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Is Irish a dead language?
Comments
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »Translations must be done by people certified competant or the resulting documents may be legally challenged. The language commissioner has acknowledged that many organisations subject to his demands are unable to meet them as they are staffed by people who only speak English.
His office costs 740k per annum to run.
Lets not forget that the OLA demands that computer systems, telephone services and signs must be in Irish and English, irrespective of need or cost. All it takes is for one Irish enthusiast to make a complain to trigger an investigation followed by some very expensive demands.
Just as well Microsoft provide Irish language support for both Windows XP and Windows 7:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=0db2e8f9-79c4-4625-a07a-0cc1b341be7c&displaylang=ga
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=a1a48de1-e264-48d6-8439-ab7139c9c14d&displaylang=ga
Seems they've also launched Office 2010 support as well:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=CFEC65B7-131C-440F-953F-43731FDABB8B&displaylang=ga
If for example you decide to use the whole "Cloud" approach and go with Google Apps, well Google also provide these in Irish.
As someone who works for a software development company I can tell you that the most expensive part of translating a piece of software is:- Providing a framework for multi-language support (biggest cost)
- Initial translation -- building up of technical thesaurus
Microsoft have had built in multi-lingual frameworks for over 20 years. Regarding the second part, once you've done an intial translation this will provide for 90% of the work in future releases. It's basically a matter of translating any new "strings" in the product and QA of existing.
All computers shipped in Ireland for the last 20 years have supported fada's you just have to select the right keyboard mapping. By default if you select Ireland as your location in Windows it installs the "Irish keyboard", if you want to go old-school you can download a free mapping that allows you to do: ċ ḋ ḟ ġ ṁ ṗ ṡ ṫ ɼ ſ ⁊
As for the OLA lets go for blowout costs. Lets say that figure I posted above is an under-estimate by a factor of 4, in which case translation costs etc work out at about €4million across all elements of local and national goverenment (HSE etc). This works out at about €1 per resident of the country per year or if we just take a workforce 1.7 million (it was 2million in 2006) this works out about €2.40 per member of workforce.
On the average industrial wage of €33,000 the total tax take is about €6,000 per year for such a wage. As a result to cover such a large translation cost would require the full tax take of about 670 Irish speakers (earning average industrial wage)
Regarding signs, the cost for a sign is based on the dimensions and type of sign (motorway, street corner, indoor, outdoor etc.). The sign maker isn't going to charge you an extra 30% because you put more characters on it. As for placenames there is a comprehensive database that was built up between 1920 and 1950 and which additional have been made. If you need translation for a sign you enter query in database and bang there ye go -- no translation cost needed.
There's even a handy web interface to it: http://www.logainm.ie/0 -
FYI, since I don't think there was any conclusive resolution when this was discussed a few weeks back:Irish Times wrote:[Ruairí] Quinn told Peadar Tóibín (SF) that the status of Irish as a compulsory examination subject would remain.0
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deise go deo wrote: »Godge, I assume that satisfied your doubt, so do you think 1 million a year on translation is a waste of money for the amount of people it gives a choice to?
No, It did not satisfy my doubt.
I looked at the Department of Finance figures in detail. For one Department and seven agencies under its aegis, the total was €212,849 for 2008, a figure that did not include full printing costs.
Applying that to fifteen Department and 85 agencies would give a total of €3.2m approx. Given that there are hundreds of quangos, that would not be enough. For example, take the Department of Education and Skills, 32 VECs, 14 IoTs, 7 universities and numerous other quangos forced to publish their reports in Irish. And in these cases they do publish their annual reports and strategic plans because they also serve as marketing tools for such organisations (the valuation office wouldn't be in the same category)
Extrapolating out to semi-state organisations like CIE, to major state bodies such as Fas, IDA, Enterprise Ireland etc., as well as all of the local authorities and hospitals, I reckon that €15-20m would be a closer approximation. That is a lot of money in these times.0 -
Just as well Microsoft provide Irish language support for both Windows XP and Windows 7:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=0db2e8f9-79c4-4625-a07a-0cc1b341be7c&displaylang=ga
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=a1a48de1-e264-48d6-8439-ab7139c9c14d&displaylang=ga
Seems they've also launched Office 2010 support as well:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=CFEC65B7-131C-440F-953F-43731FDABB8B&displaylang=ga
If for example you decide to use the whole "Cloud" approach and go with Google Apps, well Google also provide these in Irish.
As someone who works for a software development company I can tell you that the most expensive part of translating a piece of software is:- Providing a framework for multi-language support (biggest cost)
- Initial translation -- building up of technical thesaurus
All computers shipped in Ireland for the last 20 years have supported fada's you just have to select the right keyboard mapping. By default if you select Ireland as your location in Windows it installs the "Irish keyboard", if you want to go old-school you can download a free mapping that allows you to do: ċ ḋ ḟ ġ ṁ ṗ ṡ ṫ ɼ ſ ⁊
As for the OLA lets go for blowout costs. Lets say that figure I posted above is an under-estimate by a factor of 4, in which case translation costs etc work out at about €4million across all elements of local and national goverenment (HSE etc). This works out at about €1 per resident of the country per year or if we just take a workforce 1.7 million (it was 2million in 2006) this works out about €2.40 per member of workforce.
On the average industrial wage of €33,000 the total tax take is about €6,000 per year for such a wage. As a result to cover such a large translation cost would require the full tax take of about 670 Irish speakers (earning average industrial wage)
Regarding signs, the cost for a sign is based on the dimensions and type of sign (motorway, street corner, indoor, outdoor etc.). The sign maker isn't going to charge you an extra 30% because you put more characters on it. As for placenames there is a comprehensive database that was built up between 1920 and 1950 and which additional have been made. If you need translation for a sign you enter query in database and bang there ye go -- no translation cost needed.
There's even a handy web interface to it: http://www.logainm.ie/
You can't use automatic translation programmes. The language commissioner wouldn't allow it.
As for the signs, I had forgotten them. Each sign would be half the cost if Irish was not required. A big annual saving there.0 -
Ok I'm joining this discussion a little late having only just come from a thread over on Infrastructure about Dublin Bus and it's new Real Time Information Displays.
I was in utter astonishment to see the thread derailed by one particular poster who's "outrage" that these signs did not display the Irish names for places led him to not only lodge a complaint (which is his right in fairness), but then come onto the thread in question gloating and goading other posters into various off-topic rants about the viability of the Irish language (which I'll get to in a minute don't worry!). At first I thought it must just be trolling but nope - he was deadly serious!
What's worse is that this complaint was apparently upheld, resulting in tax payer's money being spent to rewrite and test the software to accomodate this.
(Now here's where my rant starts, so get comfy...)
I can't BELIEVE that in the midst of the worst financial crisis to hit this country EVER, we are STILL wasting money to accomodate the "special interest" groups like this.
Irish (as a practical everyday language) is DEAD. It's of no practical use outside this State and very limited use inside it. I've no objection to people speaking and educating their children in/through Irish at all, but this should be done by those individuals themselves at home, or through privately funded tuition, Irish language schools etc
Speaking of children, in our increasingly multi-cultural country, why should Irish still be forced upon every child that enters the education system (unless they apply for, and are given, a special exemption by the Department).
Bearing in mind my point about its usefulness anyway, when I was a kid in the 80's we moved to Holland for a few years and I (naturally enough) attended various Dutch schools. EVERY kid in my class spoke at least Dutch and English and often another language (or 2) as well!
That doesn't mean that all these individual minority languages (from the perspective of the class as a whole) were accomodated - rather it was left to their parents to teach them (y'know, parents actually RAISING their kids and taking an interest in their education - as opposed to the "can't someone else do it?" mentallity that too many people have nowadays).
The Dutch system didn't include "religion" as a subject either for much the same reasons - but that's another thread
Those kids and the ones that followed them are the ones that are now being hired by the multinationals we're so dependent on in this country while our own unemployed get left on the dole queues and THEIR kids waste time on a language that will be of no use to 99% of them!
A much better idea would be to replace this time in classes (at Primary level) with say French or German - even Chinese would be of more value considering their rising economy!
This should (as it is now) be continued into Secondary level with extra languages brought on stream.. ideally every Irish child should finish Secondary school with English and fluency in at least 1 other primary European language.
I work in IT so let's use that as an example - have a look at most of the jobs that are on offer (what little there are). The majority of them will require fluency in another language - be it German, French, Dutch, Polish.. whatever!
Now they may not be GREAT jobs but what good is an Irish kid saying "well er I can speak English, a bit of German and I know how to curse in Irish" to one of these potential employers? Want to know why "dey tuk our jobs" :rolleyes: - because we CAN'T do them ourselves!
Irish has had it's day and the country has moved on - just as we are no longer ruled by the Church and the abuse that came with it for many people, and many other ideas that held this country back for so long.
It's time to accept it and if you wish to keep the language alive, by all means speak it at home, with friends, and teach it to your kids but stop trying to drag the country as a whole back to accomodate your unrealistic vision of a native-Irish speaking Ireland, because it just won't happen and if we are to survive as a country we need to start facing up to some harsh realities anyway.0 -
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Kaiser2000 wrote: »Ok I'm joining this discussion a little late having only just come from a thread over on Infrastructure about Dublin Bus and it's new Real Time Information Displays.
I was in utter astonishment to see the thread derailed by one particular poster who's "outrage" that these signs did not display the Irish names for places led him to not only lodge a complaint (which is his right in fairness), but then come onto the thread in question gloating and goading other posters into various off-topic rants about the viability of the Irish language (which I'll get to in a minute don't worry!). At first I thought it must just be trolling but nope - he was deadly serious!
What's worse is that this complaint was apparently upheld, resulting in tax payer's money being spent to rewrite and test the software to accomodate this.
(Now here's where my rant starts, so get comfy...)
I can't BELIEVE that in the midst of the worst financial crisis to hit this country EVER, we are STILL wasting money to accomodate the "special interest" groups like this.
Irish (as a practical everyday language) is DEAD. It's of no practical use outside this State and very limited use inside it. I've no objection to people speaking and educating their children in/through Irish at all, but this should be done by those individuals themselves at home, or through privately funded tuition, Irish language schools etc
Speaking of children, in our increasingly multi-cultural country, why should Irish still be forced upon every child that enters the education system (unless they apply for, and are given, a special exemption by the Department).
Bearing in mind my point about its usefulness anyway, when I was a kid in the 80's we moved to Holland for a few years and I (naturally enough) attended various Dutch schools. EVERY kid in my class spoke at least Dutch and English and often another language (or 2) as well!
That doesn't mean that all these individual minority languages (from the perspective of the class as a whole) were accomodated - rather it was left to their parents to teach them (y'know, parents actually RAISING their kids and taking an interest in their education - as opposed to the "can't someone else do it?" mentallity that too many people have nowadays).
The Dutch system didn't include "religion" as a subject either for much the same reasons - but that's another thread
Those kids and the ones that followed them are the ones that are now being hired by the multinationals we're so dependent on in this country while our own unemployed get left on the dole queues and THEIR kids waste time on a language that will be of no use to 99% of them!
A much better idea would be to replace this time in classes (at Primary level) with say French or German - even Chinese would be of more value considering their rising economy!
This should (as it is now) be continued into Secondary level with extra languages brought on stream.. ideally every Irish child should finish Secondary school with English and fluency in at least 1 other primary European language.
I work in IT so let's use that as an example - have a look at most of the jobs that are on offer (what little there are). The majority of them will require fluency in another language - be it German, French, Dutch, Polish.. whatever!
Now they may not be GREAT jobs but what good is an Irish kid saying "well er I can speak English, a bit of German and I know how to curse in Irish" to one of these potential employers? Want to know why "dey tuk our jobs" :rolleyes: - because we CAN'T do them ourselves!
Irish has had it's day and the country has moved on - just as we are no longer ruled by the Church and the abuse that came with it for many people, and many other ideas that held this country back for so long.
It's time to accept it and if you wish to keep the language alive, by all means speak it at home, with friends, and teach it to your kids but stop trying to drag the country as a whole back to accomodate your unrealistic vision of a native-Irish speaking Ireland, because it just won't happen and if we are to survive as a country we need to start facing up to some harsh realities anyway.
Kaiser the particular serious of posts on that thread occured overnight when they were noticed the next morning a mod warning was put on the thread. The specific poster didn't make any other posts on that thread or in the infrastructure form.
Here's the official render that's on Youtube:
Regarding Education Ireland has one of the lowest spends on education per GDP in the OECD, I would be surprised if they spend 50% more on their primary education in the Netherlands then we. In comparison we spend twice as much on third level education then we do on primary which we can all agree is the building block of everyone education.
If Irish was removed from the syllabus and replaced without any changes in current education spend you can pretty much guarantee that most Irish people will continue to come out of education as English mono-linguals.
As for IT jobs after working 7 years in the IT business (having done a 4 year degree in it) the main issue in Ireland is not lack of language skills it's lack of Maths and Science skills. As well as lack of people doing Computer Science in university. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of jobs specifically in localisation and in Helpdesk/1st line support that require a foreign language (Outsourcing, call center jobs). However these are not the majority of IT jobs. Anything regarding ops/nets & comms/software engineering /programming doesn't necessary require a foreign language. Personally I've never been in a position where I couldn't apply for a job because even after 5 years of French I couldn't speak the language.
In general the issue in the IT industry is that people stop applying for IT courses in University, for several years the Bsc. IT in Galway only had 15 applicants per year even though there was 100 places in the course. (points dropped from 440 to 215 as a result) This became a major issue regarding people graduating from 2005 to 2008. As a result companies cannot find skilled staff with 2-5 years experience. Why was there such a drop off in people doing IT? Simple people applied to do courses that were connected with property development (architecture, quantity surveying, law etc.)
The company I work for has huge problems finding people with relevant experience mainly as the pool of skilled developers is so small in Ireland due to people deciding there wasn't "fast money" in IT in the early 2000's (after Y2k).0 -
You can't use automatic translation programmes. The language commissioner wouldn't allow it.
As for the signs, I had forgotten them. Each sign would be half the cost if Irish was not required. A big annual saving there.
Godge my post says noting about automatic translation programs. It talks about the process of translating software such as Microsoft Office and operating systems like Windows XP/7. Such software contains a file with headings like this:#: ../desktop-directories/Education.directory.in.h:1
msgid "Education"
msgstr "Oideachas"
#: ../desktop-directories/Game.directory.in.h:1
msgid "Games"
msgstr "Cluichí"
#: ../desktop-directories/Game.directory.in.h:2
msgid "Games and amusements"
msgstr "Cluichí agus siamsaíochtaí"
#: ../desktop-directories/Graphics.directory.in.h:1
msgid "Graphics"
msgstr "Grafaic"
#: ../desktop-directories/Graphics.directory.in.h:2
msgid "Graphics applications"
msgstr "Feidhmchláir grafaice"
#: ../desktop-directories/Hardware.directory.in.h:1
msgid "Hardware"
msgstr "Crua-Earraí"
The initial translation is done by hand, every string is translated. When the next release comes about 90% of the strings are unchanged so no new translation is required. Any new strings or strings that have had their content changed then need to be updated (by a human translator).
As for signs how would they be half price? Are they suddenly going to be half the size? The majority of the price of a sign has very little to do with the content on it. They aren't going to charge you twice the price for having two strings of text on it.0 -
You can't use automatic translation programmes. The language commissioner wouldn't allow it.
Are you talking about Google translate?
Thats what it sounds like. Who said anything about that?As for the signs, I had forgotten them. Each sign would be half the cost if Irish was not required. A big annual saving there.
LOL:D:D
Dear lord, have you anything to back up this claim?:rolleyes:0 -
Kaiser2000 wrote: »I was in utter astonishment to see the thread derailed by one particular poster who's "outrage" that these signs did not display the Irish names for places led him to not only lodge a compliaint....
in one of the cases he describes how his office gave Dublin City Council a hard time for not giving Irish equal prominence (in his opinion) on new signs, primarily intended for non Irish speaking foreign tourists.0 -
Godge my post says noting about automatic translation programs. It talks about the process of translating software such as Microsoft Office and operating systems like Windows XP/7. Such software contains a file with headings like this:.
By far the greatest expense would be from having to provide Irish speaking experts for customer services, for example when an Irish language enthusiast phones up or writes to discuss offshore exploration rights in Irish, or asylum law etc.
And why? Just how many people are there who speak only Irish?0 -
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Kaiser2000 wrote: »What's worse is that this complaint was apparently upheld, resulting in tax payer's money being spent to rewrite and test the software to accomodate this.
Very simple really, the NTA Broke the Law, a complaint was made and the NTA will have to fik their error.
Hopefully they will be more mindfull of legislation in future and the same mistake will not be repeated.Irish (as a practical everyday language) is DEAD. It's of no practical use outside this State and very limited use inside it. I've no objection to people speaking and educating their children in/through Irish at all, but this should be done by those individuals themselves at home, or through privately funded tuition, Irish language schools etc
Irish is not dead in any sense of the word.
It can as a matter of fact be used inside and outside the state.
Perhaps the same should apply to all education, Why should Tax Payers who want their kids to learn Irish in school be descriminated against?
Why whold they have to pay twice for their childs education?A much better idea would be to replace this time in classes (at Primary level) with say French or German - even Chinese would be of more value considering their rising economy!
This should (as it is now) be continued into Secondary level with extra languages brought on stream.. ideally every Irish child should finish Secondary school with English and fluency in at least 1 other primary European language.
This would almost certainly be open to a constutional challenge. I doubt very much there will ever be enough support fo anything like this being done.Irish has had it's day and the country has moved on - just as we are no longer ruled by the Church and the abuse that came with it for many people, and many other ideas that held this country back for so long.
Had its day
Irish is a growing language.It's time to accept it and if you wish to keep the language alive, by all means speak it at home, with friends, and teach it to your kids but stop trying to drag the country as a whole back to accomodate your unrealistic vision of a native-Irish speaking Ireland, because it just won't happen and if we are to survive as a country we need to start facing up to some harsh realities anyway.
Any evidence to show that Irish is holding this country back, any studies, reports, anything?
You may think it is, but can you support your opinion?
This may be of some interest to you. Contexts and Contests, The Irish Language and Ireland's Socio-Economic Development0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »The report of the Language Commissioner makes revealing reading. Not only does this quango cost €743,000 per year (while not yet at full staffing), but they're busy beating up on various departments not just to print reports in Irish to to have fluent Irish speakers available on the telephone when demanded by English- speaking Irish language enthusiasts and to translate computer systems and websites into Irish.
in one of the cases he describes how his office gave Dublin City Council a hard time for not giving Irish equal prominence (in his opinion) on new signs, primarily intended for non Irish speaking foreign tourists.
Nice to see that he is doing his job then.:)0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Nice to see that he is doing his job then.:)0
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In general the issue in the IT industry is that people stop applying for IT courses in University, for several years the Bsc. IT in Galway only had 15 applicants per year even though there was 100 places in the course. (points dropped from 440 to 215 as a result) This became a major issue regarding people graduating from 2005 to 2008. As a result companies cannot find skilled staff with 2-5 years experience. Why was there such a drop off in people doing IT? Simple people applied to do courses that were connected with property development (architecture, quantity surveying, law etc.)
Just a couple of quick points here about IT.
As many of us know from past experience, IT is a difficult area for recent graduates to break into. So it would actually be an advantage for students to have better foreign language skills so they could have a shot at doing the jobs that we import thousands of foreigners to do (that in itself a damning indictment of the Irish education system). I know people turn their noses up at call center and localization work, but it is does provide a route into the industry, or first step on the career ladder if you want to call it that.The company I work for has huge problems finding people with relevant experience mainly as the pool of skilled developers is so small in Ireland due to people deciding there wasn't "fast money" in IT in the early 2000's (after Y2k).0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »How many public- facing computer systems are based on Microsoft Office or XP? What is the daily rate for contract analysts, programmers and language specialists to make these changes? true, modifying the computer systems would probably be a one off expense but far more expensive than you say.
By far the greatest expense would be from having to provide Irish speaking experts for customer services, for example when an Irish language enthusiast phones up or writes to discuss offshore exploration rights in Irish, or asylum law etc.
And why? Just how many people are there who speak only Irish?
Think of it this way, to provide microsoft enterprise licensing for a company of 200 will cost them about €200,000 a year. This gives them fully licensed versions of Windows/Office/Forefront/Project/Viso/Exchange CAL's etc. (a fairly broad amount of microsoft client software). There are probably at least 200k client machines in the public service across all arms. Even if Microsoft give a discount that works out at €100million a year in licensing, if part of the tender agreement states software has to be available in Irish then Microsoft will translate it, they aren't going to loose part of a massive yearly contract for something like that (same reason they provide a Welsh translation).
The cost of the initial translation is amortised over the time of the contract. Lets say they have a product with 100,000 strings in it. They assign 8 full time translators to it as say a total cost of 300-400k. Then after delivering the translation they sign a licensing agreement for 1,000 Enterprise licenses for 3 years (with 50% discount). During lifetime of the contract they net €1,500,000 in licensing revenue. 2 years later they release their latest software, instead of a team of 8 they just have 2 guys spending half the time making sure that any additional strings are translated and doing QA. Rinse and then repeat etc.
This is part of reason why Microsoft translated Windows XP, they only did it because otherwise they would have been shut out of public service licensing. Regarding specialised apps, well like the above example it's part of the Tender, if you don't have a translated app you don't get the contract and the multi-year support/licensing. See the real money is not in the actual software it's in the support licensing.
I've seen projects where the initial software cost were about €1million but the support over 5 years work out as an additional €6million to the company. Stuff like translations etc are small fry heck you probably throw them in at a huge discount because the real money is in having the support contract.0 -
MysticalRain wrote: »there are millions of Indians with good English language skills who can do the job of an Irish developer far more cheaply.0
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Déise tbh I myself think that savings could be made in this area. Namely:
- All Translation should be in-house -- large amounts of cost goes to outsource translation companies -- this adds a premium
- Reduction of printing costs -- easily at least 25% of costs go on printing -- most documents do not need to be printed (E-Government?)
I agree, but I would cap expenditure at 1 million.
So that the complaints mechinism to An Comisinéir would be a system for creating greater value for money as improvments in services would have to be made by making existing services more efficient.0 -
Think of it this way, to provide microsoft enterprise licensing for a company of 200 will cost them about €200,000 a0
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deise go deo wrote: »An Comisinéir Teanga is an independant statuory body appointed by the President.
He is not obliged to work for cnaG0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »And he has never endorsed a CnaG activity nor accepted their hospitality, right?
What has that got to do with working for them or your so called 'Main Aim'?0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »What has that got to do with working for them or your so called 'Main Aim'?0
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »That's an evasive answer. Have I touched upon a subject you'd rather was kept out of the public view?
It was not an answer, it was a question, one you have yet to answer, quite evasive yourself, no?
I have no interest in what is or is not in public view.
If you have a claim to make, make it. I don't see the need for all this beating about the bush.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »in one of the cases he describes how his office gave Dublin City Council a hard time for not giving Irish equal prominence (in his opinion) on new signs, primarily intended for non Irish speaking foreign tourists.
Have you any idea how much most tourists actually appreciate that? How that extra individuality can influence peoples decision to travel to this country? Have you any idea how Europeans view the issue of Irish in Ireland?
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but to everyone in this thread there is no point in saying that too much money is spent on Irish/Irish speakers are afforded too many privileges etc. unless you are actually prepared to address the question of the constitutional status of the language.
It's an absolute waste of space (I'm almost finished with this thread the argument is so dull) giving out about Irish while it is conferred with priority status within the Irish constitution (in the case of a dispute, the Irish version of the constitution and laws takes precedence over the English version) - under the present regime it is 100% entitled to every support it receives and you can't hope to strip those supports down without changing its constitutional status.0 -
Completely agree with faobhar here.This thread has descended into the ridiculous at this stage. Virtually all measured debate has disappeared and we're reduced to tit for tat requests for sources and figures.We'll be here until rapture.Oíche mhaith, it's been fun....0
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Have you any idea how much most tourists actually appreciate that? How that extra individuality can influence peoples decision to travel to this country? Have you any idea how Europeans view the issue of Irish in Ireland?Sorry to sound like a broken record, but to everyone in this thread there is no point in saying that too much money is spent on Irish/Irish speakers are afforded too many privileges etc. unless you are actually prepared to address the question of the constitutional status of the language.0
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deise go deo wrote: »I agree, but I would cap expenditure at 1 million.deise go deo wrote: »So that the complaints mechinism to An Comisinéir would be a system for creating greater value for money as improvments in services would have to be made by making existing services more efficient.0
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »The signs did contain Irish, the Language Commissioner did not like the colour of the lettering.
What signs? Source?No one ever thought that the Catholic Church would ever be removed from the constitution. Reform can happen. The government has to balance the rights given to Irish language enthusiasts against the obligation to manage state resources wisely for the greater good.
You don't think that is the case as it is now?
I suppose you mean by balancing the Rights of Irish speakers, you really mean deny them their language rights?0 -
deise go deo wrote: »What signs? Source?deise go deo wrote: »I suppose you mean by balancing the Rights of Irish speakers, you really mean deny them their language rights?0
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »The signs did contain Irish, the Language Commissioner did not like the colour of the lettering.
Quite right cyclopath, but what that meant was that the Irish wasn't sufficiently visible as is clearly set down in legislation. Maybe, rather than giving out about the Coimisinéir Teanga, it might be worth taking it up with the Council officials who don't seem to be able to follow very clear regulations. Had the work been carried out correctly in the first place there'd be no extra cost. The reason the Coimisinéir is currently costing so much money is because he apparently has no shortage of public service ineptitude to identify and to deal with.cyclopath2001 wrote: »No one ever thought that the Catholic Church would ever be removed from the constitution. Reform can happen. The government has to balance the rights given to Irish language enthusiasts against the obligation to manage state resources wisely for the greater good.
I have no doubt that reform can happen - so tell me exactly what kind of reform you want?0 -
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »Pedestrian signs in Dublin, mentioned in the Report of the Language Commissioner 2010, which also stated that just 18% of complaints about non-compliance came from people living in Gaeltacht areas. You might remember that you wrongly claimed that this constituted a 'majority'?
Where these signs erected since 2009?They have to speak English when dealing with private sector companies, that's not a denial of rights. I think you confuse rights and privileges.
They are laid down as rights in the legislation, not privileges.;)0
This discussion has been closed.
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