Is Irish a dead language?

dubhthach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This software is used for general purpose word processing and spreadsheeting, it's not used for business apps nor for public facing. The main thrust of the OLA is to force Irish into public facing services, regardless of need or cost. These are usually bespoke applications. Quite expensive to change, but maybe we can reduce costs by using Indian coders?

That's not my point, any IT procurement goes through a Tender process. I gave the example of Microsoft as they have tendered for governmental contracts in the past (most client machines would be microsoft in public service) plus it's a fairly easy one to explain as it covers off the shelf software.

If for example a Large department decides it needs a new Payroll system it will have a public tender for which companies will bid for the contract. As part of that process the front-end to the product (be it web/client app) will require to be bilingual. Companies aren't going to put in offers of twice the price because it's bilingual, actually the user interface is probably one of the smallest costs of the project (backend hardware/software/3rd party licensing -- Oracle for example). Also the real money is not in the initial writing the "bespoke" (or semi-bespoke in most cases) software, it's in getting the 10 year support contract where you have to provide all the bugfixes, updates, software support.

So an example where the fixed cost tender comes to €10million all in (software and hardware) for a Payroll system might then have a 5-10% support cost per year which covers everything including having to bring engineers on site. In case of 10% that's adds up to guaranteed billings of €1million a year to the company developing the system.

As for websites tbh it's best practise to build websites from the get go with builtin multi-lingual support. TBH it's fairly easy to implement with any proper CMS (content management system). Once a site is built to support two languages it's trivia to add additional languages, you just need to carry out the translation of the content. In which case you could easily provide the site in Polish, German, Chinese etc. Very handy in particular for embassies and Departments of Foreign Affairs/Taoiseach etc.

cyclopath2001

dubhthach wrote: »

you just need to carry out the translation of the content. In which case you could easily provide the site in Polish, German, Chinese etc. Very handy in particular for embassies and Departments of Foreign Affairs/Taoiseach etc.

As you say, there is an additional cost in retrofitting dual language capability to existing software.

Websites can contain thousands of documents, each many pages in length, how much does cost to have a certified accurate Irish translation of one page of A4 legalise?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote:

They are laid down as rights in the legislation, not privileges.;)

They are not constitutional rights.Let's say, God forbid, you get hit by a car and end up in A&E in a public hospital, with serious injuries, which, I hope will never happen to you: Will you be insisting on being dealt with through Irish? Or, perhaps suffer the attention of English speaking medical staff and then complain to the Language Commissioner ( as is your right) later?

This dilemma illustrates the conflict between your legally endowed rights and the real world.

Grudaire

An bhfuil sibh fós anseo! I would have at least expected some new arguments from either side! I think 'peace' walls are the only solution :pac:

Anyway when I saw this on YLYL I could only think of this thread:

http://unrforliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Our-Discussion.jpg

Godge

faobhar wrote: »

Quite right cyclopath, but what that meant was that the Irish wasn't sufficiently visible as is clearly set down in legislation. Maybe, rather than giving out about the Coimisinéir Teanga, it might be worth taking it up with the Council officials who don't seem to be able to follow very clear regulations. Had the work been carried out correctly in the first place there'd be no extra cost. The reason the Coimisinéir is currently costing so much money is because he apparently has no shortage of public service ineptitude to identify and to deal with.

There are two ways of looking at everything. In this case there are two correct ways of looking at it. Council officials don't seem able to follow regulations (don't agree about the clarity) but those regulations are excessively bureaucratic pandering to a small lobby group who want to restore the status of Irish.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

They are not constitutional rights.Let's say, God forbid, you get hit by a car and end up in A&E in a public hospital, with serious injuries, which, I hope will never happen to you: Will you be insisting on being dealt with through Irish? Or, perhaps suffer the attention of English speaking medical staff and then complain to the Language Commissioner ( as is your right) later?

This dilemma illustrates the conflict between your legally endowed rights and the real world.

So? What is your point? Does the fact that they are not constitutional rights make any difference?
What difference does it make and why?

I would like to point out that the Constution does provide for Irish services to be available to the public.

If there is no one able to deal with me through Irish I will of course use English, the question is, should I have to?

Should English be the only option? Or should there be choice?

Why should Irish speakers be forced to use English?

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

Why should Irish speakers be forced to use English?

Because they all understand English.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Why should Irish speakers be forced to use English?

Because it's too expensive to provide services in both.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because it's too expensive to provide services in both.

Is it? Across the board? Surely its a little more subjective than that. The people asking for these services are Tax payers.

Tell me, as a tax payer(or at least former tax payer) would you be happy to use a service in a language other than your language of choice?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Is it? Across the board? Surely its a little more subjective than that. The people asking for these services are Tax payers.

Tell me, as a tax payer(or at least former tax payer) would you be happy to use a service in a language other than your language of choice?

Yeah it is. I don't have figures but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that supplying government services in two language is more expensive then one.

Well as a fellow student deise I don't pay income tax but I do pay VAT. Not that it matters anyway because the goernment should aim to give the most inclusive service possible with the lowest cost possible. By that logic providing services in Irish is counter intuitive.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah it is. I don't have figures but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that supplying government services in two language is more expensive then one.

It is possible to provide a (Limited)service in two languages at no extra cost.

Would there be any reason not to do this?

Well as a fellow student deise I don't pay income tax but I do pay VAT. Not that it matters anyway because the goernment should aim to give the most inclusive service possible with the lowest cost possible. By that logic providing services in Irish is counter intuitive.

So Tax Paying citizens of this state have no right to expect to be able to deal with their Government through their Native Language? A Language native to that state which forms part of the culture of that states population.

In taking this stance, the state would not only be acting in a discriminatory way against a section of its own population, that would result in disruption as that section of the population protest about the discrimination they face, but would also be counter to the European Charter on Minority Languages.


In my own personal opinion, expenditure is justified to provide a service through both official languages on the basis of choice. People should be allowed to choose which of the states two official languages they want to use when dealing with the government they pay for.

gimme5minutes

deise go deo wrote: »

Is it? Across the board? Surely its a little more subjective than that. The people asking for these services are Tax payers.

Tell me, as a tax payer(or at least former tax payer) would you be happy to use a service in a language other than your language of choice?

Yes it is too expensive provide services in both. So what if you are a taxpayer. It doesnt mean your every whim has to be indulged. Why should millions of taxpayers money be spent on something that .1% of the people are actually looking for...and these people are able to get by 100% fine without it as they are 100% fluent in English anyway. It is a completely token gesture that the Irish language lobby expects the general public to fork out millions for.

The Irish lanaguage is technically an official language of Ireland. In practise no-one uses outside gaeltacht regions and even there they speak English alot of the time. In 35 years having lived all over the country, including 4 years living in Galway, I have never once had anyone try and have a conversation with me in Irish. So come off it with this official language nonsense, there are far more people using polish daily in this country than Irish for god sake.

It's a pity that we have such spineless politicians as it would save Ireland a fortune if Irish was removed from the constituation as the first official language of ireland. It's ridiculous because go into any shop or any pub in any town in Ireland and it is plain as day that English is the language we use in Ireland. The gaelgofacists have been using this outdated constitutional statement as a stick to beat the rest of us with for decades and have sucked millions out of the taxpayers to pay for completely practically pointless token gestures, not to mention wasting thousands of man hours for each student forced to spend time study this language that is not even used. Have we not got any politicians who would be willing to call a spade a spade and propose this amendment to the constitution? We got the Catholic Church out of it in 1972, it's about time we got the gaelgofacists out.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I would like to point out that the Constution does provide for Irish services to be available to the public.

But not in the way you think:

Article 8....Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

Clearly, it was foreseen that not all services needed to be available in Irish.

deise go deo wrote: »

Should English be the only option? Or should there be choice?

deise go deo wrote: »

In my own personal opinion, expenditure is justified to provide a service through both official languages on the basis of choice.

deise go deo wrote: »

Tell me, as a tax payer(or at least former tax payer) would you be happy to use a service in a language other than your language of choice?

But when it comes to education of English speakers, you're against choice?

As a taxpayer, I would be happy knowing that services are being provided without unnecessary additional cost.

gimme5minutes

I forgot to reply to this post you made earlier after I questioned you about forcing students to learn Irish

gimme5minutes wrote:

I'll ask deise go deo this question again -

Answer me this. Say I am a LC student. I hate Irish and have always been useless at it. I would like to drop it and do applied maths instead which I am good at and foresee myself using in my future career. Why in the name of god should I be forced to do Irish in this situation? What do you think I should be forced to do Irish instead of Applied Maths?

deise go deo wrote: »

I would ask you two questions, Why do you hate Irish, and why the hell are you studying it?

You don't have to study it, there is nothing the school can do to make you study it, stop studying it, either that or just drop to foundation, which is basically the same thing.

Any more questions?

So basically you are again saying Irish is not really compulsory. Well then why have you spent dozens of pages arguing for Irish to remain compulsory if it doesn't make a difference anyway? Also, if Irish was no longer compulsory in schools it would no longer be compulsory in Universities. As it stands students who have no interest in it are forced to do it so they can do their chosen university course. And bar you fabricate some excuse that makes you exempt from it, the school is not just gonna let you drop it and say nothing about it. Parents will be called in and you will most likely be looking at an indefinite suspension for breaking the rules of the school and the department of education. You can also forget about getting any references from the principal.

So as students are being forced to do it maybe you could now give me a real reason for 'Why do you think I should be forced to do Irish instead of Applied Maths?'

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But not in the way you think:

Clearly, it was foreseen that not all services needed to be available in Irish.

I am well aware of that article, but clearly from reading it, Irish speakers can expect some level of service provision as Gaeilge.

But when it comes to education of English speakers, you're against choice?

As a taxpayer, I would be happy knowing that services are being provided without unnecessary additional cost.

I would be as much in favor of English being compulsory in Gaelscoils and in the Gaeltacht, so you can drop the 'when it comes to English speakers' bit

There is very little choice in schools, even for optional subjects, of the 4 you can choose to do, you are lucky to get two of the four you wanted.

Choice is not necessary to achieve a good education, teaching methods, teaching materials, the relationship between the student and teacher are far far more important.



In life after school, choice is important. People should not be forced to use Irish in their daily lives, and by the same token, they should not be forced to use English.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I am well aware of that article, but clearly from reading it, Irish speakers can expect some level of service provision as Gaeilge.

Where a person speaks only Irish and not English, this is understandable and is probably what was originally intended.

deise go deo wrote: »

In life after school, choice is important. People should not be forced to use Irish in their daily lives, and by the same token,

And to decide what languages their children will learn?

deise go deo wrote: »

They should not be forced to use English.

Supporting the choice not to speak English, when one is fluent in it, is a different matter to supporting the rights of people who speak only Irish and who would be otherwise disadvantaged by being unable to access services not available in Irish. On one case, it is a lifestyle preference, in the other a genuine basic need.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Where a person speaks only Irish and not English, this is understandable and is probably what was originally intended.

I think the intention was to cater for the increased use of Irish by the public, in that not much has changed except perhaps more recently the Government has put the necessary legislation in place to actually do it rather than just talk about it.

And to decide what languages their children will learn?

If a parent wants their child to learn Japanese(For Example) there is nothing to stop them teaching their child, complaining about Irish in schools certainly wont help their child learning a language, (It will do the opposite in fact)

Supporting the choice not to speak English, when one is fluent in it, is a different matter to supporting the rights of people who speak only Irish and who would be otherwise disadvantaged by being unable to access services not available in Irish. On one case, it is a lifestyle preference, in the other a genuine basic need.

So the government should make the decision for its citizens of what kind of life they should be allowed to lead?

Do you honestly believe that there are no people for whom Irish is the Language they are most comfortable with using?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

It is possible to provide a (Limited)service in two languages at no extra cost.

Would there be any reason not to do this?

That's not true, providing even limited services in two languages requires staff competently educated in the chosen minority language. And because the numbers of these staff are in fewer numbers by the principals of supply and demand they can demand a higher wage. Increasing the cost of providing the service.

deise go deo wrote: »

So Tax Paying citizens of this state have no right to expect to be able to deal with their Government through their Native Language? A Language native to that state which forms part of the culture of that states population.

In taking this stance, the state would not only be acting in a discriminatory way against a section of its own population, that would result in disruption as that section of the population protest about the discrimination they face, but would also be counter to the European Charter on Minority Languages.


In my own personal opinion, expenditure is justified to provide a service through both official languages on the basis of choice. People should be allowed to choose which of the states two official languages they want to use when dealing with the government they pay for.

No, tax paying citizens who speak both a minority language aswell as english have no right to demand the state deal with them in their language. It's simply not feasible to provide every state service in every minority language in the world. Realistically we have to draw the line somewhere and practically the best place to do that is after english.

Irish being native to the state makes no difference since it isn't the state dealing with the state, it's citizens. And the language of the people of the state is english. And maybe polish as a distant second.

There's no legal justification for the demands of gealgeoirs as can be seen in the constitution:

Article 8.3 wrote:

Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

, complaining about Irish in schools certainly wont help their child learning a language, (It will do the opposite in fact)

Can you explain, what do you mean?

deise go deo wrote: »

So the government should make the decision for its citizens of what kind of life they should be allowed to lead?

then you must see that imposing Irish on children against their wishes and those of their parents is wrong.

deise go deo wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that there are no people for whom Irish is the Language they are most comfortable with using?

Define 'comfortable'. When it comes to rights, preference and comfort are weak concepts. You would need to demonstrate that someone was denied a right to a service because they could only speak Irish and could not speak English.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's not true, providing even limited services in two languages requires staff competently educated in the chosen minority language. And because the numbers of these staff are in fewer numbers by the principals of supply and demand they can demand a higher wage. Increasing the cost of providing the service.

In this economic climate? Your having a laugh. No one is in a position to demand higher wages.

And even so, the civil service is benchmarked, There is set wages for each grade, people do not get the chance to demand higher wages unless it is through their trade unions.

Now, as I said, it is possible for services to be provided in Both languages at no extra cost, but that is beside the point, I believe that expenditure is justified in providing people with the choice of which of our two official languages they wish to use when dealing with their government.

No, tax paying citizens who speak both a minority language aswell as english have no right to demand the state deal with them in their language. It's simply not feasible to provide every state service in every minority language in the world. Realistically we have to draw the line somewhere and practically the best place to do that is after english.

Who said anything about it being feasible to provide a service in every minority language in the world? Strawman argument:rolleyes:

I am talking about services being provided in both of our official languages.

Irish being native to the state makes no difference since it isn't the state dealing with the state, it's citizens. And the language of the people of the state is english. And maybe polish as a distant second.

The language of some of the people of this state is Irish, and you would do well to remember that. Irish is an official language of this state, and as such Irish citizens have a right to expect to deal with their government through Irish if they so wish. They pay taxes just the same as English Speakers, so why should they be treated less favorably?

As for your claim that Polish is the second most widely spoken Language in the State. Have you a source for that?

There's no legal justification for the demands of gealgeoirs as can be seen in the constitution:

Legal Justification? Have you never heard of the Official languages Act?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

In this economic climate? ........ I believe that expenditure is justified in providing people with the choice of which of our two official languages they wish to use ...I am talking about services being provided in both of our official languages

Ok then, public hospitals: how much will it cost to ensure that patients with an Irish language preference do not suffer from having to speak English to any staff member?

gimme5minutes

deise go deo wrote: »

Now, as I said, it is possible for services to be provided in Both languages at no extra cost

Oh because you said it is is true? Is that the way it works here...when anyone else posts anything you don't hesitate to demand evidence to back up what they are saying...but as for yourself, once you say something it automatically seems to become fact.

Although you are plainly wrong on this fact and it shows how ridiculous your position is when you will come out with a statement like that. Common sense would tell any rational person that it is going to cost extra money for a state to provide services in two languages. But as that seems to be missing in this case here is Michael Ring stating that €1.8 million was spent on translating state documents into English alone - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8365573.stm

And in this discussion here we are talking about the cost of the state providing all services in Irish not just translating state documents so the overall cost would be higher than that.

but that is beside the point, I believe that expenditure is justified in providing people with the choice of which of our two official languages they wish to use when dealing with their government.

Who said anything about it being feasible to provide a service in every minority language in the world? Strawman argument:rolleyes:

I am talking about services being provided in both of our official languages.

The language of some of the people of this state is Irish, and you would do well to remember that. Irish is an official language of this state, and as such Irish citizens have a right to expect to deal with their government through Irish if they so wish. They pay taxes just the same as English Speakers, so why should they be treated less favorably?

Here we go again, getting beat over the head with this woefully outdated constitutional reference to Irish. Here's what I have to say on that - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71375130&postcount=3704

As for your claim that Polish is the second most widely spoken Language in the State. Have you a source for that?

63,090 is the number of poles who filled out the census in 2006. It is thought that the actual figure could be as high as 200,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_diaspora#Ireland

There is also a TCD report on polish immigration to ireland here - http://www.tcd.ie/sociology/news/assets/Polonia%20in%20Dublin%20Report%20I%5B1%5D.pdf

which states -
"In 2004, 27,295 Polish nationals applied for one, 64,731 in 2005, 93,787 in 2006, 79,816 in 2007 and 42,553 in 2008. In 2009, 13,794 PPS numbers were issued to Polish nationals and between January and September 2010 further 6,983 (Department of Social Protection). PPS numbers are required to work, and for some other purposes, but they do not represent all immigrants. They remain valid so that a return migrant would not have to reapply for one."

"The Polish Embassy in Dublin estimates that around 100,000 Poles live in Dublin, which is roughly half of the current Polish population in the country."

Every one of these people uses polish to speak to one another every single day (which is more than can be said for the people in the gaeltach when it comes to Irish). Polish is clearly used far far more in Ireland than Irish.


Oh and you still haven't given me a proper answer for the question I've asked twice already so here it is again as this is the crux of the eduction issue.

gimme5minutes wrote:

Say I am a LC student. I hate Irish and have always been useless at it. I would like to do drop it and do applied maths instead which I am good at and foresee myself using in my future career. Why in the name of god should I be forced to do Irish in this situation?

I have also just read that FG have rowed back on their commitment to remove Irish as a compulsory language for the LC and I will now not be giving them a vote in the next elections. I am very disappointed that they have caved into the vested interests costing this country a fortune, just as FF have always done.

Milk & Honey

deise go deo wrote: »

If there is no one able to deal with me through Irish I will of course use English, the question is, should I have to?

Should English be the only option? Or should there be choice?

Why should Irish speakers be forced to use English?

The only way you will get a service in Irish is

A. The state authority decides of it's own volition to provide it. or
b. The state authority is forced to provide it.

A rarely happens with the exception of those bodies who have a role in promoting Irish.

B is supposed to happen but doesn't due to political inertia and indifference.

The vast majority of the public do not appear to do much to force the politicians to move. Quite a number think they have moved too much!

That is why Irish is a dead language or at least is terminally ill. It cannot be used in the vast majority of business transactions in the state or interactions with state bodies. Those who insist on using it are generally seen as cranks.

faobhar

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, tax paying citizens who speak both a minority language aswell as english have no right to demand the state deal with them in their language. It's simply not feasible to provide every state service in every minority language in the world.

It's not always feasible, but it's often profitable. There's a whole generation of people in northeast Spain who can't read or write Catalan grace á Franco yet nowadays 75% of people can speak it, and half the population can read and write it. How did they go about this? Making Catalan compulsory in the education system (and they went further, making immersion and part-immersion key to education in the region), reasserting its role in public administration and requiring all the signage etc. be available bilingually with preference to Catalan, not Spanish, not English. Was everyone in Catalunya happy about this? Absolutely not, there was major dispute. What has been the result of all this? Catalunya, with Barcelona as its capital, is recognised as the most culturally distinctive region in Spain and is today probably the most wealthy area in the country. A lot of the credit certainly has to go to Gaudí, Dalí, etc., but it is also widely recognised that developing their native tongue has played no small part in this too.

Yes it's not an identical situation to Ireland, Catalan did start out post-Franco with a higher number of native speakers, but it's an interesting illustration of what can happen.

By the way, I'm still waiting for someone to clarify exactly how they'd like to see the status of Irish reconfigured in the Irish constitution.

faobhar

Godge wrote: »

There are two ways of looking at everything. In this case there are two correct ways of looking at it. Council officials don't seem able to follow regulations (don't agree about the clarity) but those regulations are excessively bureaucratic pandering to a small lobby group who want to restore the status of Irish.

Excessively bureaucratic? To fulfill a simple requirement that the lettering on signage be of a sufficiently visible size?

Anyway, this is clearly symptomatic of wider problem, not just related to Irish:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0302/1224291142706.html

cyclopath2001

faobhar wrote: »

By the way, I'm still waiting for someone to clarify exactly how they'd like to see the status of Irish reconfigured in the Irish constitution.

English as the national language (thereby acknowledging reality) and Irish given a dignified role for ceremonial purposes. It's time to ditch the Main Aim and get real.

RandomName2

Just adding this to the fray:

anybody notice the complaints against Dublin bus for their introduction of real-time updated bus timetables in the city?

Patently illegal of course as they are just in English.

Wonder if they will all have to be ripped up and abandoned? There simply isn't the space on the screens for bilingual display.

cyclopath2001

RandomName2 wrote: »

anybody notice the complaints against Dublin bus for their introduction of real-time updated bus timetables in the city?

It's been mentioned. I guess the software will haved to be changed so that they alternate bewteen the English place names understood my everone and the generally incomprehensible Irish ones in case there's an agent from the Irish Language Enforcement Office standing there with a vernier measure (to check letter size), light meter (to measure brighness) and stopwatch (to make sure the Irish version is displayed for as long as the English one).

82% of all complaints about non compliance with the Mandatory Irish Language Enforcement laws come from people who do not live in Gaeltacht areas. 41% are from Dublin.

So, the next time you wait for the Irish messages to go away and for the English ones to be shown, just remember that it's all part of the struggle for the Main Aim.

faobhar

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

English as the national language (thereby acknowledging reality) and Irish given a dignified role for ceremonial purposes. It's time to ditch the Main Aim and get real.

At that rate I'd be up for ditching Irish all together, really don't like the tokenism of "Dia dhaoibh a dhaoine uaisle, and now for the actual speech in English" but anyway different strokes and all that.

Glad to actually hear someone directly state an opinion on this. Would also love to see it being put in front of the people in a referendum.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Wonder if they will all have to be ripped up and abandoned? There simply isn't the space on the screens for bilingual display.

I take your point but space really isn't a problem, scores of countries deal with this just fine.

(I have no real love for Conradh na Gaeilge but the Main Aim thing's gettin a little bit old cyclopath! )

dubhthach

RandomName2 wrote: »

Just adding this to the fray:

anybody notice the complaints against Dublin bus for their introduction of real-time updated bus timetables in the city?

Patently illegal of course as they are just in English.

Wonder if they will all have to be ripped up and abandoned? There simply isn't the space on the screens for bilingual display.

It will alternate, you can view the official render here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O73QKzxmUWs