Is Irish a dead language?

faobhar

Actually, on a not exactly comparable but similar note, Beijing are looking for Irish (& English) teachers: http://gaelport.com/sonrai-phoist?PositionID=311

faobhar

deise go deo wrote: »

I would ask you two questions, Why do you hate Irish, and why the hell are you studying it?

You don't have to study it, there is nothing the school can do to make you study it, stop studying it, either that or just drop to foundation, which is basically the same thing.

Any more questions?

In fairness deise, you are being a little bit unfair here. In the realpolitik of most schools gimme5minutes' fictional LC student would be compelled to do Irish.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

I'll ask deise go deo this question again -

Answer me this. Say I am a LC student. I hate Irish and have always been useless at it. I would like to drop it and do applied maths instead which I am good at and foresee myself using in my future career. Why in the name of god should I be forced to do Irish in this situation? What do you think I should be forced to do Irish instead of Applied Maths?

I'll answer your question though, gimme5minutes. The reason you have to study Irish is that it is the first national language of your country. If you have a problem with being compelled to take the subject, you first need to tackle the place of the language in the constitution. It is only reasonable that the first official language of a country would be among the compulsory subjects within its education system, it's part of the national agenda.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

What it means is that I was posting in a rush because I have course work to do, and I had the word 'restoration' in my head because I had just read it. .

A Freudian slip perhaps?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

A Freudian slip perhaps?

The sad thing was I was just waiting for you to say it. No it was not any kind of slip.



I HAVE OUTLINED MY POSITION ALREADY, PLEASE STOP THIS CHILDISH TIME WASTING!!!!!:mad::mad:

Lord TSC

You don't have to study it, there is nothing the school can do to make you study it, stop studying it, either that or just drop to foundation, which is basically the same thing.


Yeap, and in the process, screw yourself over when it comes to applying to the NUI Unis and enjoy that nice big "F" grade on your paper

deise go deo

faobhar wrote: »

In fairness deise, you are being a little bit unfair here. In the realpolitik of most schools gimme5minutes' fictional LC student would be compelled to do Irish.

Thats just the thing, The school really can do nothing. There is no requirment to sit the LC Irish Papers. There is nothing only aggro from the school to stop anyone not doing Irish.

If the student dosent want conflict with the school, as I suggested, they should drop to foundation level, thats as close to not studying as is possible while being in an Irish class. The reason its there is to cater for people who don't want to study Irish.

Lord TSC

There is no requirment to sit the LC Irish Papers.

So when the Taoisach and the Dep. of Ed. say it is the only compulsory subject, they are lying right?

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

You don't have to study it, there is nothing the school can do to make you study it, stop studying it, either that or just drop to foundation, which is basically the same thing.


Yeap, and in the process, screw yourself over when it comes to applying to the NUI Unis and enjoy that nice big "F" grade on your paper

If they don't want an F grade, they can just do Foundation.

As for NUI, Thats hardly relevant, the same apply's to several other supposedly optional subjects.

If Irish was made optional tomorrow, the NUI requirment would still be there.

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Sp when the Taoisach and the Dep. of Ed. say it is the only compulsory subject, they are lying right?

Show me anything, anything at all that sets out what will be done if a student refuses to study Irish.

Show me a case of anything being done to a student that refuses to study Irish.

Irish is compulsory, that in its self dosent mean that the school can force someone who refuses to study Irish to study it.

Hypothetical situation.

Student point blank refuses to study Irish, School contacts parents and the parents side with the student.

What next? What can the school do to force the student to study Irish?

Lord TSC

deise go deo wrote: »

If they don't want an F grade, they can just do Foundation.

Which, in the points race, means nothing and is completly unfair to suggest to a top level A grade student.

As for NUI, Thats hardly relevant, the same apply's to several other supposedly optional subjects.

If Irish was made optional tomorrow, the NUI requirment would still be there.

Which is why, as a surplus, I'd edit those requirements as well. Make it so that you still need two languages, so that Irish can count, but it isn't compulsory as it is now.

Lord TSC

Show me anything, anything at all that sets out what will be done if a student refuses to study Irish.

Show me a case of anything being done to a student that refuses to study Irish.

Irish is compulsory, that in its self dosent mean that the school can force someone who refuses to study Irish to study it.

Hypothetical situation.

Student point blank refuses to study Irish, School contacts parents and the parents side with the student.

What next? What can the school do to force the student to study Irish?

I can't give a direct answer there cause I don't have the experience to answer fully. Will get answer from professionals with said experience and report back...

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Which, in the points race, means nothing and is completly unfair to suggest to a top level A grade student.

Why? There is no time requirement for Foundation Irish. It is a compleat piss take of an exam. They can then use the time to study their other subjects and still get up to 600 points.

Which is why, as a surplus, I'd edit those requirements as well. Make it so that you still need two languages, so that Irish can count, but it isn't compulsory as it is now.

So now your going to tell universityes what they can and cant do in terms of matriculation?
Would you do the same with English? Maths? Perhaps no course should have any attached requirment, put a full stop to compulsion.

dubhthach

Godge wrote: »

1. Horse manure - resort to insults when you can't address the arguments

2. I have many "new Irish" friends who resent their children having to learn Irish. We can all have anecdotal friends and spouses.

3. I have no problem with the language being part of our culture and heritage. Neither do I hate the language. I do not believe the language should be compulsory at Leaving Cert. I also believe the OLA is a complete waste of money and Irish Language expertise. I also believe it is being kept artificially alive in Gaeltacht regions for economic and government subsidy reasons. But it is easy to dismiss the points I make by saying I hate the language.

4. Never said Ireland should be monolingual. In fact people can speak as many languages as they wish. Different parts of the country can have signs in Irish, French, Polish, Estonian or Latin. I just believe that English is the common denominator across all of the cultures and heritages in this country be they African or Eastern European immigrants or Aran Islanders and that English should therefore be the common language of business and public life.

You can call me an Irish-hater or whatever but all of the above are valid positions, opinions and arguments.

P.S. I have spent a lot of my time and life in Galway over the years and don't need to be told to go down there to open my ears.

What argument of yours is there to be addressed? that all Irish speakers are jingoistic xenophobic little-irelanders who are preparing to put on a white hood while they go dancing at the crossroads during a lynching? That's basically what you were implying in your original post. That anyone who speaks Irish or shows any interest in speaking Irish is some sort of crypto-facist whose goal in life is to define who is Irish :rolleyes:

Personally I'd think ye about as likely to meet someone of the above description as you are to bump into the Boogie man.

As regard the Gaeltacht, the boundaries set in 1956 were mostly set for Political reasons and do not reflect the situation on the ground. I'm in complete agreement regarding redrawing of these based on districts having at least 40-50% daily Irish speakers (outside of education system -- 10-15x national average)There are over 15k people living in Cois Fharriage who use Irish on a daily basis, the core of the Cois Fharriage gaeltacht consists of 6 electoral districts where over 90% of population are daily speakers of Irish. Very few of these people relay on "Gaeltacht industry jobs" or government subsidy. Most of them either commute into Galway to work in factories/offices or work in Agriculture/Fisheries and Tourism related businesses. Likewise there are over 2k daily speakers living in parts of Galway city that are still in the Gaeltacht, I don't think native speakers living in Knocknacarra, Castlegar or Ballybrit get any benefits from the "Gaeltacht industry jobs" you mention.

In general such jobs (I'm assuming you mean around language colleges) are held by a tiny minority of the Gaeltacht population who jealousy guard what they have, sort of similiar to how the Publicans wail about competition from off-licenses. Using a small minority of the Gaeltacht population (probably about 5% max) to paint the entire population is sloppy.

Lord TSC

Would you do the same with English? Maths? Perhaps no course should have any attached requirment, put a full stop to compulsion.

*Facedeskfacedeskfacedesk*

I've already said I think whatever changes are made to Irish compulsion wise should be made accross the board.

As far as colleges go, I see no reason why someone would need English if they plan on doing maths, or vice versa. Surely the only requirements on what subjects are nessecary to get into a college course would be based on what the course was; to do English at 3rd level, you need to have done it at second, to do Maths at 3rd, you need it at second, etc etc.

The whole "Perhaps no course should have any attached requirment, put a full stop to compulsion." is EXACTLY what I've been saying for 200+ pages now. NOTHING SHOULD BE COMPULSORY AT SECOND LEVEL as everyone should be allowed place their own priorities based on what future we plan on. Of course this would then carry on to third level.

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I can't give a direct answer there cause I don't have the experience to answer fully. Will get answer from professionals with said experience and report back...

Fair enough, I await your reply with interest.:)

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I've already said I think whatever changes are made to Irish compulsion wise should be made accross the board.

I know, But you are getting into dificult terotory if you expect the dept to dictate to Universities what they can and cannot do.

Do you not think that there may be a very good reason for these requirments to be in place?

Also, as to your Two languages requirment, with Irish being allowed as one of them.
Going by the logic of your argument, surely this would not be acceptable?
For courses such as Aroenautical Engineering(For example) what possible reason would there be to require two languages?

Focalbhach

deise go deo wrote: »

I know, But you are getting into dificult terotory if you expect the dept to dictate to Universities what they can and cannot do.

Do you not think that there may be a very good reason for these requirments to be in place?

Also, as to your Two languages requirment, with Irish being allowed as one of them.
Going by the logic of your argument, surely this would not be acceptable?
For courses such as Aroenautical Engineering(For example) what possible reason would there be to require two languages?

I think all of this is a sidetrack which is veering way off course...

deise go deo

Leto wrote: »

I think all of this is a sidetrack which is veering way off course...

Off course? The OP hasent been discussed in this thread for about 6 months. That said, post two said all that really need to be said in relation to the OP.

Of course if you think its a problem I am happy to stop posting on this point.

dubhthach

Regarding the OLA the cost of translations work out at €1million a year. Say there are 80k daily speakers of the Irish language. If we assume that 35k-40k (adults) of these are working and earning the averge industrial wage (33k) then their total income tax contribution works out at over €200 million a year. Or about the amount of money that the HSE pissed away on the PPARS system which never worked.

Personally I think the only county development plans that are translated are for local authorities that have a Gaeltacht within their boundaries namely:
* Galway (County and City)
* Mayo
* Kerry
* Donegal

Specifically those that have Category A Gaeltacht's -- districts with over 65% of population speaking Irish on daily basis.

In general though why are local authorities printing reports. Isn't this not why we have the PDF format and the Internet?

deise go deo

dubhthach wrote: »

Regarding the OLA the cost of translations work out at €1million a year. Say there are 80k daily speakers of the Irish language. If we assume that 35k-40k (adults) of these are working and earning the averge industrial wage (33k) then their total income tax contribution works out at over €200 million a year. Or about the amount of money that the HSE pissed away on the PPARS system which never worked.

1 Million a year?

Thats what people are having kittens over?:eek: FFS:rolleyes:

Personally I think the only county development plans that are translated are for local authorities that have a Gaeltacht within their boundaries namely:
* Galway (County and City)
* Mayo
* Kerry
* Donegal

I'm not sure on this point, Remember it was Clare CC that the article was about.

In general though why are local authorities printing reports. Isn't this not why we have the PDF format and the Internet?

I'm not sure, An Coimisinéir Teanga did specifically state that publishing the Irish version online was an acceptable alternative to printing.

Cakes.

dubhthach wrote: »

Regarding the OLA the cost of translations work out at €1million a year. Say there are 80k daily speakers of the Irish language. If we assume that 35k-40k (adults) of these are working and earning the averge industrial wage (33k) then their total income tax contribution works out at over €200 million a year. Or about the amount of money that the HSE pissed away on the PPARS system which never worked.

Personally I think the only county development plans that are translated are for local authorities that have a Gaeltacht within their boundaries namely:
* Galway (County and City)
* Mayo
* Kerry
* Donegal

Specifically those that have Category A Gaeltacht's -- districts with over 65% of population speaking Irish on daily basis.

In general though why are local authorities printing reports. Isn't this not why we have the PDF format and the Internet?

And what about those form outside the Gaeltacht who use Irish? Will they be forced to use a different language?

aidan24326

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Argh! You already have a good grasp of the English language when you reach JC level.

Not all kids do though, that's for sure.

Shakespeare, Patrick Kavanagh, Antarctic and My Left Foot have not helped my get ahead in business in later life

I wasn't talking about Shakespeare and Patrick Kavanagh. I would be very much of the opinion that learning all that Shakespeare stuff is of questionable value. The English curriculum could do with an overhaul too.

Not everything in the world is about making money. The Irish language is something we should cherish, not because it will make us an extra punt, but because it is part of what we are; it is distinctly Irish and not many things can be said to be distinctly Irish (apart from an astounding talent to argue over matters of symbolism regarding our nationality, of course!)

See this is where you and I would differ at a fundamental level, in that I don't buy into nor particularly care about the whole 'part of our cultural heritage' stuff. Languages come and go, they live and die, the world moves on. If Irish went extinct tomorrow morning I actually wouldn't care that much. Not because I dislike the language in any way (I was actually decent enough at it in school) but because I take a cold pragmatic view towards language. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong or vice versa, I guess we just don't look at it in the same way.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

1 Million a year?
Thats what people are having kittens over?:eek: FFS:rolleyes:

The OLA imposes expensive obligations beyond the printing of reports in Irish.

Most of the small number of people who complain to the Irish Language Commissioner about the non-availability of services in Irish, are not native Irish speakers.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The OLA imposes expensive obligations beyond the printing of reports in Irish.

Obligations such as?

So you don't have a problem with the reports then?

Most of the small number of people who complain to the Irish Language Commissioner about the non-availability of services in Irish, are not native Irish speakers.

Your point being?

The number of people making complaints to An Coimisinéir Teanga is increasing.

And if I recall correctly, the report identified most complaints as coming from Gaeltacht areas.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Obligations such as?

The provision of all public services through the medium of Irish, regardless of cost, demand or necessity.

deise go deo wrote: »

So you don't have a problem with the reports then?

For people who speak only Irish, I can see a need.

deise go deo wrote: »

And if I recall correctly, the report identified most complaints as coming from Gaeltacht areas.

Er, no....it was 18%. i.e .....about 120 people.

Godge

dubhthach wrote: »

Regarding the OLA the cost of translations work out at €1million a year. Say there are 80k daily speakers of the Irish language. If we assume that 35k-40k (adults) of these are working and earning the averge industrial wage (33k) then their total income tax contribution works out at over €200 million a year. Or about the amount of money that the HSE pissed away on the PPARS system which never worked.

Personally I think the only county development plans that are translated are for local authorities that have a Gaeltacht within their boundaries namely:
* Galway (County and City)
* Mayo
* Kerry
* Donegal

Specifically those that have Category A Gaeltacht's -- districts with over 65% of population speaking Irish on daily basis.

In general though why are local authorities printing reports. Isn't this not why we have the PDF format and the Internet?

Do you have a source for the €1 million? Who collated that as the amount would be incurred by each separate public sector organisation as part of their printing and translating costs? Who separated out the invoices and apportioned the costs appropriate to Irish. For example, in the case of those reports which are printed alternative pages Irish and English, was the cost of printing that report divided or was only the cost of translation included.


The relevant extract from the OLA is:

"10.—Notwithstanding any other enactment, the following documents
made by or under the authority of a public body (other than
a body, organisation or group standing prescribed pursuant to regulations
for the purposes of clause (b) of paragraph 1(5) of the First
Schedule) shall be published by that body in each of the official languages
simultaneously:
(a) any document setting out public policy proposals;
(b) any annual report;
(c) any audited account or financial statement;
(d) any statement of strategy required to be prepared under
section 5 of the Public Service Management Act 1997;
and
(e) any document of a description or class standing prescribed for
the time being, with the consent of the Minister for Finance
and such other (if any) Minister of the Government as the
Minister considers appropriate having regard to the functions
of that other Minister of the Government, and being
a document of a description or class that is, in the opinion

of the Minister, of major public importance."

Draft Development plans (not just final plans) clearly fall under (a). I wonder does anyone have a full list of documents covered under (e).

€1 million is a serious understimate.

dubhthach

Dáil debate 1st July 2010

Then Minister Pat Carey response:
http://www.kildarestreet.com/debate/?id=2010-07-01.984.3

I understand what the Deputy is saying. However, as regards translation costs and so on, it has been pointed out by my predecessor on several occasions that the Act does not require that all documents be translated into Irish. It provides that only a number of key documents shall be published in each of the official languages. The question of costs since the Act was introduced in 2003 was addressed in a reply on 3 February. Of the 15 Departments of State, 11 replied. It is estimated by my Department that the average direct cost amounted to approximately €600,000 per annum or approximately €55,000 per Department. I am of the view that no fair minded person would consider these costs excessive or unreasonable. I also believe that public bodies, particularly in regard to the translation of documents can, as Deputy O’Shea said, achieve greater cost effectiveness. This could be secured by planning earlier in the process for translation, greater use of standardised templates for documents such as annual reports, which are available, and publication by way of CD or the Internet rather than hard copy.

The development by Forás na Gaeilge of a number of support services, including the roll-out of the accreditation system for translators and the development of an Irish language translation memory resource for public bodies will also assist in ensuring public bodies receive a translation product that is reliable and meets a high standard. I do not support the view that money is not being wisely spent in respect of implementation of the Official Languages Act.

Brian Lenihan went into bit more detail regarding spilt between translation and printing costs in Dept of Finance for 2008 and 2009. As I said before I don't know why printing is needed for most of this stuff (be it in English or Irish -- PDF is way to go)

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-11-24.968.0

Translation costs for Department of Taoiseach were given by Cowen in Feb 2009:

Translation costs 2003 – €28,245

Translation costs 2004 – €40,673

Translation costs 2005 – €46,786

Translation costs 2006 – €81,527

Translation costs 2007 – €68,511

Translation costs 2008 – €56,873

It seems that Department of Foreign affairs spent: €37,067 in translation and €30,597 in printing for a period of 23months (Jan 2008 - Nov 26th 2009), it would seem that they didn't print all the documents some only been available on the web (PDF)
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-11-24.1705.0&s=%22translation+costs%22#g1707.0.r

The Sunday Tribune have an article on how €6.2 million was wasted in translation over 6 years. This ties in with was Carey said when questioned in the Dáil in July 2010.

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2009/feb/15/mind-your-language-more-than-6m-is-lost-in-transla/

deise go deo

Godge, I assume that satisfied your doubt, so do you think 1 million a year on translation is a waste of money for the amount of people it gives a choice to?

dubhthach

deise go deo wrote: »

Godge, I assume that satisfied your doubt, so do you think 1 million a year on translation is a waste of money for the amount of people it gives a choice to?

Déise tbh I myself think that savings could be made in this area. Namely:

1. All Translation should be in-house -- large amounts of cost goes to outsource translation companies -- this adds a premium
2. Reduction of printing costs -- easily at least 25% of costs go on printing -- most documents do not need to be printed (E-Government?)

cyclopath2001

dubhthach wrote: »

Déise tbh I myself think that savings could be made in this area. Namely:

1. All Translation should be in-house -- large amounts of cost goes to outsource translation companies -- this adds a premium
2. Reduction of printing costs -- easily at least 25% of costs go on printing -- most documents do not need to be printed (E-Government?)

Translations must be done by people certified competant or the resulting documents may be legally challenged. The language commissioner has acknowledged that many organisations subject to his demands are unable to meet them as they are staffed by people who only speak English.

His office costs 740k per annum to run.

Lets not forget that the OLA demands that computer systems, telephone services and signs must be in Irish and English, irrespective of need or cost. All it takes is for one Irish enthusiast to make a complain to trigger an investigation followed by some very expensive demands.