Is Irish a dead language?

eco2live

Ta Dead agus Dead

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

and the needs and rights of children and parents?

The current educational policy does not put Irish promotion first, anymore than it puts English and Maths first.

You have the right to a free education, according to the way in which the Department of Education and Skills wants to teach the subjects. If you don't want your child to be educated, that's the parents choice, and an irresponsible one at that.

The needs of children are equal chance of survival on this planet. Learning Irish does not threaten their very existence!

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

The current educational policy does not put Irish promotion first, anymore than it puts English and Maths first.

You have the right to a free education, according to the way in which the Department of Education and Skills wants to teach the subjects. If you don't want your child to be educated, that's the parents choice, and an irresponsible one at that.

The needs of children are equal chance of survival on this planet. Learning Irish does not threaten their very existence!

But, does it put the imposition of Irish as a higher priority than the principal of respecting the needs and rights of parents and children?

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Here's a question though (and realise I mean it with respect; I appreciate that post and fair play to you for it). What's the difference between this "opt out" system and making it optional? You seem to be suggesting that if people really don't want to do Irish, they should not be forced to and they should be allowed to dedicate time to other subjects. But...by definition, does that not mean you are saying you think it should be optional? You're giving people the option to "opt out". I could be wrong, but I seem to get the feeling your proposing this as an alternative to making the language optional in school....

I am proposing that students be given the ability to opt out of Irish if they want to, not that it be made optional.

The difference being that a subject that is Optional(Ie along the lines that History is optional for example) is an opt in system. Students have to actually choose to do it.
Irish under the system I propose would be Opt out. ie the student is doing it unless they decide not to.

Is it that Irish would be timetabled against nothing else and if students wanted to opt out, they would...what? Sit there and do nothing in the class? Cause I have a feeling everyone would take that option to just doss about and have a free class. I do feel that if you are going to give stduents the option not to do a subject, you have to make sure something is timetabled in or the system would be abused....

That would be it really, When I said it should remain a core subject, that is what I ment. Not being timetabled against anything else.

If the student wanted to opt out of Irish, I would suggest that they have to give a reason for why, ie they want to study Applied maths(For Example) in that time. They would not be allowed just sit there, they would have to do something.

One of the problems with the current exemption system is that students who are exempt from Irish do just sit there(In General). I think that if an Opt out of Irish system was put in place it would have to be made clear that it is not Opt out and do nothing with that time. Those opting out would have to use the time for something.

As for the question, a few pages and days back, about what would happen students who chose not to do a compulsory subject, there weren't many answers to the question to be honest. The general feeling was that the school is not under any real power to do anything about the student, provided he doesn't distrupt the learnings of other students. Sadly, that's the case not just for the compulsion aspect of teaching but the general school life and why discipline can be a problem.

Of course, the point has been made to me that the idea of having a fail on your leaving cert would be enough to make good students work as hard as possible in the subject even if they hated it and wanted to prioritise differently. I can relate to that thought though cause its what happened me; I really didn't want to be doing the subject but knowing I had to, I worked hard. Thus the problem lies in the fact that "bad kids", the ones who would choose not to do a compulsory subject, probably wouldn't make that choice because they disapprove of Irish in schools being compuslory but because they are lazy or struggle with education, while the "good kids" who would question the usefulness of the subject in the long term would do it anyway cause they feel they don't have a choice...

Thanks for the reply on this issue, The main reason I brought it up was because of some people stressing the Forced aspect of Irish in school. It is relativly easy to get out of either by exemption or just not doing it.

I think however a system that would rely on that is essentially flawed.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But, does it put the imposition of Irish as a higher priority than the principal of respecting the needs and rights of parents and children?

Imposition? What are you talking about?

Who defines the "needs and rights of parents and children?" Yet another silly line of argument and yet another empty argument on your part. You really need to do better.

I've been involved in this debate since pretty near the beginning and yet no one in the anti-anything-Irish brigade can come up with any sort of convincing argument. Describing the learning of Irish as an "imposition (against) the needs and rights of parents and children" really is the pathetic last straw I'm afraid.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Who defines the "needs and rights of parents and children?"

The children and their parents.

Silly me for thinking that the educational system would make put them at the centre of any policy.

dubhthach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The children and their parents.

Silly me for thinking that the educational system would make put them at the centre of any policy.

Of course I think the better question is have "Children and parents" ever been consulted about any part of the school curriculum (not just irish) ?

In general "Mandarins" very rarely listen to the opinions of the "common people", I doubt the Department of Education variety even consider Parents/Children as stakeholders in the education system.

hatz7

The Irish language is not dead, it will live on forever.
It will hovewer, lose battle after battle.
Every facet of Irish which has ben demonised for years will come under greater and greater scrutiny and hostility,until the day when open hostility to Irish will come! There'll be a kerfuffle, maybe even a schmozzle.
After destruction and open hostilities are brought to an end, the peace talks begin.
Then and only then, will the future of Irish as a spoken language be debated. Its a pity that it can't happen now.

_Cato_

I believe as a species, we evolve.

Irish will live forever, as will ancient Greek, Latin and all other languages that have declined or don't make-up our everyday vocabulary. There comes a period in our evolutionary journey where languages, customs and aspects of culture and everyday attitudes change or transform. Is Irish any less a language than English? Of course not. But English is a practical way to communicate with different people across the globe today.

In 5,000 years, will English still be the number one language? I doubt it. Chinese is on the rise and that will no doubt fade away with time too. I do believe however that compulsory Irish in school is not the best way to spend our scarce time. By all means, those who wish to learn, should be encouraged just as much as those who wish to be educated in other languages. But when it comes down to it, it's important that students and parents have a choice.

One aspect of our educational system is fundamentally flawed. For example, why would your literacy in the Irish language determine your future prospects as an economist, or a medical student? Yet, it can virtually destroy your plans and by extension, your future career.

Grudaire

hatz7 wrote: »

The Irish language is not dead, it will live on forever.
It will hovewer, lose battle after battle.
Every facet of Irish which has ben demonised for years will come under greater and greater scrutiny and hostility,until the day when open hostility to Irish will come! There'll be a kerfuffle, maybe even a schmozzle.
After destruction and open hostilities are brought to an end, the peace talks begin.
Then and only then, will the future of Irish as a spoken language be debated. Its a pity that it can't happen now.

In fairness I don't see much covert hostility! (Especially on this thread!)

Caireann

Ok just thought i'd give my two cents. When i finished the junior cert I tried very hard to get exempt from irish. I hated it with a passion and could barly string two words together. Im nearly finished 5th year now (my leaving cert is next year) and I love the language so much. We got a new teacher this year who works us to the bone and it was either work at it or drop to pass. I think its amazing we have our own little culture and I really feel apart of a community. I love buying the foinse and am delighted with myself when i understand. If irish wasnt compulsary i would have quit but im so glad its not. I only wish I was better at the language.

cyclopath2001

Caireann wrote: »

I love buying the foinse and am delighted with myself when i understand.

How much does it cost? Who sells it?

hatz7

Cliste wrote: »

In fairness I don't see much covert hostility! (Especially on this thread!)

Well that's because there are decent respectful people on this thread. The covert hostility is in reference to media agenda ect, that another poster referred to, casual hostility towards Irish for want of a better term.

but I'll stand by a prediction of the day when Irish will be met with open hostility. It won't win, but it may just have to happen for a compromise to be found.

Godge

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

The current educational policy does not put Irish promotion first, anymore than it puts English and Maths first.

You have the right to a free education, according to the way in which the Department of Education and Skills wants to teach the subjects. If you don't want your child to be educated, that's the parents choice, and an irresponsible one at that.

The needs of children are equal chance of survival on this planet. Learning Irish does not threaten their very existence!

Given that we are so far down the ranks internationally in terms of literacy, numeracy and science, I hardly think that a rejection of the Department of Education and Skills system is an irresponsible choice.

The mandatory teaching of Irish and religion at first level, in a school year that is shorter (in terms of hours) than most others is what has led us to the sorry place in international terms.

Caireann

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How much does it cost? Who sells it?

Its in the irish independant every Wednesday. Not sure of the price but I think its cheap enough. Its a really good read, recommend it.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

Given that we are so far down the ranks internationally in terms of literacy, numeracy and science, I hardly think that a rejection of the Department of Education and Skills system is an irresponsible choice.

The mandatory teaching of Irish and religion at first level, in a school year that is shorter (in terms of hours) than most others is what has led us to the sorry place in international terms.

Oh please Godge, that is just rubbish, There is nothing to even link the teaching of Irish, whether it is compulsory or not, to the problem in the education system, never mind suggest it is a causative factor. It is vastly more complex than that.

Everything I have seen suggests that the teaching of second languages is quite beneficial in educational terms, for the learners first language skills and even for their maths skills.

deise go deo

Caireann wrote: »

Its in the irish independant every Wednesday. Not sure of the price but I think its cheap enough. Its a really good read, recommend it.

Gaelscéal is better(I mo thuairim) It costs €1.65.

Caireann

deise go deo wrote: »

Gaelscéal is better(I mo thuairim) It costs €1.65.

I've never seen it in the shops, is it sold widely? And whats it about? I mean news, culture, celebrity?

deise go deo

Caireann wrote: »

I've never seen it in the shops, is it sold widely? And whats it about? I mean news, culture, celebrity?

You can get it online too, You wont find it in most shops, though you could ask them to get it in for you.

Its very much the same as any other paper, Think a more compact version of the Times as Gaeilge, except that Irish Language issues are well represented.

Cakes.

The list of the shops it is sold in: http://www.gaelsceal.ie/media/Liosta_Siopai_pdf.pdf

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The children and their parents.

Silly me for thinking that the educational system would make put them at the centre of any policy.

No mass protests from any parents yet anyway.

I hope you're not suggesting giving children too much of a say in how they are educated. I fear they may not want to do any school subjects then! A bit silly indeed!

Oasis_Dublin

Godge wrote: »

Given that we are so far down the ranks internationally in terms of literacy, numeracy and science, I hardly think that a rejection of the Department of Education and Skills system is an irresponsible choice.

The mandatory teaching of Irish and religion at first level, in a school year that is shorter (in terms of hours) than most others is what has led us to the sorry place in international terms.

Seems like you've taken a giant leap there between Irish people being stupid and the Irish language being the cause.

Thank our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (whoops, I've let that darn Primary school education get to me!) that you haven't allowed your hatred for the language to blur your perspective on it anyway.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

No mass protests from any parents yet anyway.

Just widespread passive resistance.

cyclopath2001

Caireann wrote: »

Its in the irish independant every Wednesday. Not sure of the price but I think its cheap enough. Its a really good read, recommend it.

It's given away for nothing in the Independent, you said you'd paid for Foinse?

dubhthach

The problem with literacy is due to the fact that we have one of the lowest spends on Education in the OECD per head of population. Even the money we spend tends to be more concentrated at third level. For example third level gets twice the funding of primary. Given that primary is the building block of literacy it's no wonder we have issues.

In general it's like all Infrastructure in this country, for years it was a band-aid here and band-aid there (usually in Ministers constituencies). Of course they then sold us the fallacy that "We have the best education system ever!"

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Gaelscéal is better(I mo thuairim) It costs €1.65.

That's what is charged to the buyer, but it costs more than that, as it is funded by Foras na Gaeilge.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's what is charged to the buyer, but it costs more than that, as it is funded by Foras na Gaeilge.

Whats your point?
What has that got to do with it being a better paper than Foinse in my opinion?

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Just widespread passive resistance.

At the very worst, they have acquiesced. That said, this idea of "resistance" is has very much been exaggerated in your anti-Irish language brain. Shame that.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

At the very worst, they have acquiesced. That said, this idea of "resistance" is has very much been exaggerated in your anti-Irish language brain. Shame that.

I am no more anti-Irish than you are against human rights.

Given that the majority do not speak Irish when once they are no longer compelled to do so, I think that you should accept the possibility that 14 years of compulsory lessons a very inefficient way to give everyone a 'cupla focal'. This could easily be achieved in a day.

faobhar

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's what is charged to the buyer, but it costs more than that, as it is funded by Foras na Gaeilge.

You know the Jameson Dublin Film Festival? You know IMMA? You know the the Dublin' Writers Festival? You know the Kilkenny Cat Laughs Festival?

They all charge X amount of money to the buyer (or are occasionally free), but they cost more than that, as they are funded by the Arts Council.

The State prioritises certain things for funding. There is nothing new or sinister in that (and I have just chosen one specific sector to demonstrate that; I could do the same for tourism, the film industry, sport or any number of other sectors).

Godge wrote: »

The mandatory teaching of Irish and religion at first level, in a school year that is shorter (in terms of hours) than most others is what has led us to the sorry place in international terms.

That is an awfully overarching statement and is most certainly missing the point. What has led us to this sorry place is a poor overall ethic in terms of education, and most especially woeful systems of assessment (JC and LC).