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Is Irish a dead language?
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I'd say yes, but as there isn't a direct translation for the word 'yes' in the Irish language, I'll have to resort to nil fhois agam.0
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It will alternate, you can view the official render here:
Ah, so instead of 100% of society being able to read them all the time, 0.2% will now be able to read them half the time. (before someone corrects my figures, I'm being facetious, yes, the 0.2% is being generous).0 -
Ah, so instead of 100% of society being able to read them all the time, 0.2% will now be able to read them half the time. (before someone corrects my figures, I'm being facetious, yes, the 0.2% is being generous).
Well take it up with your TD's you should have at least 3 government TD's in your constituency (Seanchill is under Dún Laoghaire right?). If that fails perhaps you should run a campaign to get the OLA repeal.
To be facetious 0.2% of Dublin's population is 2,279 (going off the Census 2006). In reality the number of daily Irish speakers in Dublin is recorded as 14,841 (same document), of course if you include the weekly speakers that jumps by a further 24,971. (another 100k+ use the language in education system daily) Who would have thought that there are almost as many daily speakers of Irish in Dublin as there are in Cois Fharriage eh?0 -
gimme5minutes wrote: »Oh because you said it is is true? Is that the way it works here...when anyone else posts anything you don't hesitate to demand evidence to back up what they are saying...but as for yourself, once you say something it automatically seems to become fact.
Perhaps if you took the time to read the argument I made, rather than going straight into makeing a strawman counter argument you would see that the statment I made is correct.
Just to refresh your memory.it is possible for services to be provided in Both languages at no extra cost
Did I say all services? No
Did I mention a particular service like Translating? No.
I said it is possible for services to be provided at no extra cost.
The Tax Office(For example) hires someone to work at reception.
In case one they Hire a monolingual English speaker. That person is paid 24000 per year(For example) They can deal with customers through One Language and one language only. English.
The Same Office hires someone to do the same Job that has Both Irish and English. That person can deal with customers through Two Languages, Irish and English. That person gets paid the same as the other person, because it is the same job. No time is wasted and it costs the exact same but they can deal with customers through Both Languages.
Do you get it now?Here we go again, getting beat over the head with this woefully outdated constitutional reference to Irish. Here's what I have to say on that - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71375130&postcount=3704Yes it is too expensive provide services in both. So what if you are a taxpayer. It doesnt mean your every whim has to be indulged. Why should millions of taxpayers money be spent on something that .1% of the people are actually looking for...and these people are able to get by 100% fine without it as they are 100% fluent in English anyway. It is a completely token gesture that the Irish language lobby expects the general public to fork out millions for.
You realise that people who use Irish is somewhere between 3 and 5% of the population (The High estimate of people who can use Irish goes up to 9%). Not your made up .1%The Irish lanaguage is technically an official language of Ireland. In practise no-one uses outside gaeltacht regions and even there they speak English alot of the time. In 35 years having lived all over the country, including 4 years living in Galway, I have never once had anyone try and have a conversation with me in Irish. So come off it with this official language nonsense, there are far more people using polish daily in this country than Irish for god sake.
No, Irish is an Official language of Ireland. And in practice tens of thousands of people use Irish outside the ghaeltachtí every day.
As for your anecdotal evidence, what dose that prove? Irish Speakers have always been very accommodating of Monolingual English speakers, To the extent that some have gotten it into their head that they have a right to expect it.It's a pity that we have such spineless politicians as it would save Ireland a fortune if Irish was removed from the constituation as the first official language of Ireland.
Remove it? You would need to get a referendum passed for that to happen.It's ridiculous because go into any shop or any pub in any town in Ireland and it is plain as day that English is the language we use in Ireland. The gaelgofacists have been using this outdated constitutional statement as a stick to beat the rest of us with for decades and have sucked millions out of the taxpayers to pay for completely practically pointless token gestures, not to mention wasting thousands of man hours for each student forced to spend time study this language that is not even used. Have we not got any politicians who would be willing to call a spade a spade and propose this amendment to the constitution? We got the Catholic Church out of it in 1972, it's about time we got the gaelgofacists out.
Go ahead, what are you on here complaining about it for? That will do nothing. You want change do something about it your self. Start a petition, show the polititions the support there is for your change.
The hard question is, is there really any support for such a change? Do you think there is.
As for a referendum on the Issue, Do you think one could be passed? Ask your self, who would even lead the Yes campaign?
As for the question about education, I am waiting for Teamshadowclan to get back to me about what a school actually can do if a student refuses to study Irish, Till then I will wait to give a full answer to the question.
Besides that however, There is still the question you failed to answer. Why do you hate Irish.
And you never gave a response to dropping to Foundation.I have also just read that FG have rowed back on their commitment to remove Irish as a compulsory language for the LC and I will now not be giving them a vote in the next elections. I am very disappointed that they have caved into the vested interests costing this country a fortune, just as FF have always done.
Did you not read their manifesto? They never committed them selves to anything more than they are doing now.0 -
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Glad to actually hear someone directly state an opinion on this. Would also love to see it being put in front of the people in a referendum.
Faobhar, Can I ask what your position on the issue is?
For what its worth, I am happy with how the position of Irish is set out in the Constitution now.
Though I would welcome a referendum as I believe that it would show a large majority in favor of the status quo and finally put the issue to rest.0 -
Which services, then?deise go deo wrote: »Did I say all services? No
Are you proposing making Irish a requirement for all public service jobs or discriminating in favour of Irish speakers when selecting successful candidates?deise go deo wrote: »The Same Office hires someone to do the same Job that has Both Irish and English. That person can deal with customers through Two Languages, Irish and English. That person gets paid the same as the other person, because it is the same job. No time is wasted and it costs the exact same but they can deal with customers through Both Languages.
The student would suffer disciplinery action and other difficulties as hinted at by you in your hypothetical Japenese language example.deise go deo wrote: »As for the question about education, I am waiting for Teamshadowclan to get back to me about what a school actually can do if a student refuses to study Irish,0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Just to refresh your memory.
Did I say all services? No
Did I mention a particular service like Translating? No.
I said it is possible for services to be provided at no extra cost.
The Tax Office(For example) hires someone to work at reception.
In case one they Hire a monolingual English speaker. That person is paid 24000 per year(For example) They can deal with customers through One Language and one language only. English.
The Same Office hires someone to do the same Job that has Both Irish and English. That person can deal with customers through Two Languages, Irish and English. That person gets paid the same as the other person, because it is the same job. No time is wasted and it costs the exact same but they can deal with customers through Both Languages.
Do you get it now?
The discussion on cost of services in Irish arose after cyclopath gave an example of a person being in A&E and demanding to be dealt with in Irish and in your reply to him you said
'If there is no one able to deal with me through Irish I will of course use English, the question is, should I have to?
Should English be the only option? Or should there be choice?
Why should Irish speakers be forced to use English? '
As you were going as far as to say that even emergency medical services should be provided in Irish I took it to mean that when you talk about services you were now talking about all state provided services.
Eh I didn't mean .1% literally. Anyway I cant see how it is possible for it to anywhere near 3%. There are not 120000-200000 people using Irish daily in this country lol (obviously not including schools). You must have got confused with the number using polish. You are not fooling anyone with figures like those. Where did you pull that from, the census? The one where 90% put themselves down as catholics while the archbishop of dublin says that church attendance is down to about 2% these days...yeah 90% of this country are true catholics alright...just like 3-5% of them use Irish daily. Even if it was 3-5% tho, the point still stands, why should millions of taxpayers money be spent providing pointless token services to such a tiny minority when this minority can 100% understand English anyway? It's a disgraceful waste of money.You realise that people who use Irish is somewhere between 3 and 5% of the population (The High estimate of people who can use Irish goes up to 9%). Not your made up .1%
I think such a referendum would be passed once the cost to the taxpayer is laid bare for all to see. Highlight the fortune being wasted on token services and the countless man hours wasted forcing a dead language on students who are now slipping down the international standards table.The hard question is, is there really any support for such a change? Do you think there is.
As for a referendum on the Issue, Do you think one could be passed? Ask your self, who would even lead the Yes campaign?
This is ridiculous. This is the third time you have failed to answer the simple question of -As for the question about education, I am waiting for Teamshadowclan to get back to me about what a school actually can do if a student refuses to study Irish, Till then I will wait to give a full answer to the question.
'Say I am a LC student. I hate Irish and have always been useless at it. I would like to do drop it and do applied maths instead which I am good at and foresee myself using in my future career. Why in the name of god should I be forced to do Irish in this situation?'
Why will you not give a straight answer to this question that goes to the crux of the education issue? I have already told you what will happen if you refuse to do Irish without an offical exemption. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055958148&highlight=school&page=248
No student is able to drop Irish without an offical exemption when it will prevent them attending university, kill their chances of getting a reference from the school, and see them involved in a stressful spat with the school/dept. of education which could see them suspended indefinitely as they would be in direct breach of policy.
But that is besides the point as you are plainly trying to dodge answering the question. Have you not got any reasons that stand up on their own merit over why a hyptoethical student should be forced to study Irish, which they are useless at and hate, over Applied Maths, which they are interested and good at? Why does it matter what the consequences are of refusing to do Irish are, that is beside the point. As you have failed to supply a proper answer for the third time in a row it looks to me like you actually dont have an answer, which is not surprising, considering how ridiculuous it is to force LC students to study something they are uselsess at instead of something they are good at.
I didnt respond to those questions because you used them plainly to dodge the issue at hand. I put forward a hypotethical student who is being forced to do Irish instead of Applied Maths (as being forced to do Irish is something every student in this country suffers). And now you want me to answer questions on this hypotethical student's attitude...wtf...do you want me to tell you what this hypotethical student's favorite color is and what they like to have for breakfast too? I put forward the question in this manner as it makes the question more stark when looked at from the point of view of the student, as opposed to looking at it from a macro level which is what always seems to be done in these threads. And anyway if you want an answer on why the hypotethical student hates Irish it is because every student has subject has subjects the like/dislike and in this case the student happens to dislike Irish. Why not drop to foundation? Because then they will not be able to get into universities. The Irish language entry requirement do universities would not exist if it wasn't compulsory in second level education.Besides that however, There is still the question you failed to answer. Why do you hate Irish.
And you never gave a response to dropping to Foundation.
I read a document from Fine Gael stating they were making Irish optional for LC students. I saw Enda Kenny mention this when being interviewed. There have been threads on boards.ie and elsewhere on the net about fine gaels proposals to make Irish optional. I cant see how this cant be taken as FG rowing back on one of their pre-election promises.Did you not read their manifesto? They never committed them selves to anything more than they are doing now.0 -
gimme5minutes wrote: »The discussion on cost of services in Irish arose after cyclopath gave an example of a person being in A&E and demanding to be dealt with in Irish and in your reply to him you said
The point you quoted from me was taken from a reply I gave to Iwasfrozen. By using it as you did you took it out of context, thoug it is an understandable mistake.I think such a referendum would be passed once the cost to the taxpayer is laid bare for all to see. Highlight the fortune being wasted on token services and the countless man hours wasted forcing a dead language on students who are now slipping down the international standards table.
I highly doubt it, Again, who would even lead such a referendum campaign?
Of course if you honestly believe that such a referendum is needed and could be passed then feel free to do something about it.
I would suggest an online petition as a first step, they are relativly simple to set up. Tell you what, If you can beat the most recent Pro Irish one(around 19,500 in the space of 4 months.)
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?gaeilge
Ten you might be onto something.This is ridiculous. This is the third time you have failed to answer the simple question of -
I gave an answer, it was questioned and I am waiting for Teamshadowclan, who said he was going to ask someone who knows about this area, to come back with his reply. Teamshadowclan is as far as I know an English Teacher so I have no doubt he will be able to get a valid answer to the question, I am willing to accept his responce on this was valid, Until then I realy have nothing more to say on the issue.I read a document from Fine Gael stating they were making Irish optional for LC students. I saw Enda Kenny mention this when being interviewed. There have been threads on boards.ie and elsewhere on the net about fine gaels proposals to make Irish optional. I cant see how this cant be taken as FG rowing back on one of their pre-election promises.
You did not read their election manifesto very closly then. It said that they would make Irish optional only after a thorough review of the curriculum.
I emailed one of their election candidates about the issue, before the election and he said that Irish would not be made optional until the curriculum had been reformed and verifiable results had been seen. In his opinion Irish under FG's plan would not have been made optional for a generation or two.
Several newspapers did indeed run the story that FG were going to make Irish optional, implying that it would be an immiadiate thing once they got into government, but that is jurnalism in this country for you. More interested in the headline than accuracy.
The TD in question agreed with me that Enda should have come out and publically clarified FG's position on the issue because FG were loosing votes because of it.0 -
The current economic climate doesn't make any difference. If you want higher educated people (which you do) then you have to pay more for them because they are of fewer number and in more demand. And that's not even going into the cost it would require to pay off current non-Irish speaking staff.deise go deo wrote: »In this economic climate? Your having a laugh. No one is in a position to demand higher wages.
And even so, the civil service is benchmarked, There is set wages for each grade, people do not get the chance to demand higher wages unless it is through their trade unions.
Now, as I said, it is possible for services to be provided in Both languages at no extra cost, but that is beside the point, I believe that expenditure is justified in providing people with the choice of which of our two official languages they wish to use when dealing with their government.
There's no justifiable way the same service can be provided in two languages at the same price as one. Even to suggest such a thing is deceitful.
So you won't provide services in German? What about all the poor German taxpayers in the country who want to deal with the state in their native language? Or Spanish? Or Catalonian? The line has to be drawn some where deise, as you point out yourself it is not possible to provide services in every language in the world. But I don't see any logical reason why Irish should be held up as a holy grail compared to all the other minority languages in the country.deise go deo wrote: »Who said anything about it being feasible to provide a service in every minority language in the world? Strawman argument:rolleyes:
I am talking about services being provided in both of our official languages.
So? The language of some people of this state is Chinese it doesn't mean services should be provided through Chinese. Also Irish being an official language of the state makes no difference because the government is constitutionally allowed to use either one official language exclusively for any purpose.deise go deo wrote: »The language of some of the people of this state is Irish, and you would do well to remember that. Irish is an official language of this state, and as such Irish citizens have a right to expect to deal with their government through Irish if they so wish. They pay taxes just the same as English Speakers, so why should they be treated less favorably?
As for your claim that Polish is the second most widely spoken Language in the State. Have you a source for that?
Sure I have but the government could (if it wanted to) argue that the Official languages act is unconstitutional as it limits the rights granted to it through Article 8.3 of the constitution of Ireland.deise go deo wrote: »Legal Justification? Have you never heard of the Official languages Act?0 -
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »So you won't provide services in German? What about all the poor German taxpayers in the country who want to deal with the state in their native language? Or Spanish? Or Catalonian? The line has to be drawn some where deise, as you point out yourself it is not possible to provide services in every language in the world. But I don't see any logical reason why Irish should be held up as a holy grail compared to all the other minority languages in the country.
Ans = Irish nationalism0 -
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gimme5minutes wrote: »
Eh I didn't mean .1% literally. Anyway I cant see how it is possible for it to anywhere near 3%. There are not 120000-200000 people using Irish daily in this country lol (obviously not including schools). You must have got confused with the number using polish. You are not fooling anyone with figures like those. Where did you pull that from, the census? The one where 90% put themselves down as catholics while the archbishop of dublin says that church attendance is down to about 2% these days...yeah 90% of this country are true catholics alright...just like 3-5% of them use Irish daily.
The Census doesn't ask about religious observance just what religion your are. However it asks the following about Irish language:- Can you speak Irish - Yes or No (equivalent to religion question -- fairly meaningless by itself)
- Are you in the Education system?
- Do you speak Irish outside the Education system
- What is your usage of Irish language outside of Education system -- Daily, Weekly, Less Often, Never
As a result you can't just dismiss the census figures by stating well 90% say they are catholic in Census but Church only has 2% attendance, now if the Census asked on church attendance/religious participation you might have a case.
This is why the question about using Irish outside the Education system was added a couple censues ago (1996 I believe).
The total number of people who use Irish daily in non-education situations is recorded as 72,148 of this figure 18,677 are in the Education system (they speak Irish daily outside of Education as well as in it).
The number of Weekly speakers of Irish is down as: 102,861 of which 5,772 are in the Education system (they speak Irish on weekly basis outside of Education).
This gives a maximum population of regular speakers (usage during a week) of about 175k. Of course the problem with the "weekly" figure is it doesn't ask how often in week you might use Irish, a simplistic approach would be to assume that 1/7th of figure speak Irish on any given day in such a scenario: 102,861/7 = 14,696
This adds up to about 87k on a daily basis which is surprising close to figures we hear all the time. As I said it's based on simplistic notion that weekly speakers only use the language once every week, whereas some of them might be using it on 2,3 even 4 times a week.
Just to go back to the Census and the comparison with Catholicism, it reports that there are a total of 1,656,790 people in Ireland who claim to have some level of Irish. Of these:- 412,846 never use their Irish
- 581,574 use it "less often" (eg. less often then weekly)
- 453,207 use the language within the Education system only
The percentage of state population which claim some knowledge of Irish language has jumped from 19.3% in 1926 to 40.8%, as population has increased by about 50% since 1926 this actually hides the fact that the actual number of people who claim some knowledge of Irish has tripled (540,802 in 1926)0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Faobhar, Can I ask what your position on the issue is?
For what its worth, I am happy with how the position of Irish is set out in the Constitution now.
Though I would welcome a referendum as I believe that it would show a large majority in favor of the status quo and finally put the issue to rest.
If you want my opinion, Irish is just a language, it's not an end in itself. It is by its very nature a means, and for me it's a means of accessing cultural identity, of accessing an essential part of our psyche and our history, of knowing all those thoughts that have never and will never be thought in English.
Some people have been rather sinisterly equating a desire for services in Irish with nationalism. Nationalism is a dirty word in this county, for good reasons, but that is not say national identity is any less important today. The nation-state concept hasn't gone away you know, and current events in Europe are showing just how deep the lines are drawn. Ireland has always been an island nation, and we've always had a closer sense of community than the larger politcally-engineered European states. Language is just of one the ways in which that community manifests itself.
To me, those who wish to do away with Irish, which is a this very point in time still a highly viable language, and only needs a few pushes in the direction to vastly increase its speaking community (though this is unlikely to be in the Gaeltacht), those who wish to do away with it are showing symptoms of that same utilitarian attitude which has done an awful lot to devalue both our international standing and our national spirit over the past 15 years or so. They're seeing problems where there could be solutions and neglecting the unquantifiable, but very tangible, benefits of the evolution of tradition. And, by the way, anyone who does wish to pose a serious argument against the value of Irish to Irish society really ought to have a read of Finbarr Bradley & James Kennelly's economic text Capitalising on Culture, Competing on Difference.
However, before everything else I do value democracy, and I think it is the right of the whole people of Ireland to decide what the future of Irish should be. And I think it's time that public opinion was sought in a formal sense on this very question, so that we can at least have a mandate one way or the other.
All of this bickering about percentage figures and our David MacWilliams style hypothetical Joes is beyond inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Show me anything, anything at all that sets out what will be done if a student refuses to study Irish.
Show me a case of anything being done to a student that refuses to study Irish.
Irish is compulsory, that in its self dosent mean that the school can force someone who refuses to study Irish to study it.
Hypothetical situation.
Student point blank refuses to study Irish, School contacts parents and the parents side with the student.
What next? What can the school do to force the student to study Irish?deise go deo wrote: »I gave an answer, it was questioned and I am waiting for Teamshadowclan, who said he was going to ask someone who knows about this area, to come back with his reply. Teamshadowclan is as far as I know an English Teacher so I have no doubt he will be able to get a valid answer to the question, I am willing to accept his responce on this was valid, Until then I realy have nothing more to say on the issue.
I believe I can be of service here. my uncle was a secondary school principal and I have discussed this with him in the past. You are right in that the school cant force the student to study Irish. someone mentioned students being suspended for refusing to study Irish. Well my uncle told me that he had a few requests over the years from students who wanted to drop Irish for the leaving cert and he said that it never came to having to suspend anyone once he explained the situation to them.
He told them that they could what they liked as they were old enough to decide for themselves but he pointed out that while students could stop attending Irish classes and not turn up for their Irish leaving cert exam, unless they had received an official exemption from the dept. of ed. they would will still be officially registered as being Irish language students and they would be given 0% in the exam. So, yes they will not be able to get into the best universities in the country and they will have an F grade on their official leaving cert results. Once this was pointed out the students just got on with it.
He also said it is not a simple matter to an exemption. As any student in the country who wanted to drop it for leaving cert had being doing Irish since they started primary school and had done the junior cert irish exam they had no grounds for getting an official exemption. i cant remember the details on exemptions but Im sure they are available on the net.
I am kind of in the middle ground on the whole Irish language debate. I would love to be able to speak it much better and I agree that it should be used on signs, documents, etc. However I really dont understand the policy of compelling students who dislike it to study it. It hasn't worked over the last century and has turned alot of people off the language which is a shame as having our own language is something we should be proud of, it adds to our cultural identity. also the curriculum could really do with being overhauled, I have heard an awful lot of complaints about how bad that is.0 -
However, before everything else I do value democracy, and I think it is the right of the whole people of Ireland to decide what the future of Irish should be. And I think it's time that public opinion was sought in a formal sense on this very question, so that we can at least have a mandate one way or the other.
All of this bickering about percentage figures and our David MacWilliams style hypothetical Joes is beyond inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
Thats fine, but do you think that the figures are sufficently close to justify the cost af holding a referendum?
I honestly do not, I think there would be a massive turnout of those in favor of the language, and only a tiny amount of people opposed to it enough to actually go out and vote for such a change.
Now I would welcome someone from the Pro-change side to step up and put their money where their mouth is so to speak and actually campaign for a referendum.
I have suggested several times that an online petition would be a good starting place as if there is a large body in favor of this then it should be relativly straight forward to demonstrate it.(and it would be relativly cheep and simple to set up)
I would have no problem with being proven wrong, If there is a large body of people in favor of change then I would welcome a referendum, but until there is such a campaign for constutional reform, I think holding a referendum on the issue would be wastful.
Why hold a referendum that no one seems to want?0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Thats fine, but do you think that the figures are sufficently close to justify the cost af holding a referendum?
I honestly do not, I think there would be a massive turnout of those in favor of the language, and only a tiny amount of people opposed to it enough to actually go out and vote for such a change.
Now I would welcome someone from the Pro-change side to step up and put their money where their mouth is so to speak and actually campaign for a referendum.
I have suggested several times that an online petition would be a good starting place as if there is a large body in favor of this then it should be relativly straight forward to demonstrate it.(and it would be relativly cheep and simple to set up)
I would have no problem with being proven wrong, If there is a large body of people in favor of change then I would welcome a referendum, but until there is such a campaign for constutional reform, I think holding a referendum on the issue would be wastful.
Why hold a referendum that no one seems to want?
I take your points there, and I for one don't think there's a chance in hell that people would actually vote to remove Irish from the constitution, but I think a clear mandate would be good to end the bickering once and for all.0 -
I take your points there, and I for one don't think there's a chance in hell that people would actually vote to remove Irish from the constitution, but I think a clear mandate would be good to end the bickering once and for all.
No doubt a clear mandate would be nice, but its a catch 22 isent it, the only justifiable reason to hold a referendum on the issue is if there is a large enough group who want one, and if there is a large enough group then bang goes the clear mandate.
So I suppose we shall just have to struggle on without such a referendum secure in the knowledge that holding one would not even be justified because so few would vote against Irish.
That said, I would genuinely welcome an honest attempt so show support for such a referendum, at least then we will be able to see the extent of the active support for one(Or lack thereof):)0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Thats fine, but do you think that the figures are sufficently close to justify the cost af holding a referendum?
I honestly do not, I think there would be a massive turnout of those in favor of the language, and only a tiny amount of people opposed to it enough to actually go out and vote for such a change.
Now I would welcome someone from the Pro-change side to step up and put their money where their mouth is so to speak and actually campaign for a referendum.
I have suggested several times that an online petition would be a good starting place as if there is a large body in favor of this then it should be relativly straight forward to demonstrate it.(and it would be relativly cheep and simple to set up)
I would have no problem with being proven wrong, If there is a large body of people in favor of change then I would welcome a referendum, but until there is such a campaign for constutional reform, I think holding a referendum on the issue would be wastful.
Why hold a referendum that no one seems to want?
Why do we have elections if we could just have referendums on every subject?
Think about the following referendum questions and their answers:
Income tax to be reduced to 15% - YES
Old Age pension to be increased to €300 - YES
Free health care for everyone - YES
VAT to be reduced to 10% - YES
No property tax - YES
Free education at a school and college of your choosing - YES
Preserve the status of Irish - YES
Of course a referendum on all of those topics would deliver a YES vote. That is why we elect politicians to take the hard decisions. Just like divorce and abortion, it is unfortunate that a change in the status of Irish needs a referendum because the majority will vote on sentimentality (people should stay married, all babies should be cherished, Irish is a good thing) rather than on the reality of the cost to individuals and to society.0 -
Of course a referendum on all of those topics would deliver a YES vote. That is why we elect politicians to take the hard decisions. Just like divorce and abortion, it is unfortunate that a change in the status of Irish needs a referendum because the majority will vote on sentimentality (people should stay married, all babies should be cherished, Irish is a good thing) rather than on the reality of the cost to individuals and to society.
Surely that's a tiny bit condescending towards the citizens of Ireland? If people vote to keep Irish in its rightful position within the constitution, then surely their opinion should be respected. Similarly, if politicians are elected to represent their constituents, a majority of whom favour protecting the language, then surely the politician should act on the wishes of his/her constituents. If the majority are to be ignored then why bother holding elections and referenda at all?0 -
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Oasis_Dublin wrote: »Surely that's a tiny bit condescending towards the citizens of Ireland? If people vote to keep Irish in its rightful position within the constitution, then surely their opinion should be respected. Similarly, if politicians are elected to represent their constituents, a majority of whom favour protecting the language, then surely the politician should act on the wishes of his/her constituents. If the majority are to be ignored then why bother holding elections and referenda at all?
Is it not obvious? Godge knows that his opinion is in the minority, therefore the majority is stupid and he is right.;)0 -
and here was me thinking the people were sovereign, obviously they need a "paternal hand" guiding them as they can't be trusted to make non-sentimental decisions :rolleyes:
VAT, pensions, property tax, free education, free healthcare are not part of our constitution. The status of the Irish language is and as a result any changes can only be made by referendum. While we are it we might as well roll in a couple of other constitutional amendments such as:
* Reducing number of TD's to 100
* Implementing list system (along with single seat constituencies)
* Legalise abortion
* Legalise Gay marriage
* Abolish blasphemy and other limits on freedom of speech
* Remove the preamble
* Allow for politicians to be impeached
Heck perhaps we need a new constitution after all0 -
and here was me thinking the people were sovereign, obviously they need a "paternal hand" guiding them as they can't be trusted to make non-sentimental decisions :rolleyes:
VAT, pensions, property tax, free education, free healthcare are not part of our constitution. The status of the Irish language is and as a result any changes can only be made by referendum. While we are it we might as well roll in a couple of other constitutional amendments such as:
* Reducing number of TD's to 100 Populist. Somewhere closer to 130 is more reasonable
* Implementing list system (along with single seat constituencies) A Mixed system would be more preferable but it is probably not realistic in a country as small as Ireland. Similarly, systems which give the largest party extra seats and disproportionately punish smaller parties for having less votes are not the way to go.
* Legalise abortion Agreed.
* Legalise Gay marriage Outside of churches, agreed.
* Abolish blasphemy and other limits on freedom of speech Strongly agree
* Remove the preamble
* Allow for politicians to be impeached
Heck perhaps we need a new constitution after all
Years of case law destroyed, nah.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Is it not obvious? Godge knows that his opinion is in the minority, therefore the majority is stupid and he is right.;)
Ah, but of course!0 -
Guys, aren't we missing something here? Removing Irish from the constitution is not necessary to remove it as a compulsory subject, or to provide services entirely through english. The government could just employ the powers directed to it through article 8.3 of the current consitution which says:
Problem solved, no need for a referendum.Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Guys, aren't we missing something here? Removing Irish from the constitution is not necessary to remove it as a compulsory subject, or to provide services entirely through english. The government could just employ the powers directed to it through article 8.3 of the current consitution which says:
Problem solved, no need for a referendum.
Several problems with that though.
They would have no mandate to do such a thing.
I can't think of any party willing to shoot themselves in the foot politically like that.
It would just result in major disruption as people take to the streets to protest.0 -
People don't generally take to the streets to protest against somthing that doesn't really afftect them though. Sure if you remove Irish as a mandatory subject you will have various isolated protests by the same old lobby groups like we did the last time the issue was raised during the general election but these would soon die down and would be well out of the public mind by the next general election in 2016.deise go deo wrote: »Several problems with that though.
They would have no mandate to do such a thing.
I can't think of any party willing to shoot themselves in the foot politically like that.
It would just result in major disruption as people take to the streets to protest.
Same with reducing waste in the public service like the duplication of certain documents, which I can see many people applauding.0 -
Why do we have elections if we could just have referendums on every subject?
Think about the following referendum questions and their answers:
Income tax to be reduced to 15% - YES
Old Age pension to be increased to €300 - YES
Free health care for everyone - YES
VAT to be reduced to 10% - YES
No property tax - YES
Free education at a school and college of your choosing - YES
Preserve the status of Irish - YES
Of course a referendum on all of those topics would deliver a YES vote. That is why we elect politicians to take the hard decisions. Just like divorce and abortion, it is unfortunate that a change in the status of Irish needs a referendum because the majority will vote on sentimentality (people should stay married, all babies should be cherished, Irish is a good thing) rather than on the reality of the cost to individuals and to society.
All the things you have listed there bar Irish (and also possibly free education and property tax, which sit in a sort of middle ground) are technical decisions which are not in themselves major constitutional articles. Your legal argument there is pretty unsound.
The last paragraph of that post espouses a view on democracy that I reckon would warm Muammar Gaddafi's heart.
Iwasfrozen makes the most reasonable statement above, but can I ask you, in light of the fact that Fine Gael and Labour have agreed a position on the status of Irish immediately following a general election, has democracy not spoken and do we not now have a clear mandate for the life of this government that Irish is to remain compulsory post-JC?0 -
Not exactly, electing politicians to make unpopular decisions for the benifit of the nation is a cornerstone of modern representative democracy.All the things you have listed there bar Irish (and also possibly free education and property tax, which sit in a sort of middle ground) are technical decisions which are not in themselves major constitutional articles. Your legal argument there is pretty unsound.
The last paragraph of that post espouses a view on democracy that I reckon would warm Muammar Gaddafi's heart.
Iwasfrozen makes the most reasonable statement above, but can I ask you, in light of the fact that Fine Gael and Labour have agreed a position on the status of Irish immediately following a general election, has democracy not spoken and do we not now have a clear mandate for the life of this government that Irish is to remain compulsory post-JC?
Maybe, it's hard to say what's really going on in Kenny's mind. On the one end he say's he will make Irish a compulsory subject as part of his manifesto and on the other a member of his party emailed Deise to say that Irish may not be made optional for several generations! Yet Enda has never made a statement either way on the issue. Perhaps because he's afraid of rocking the boat with Labour.0 -
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »Not exactly, electing politicians to make unpopular decisions for the benifit of the nation is a cornerstone of modern representative democracy.
Maybe, it's hard to say what's really going on in Kenny's mind. On the one end he say's he will make Irish a compulsory subject as part of his manifesto and on the other a member of his party emailed Deise to say that Irish may not be made optional for several generations! Yet Enda has never made a statement either way on the issue. Perhaps because he's afraid of rocking the boat with Labour.
Well if he made a statement to the effect of the E-mail I got then I doubt any boat would be rocked as it would fit labor's policy just fine.
It seams with politicians you really need to read between the lines, he said they will make Irish optional, but the fine print was, after a thorough review of the curriculum'
It was there in black and white as part of their election manifesto, I believe I pointed it out a few times, some people just did not want to believe it though.
Anyway, we are talking about the position of Irish in the state, not just about education system.
If you think there would be no major protest at the government repealing the OLA, Scraping the twenty year plan and closing the office of the Language commissiner and Udaras na Gaelthachta and TG4 and RnaG as well as various newspapers as Gaeilge, then you have your head truly buried.0
)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O73QKzxmUWs
This discussion has been closed.
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