lot of sites I've seen don't.
I'm not here to plead with people to check all this stuff out. I respect the fact that people don't care for the language too much. All I'm saying is that a lot of people do use these sites,stations and print media so I'd like to see them continue.