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Is Irish a dead language?

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    #362
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,798 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    And I occasionally wheel out my rusty maths, but use Irish all the time.

    [Okay, I wrote it that way for symmetry: I use Irish quite often.]

    Individual cases rarely prove anything other than existence (and yes, I know that a proof of existence is sometimes important but not, I think, in this discussion).
    I had hoped it would be obvious that that was my point.


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    #363
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I had hoped it would be obvious that that was my point.

    That's the problem with clever people: their point is not always obvious.


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    #364
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,601 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Note I said honors maths, not relatively basic simple maths. Of course it depends on what you do for a living.....

    The pass maths level is pretty essential for almost every skilled job there is. Pass Irish isn't even useful if you need to use Irish, such is the low level of fluency in Irish needed to pass it.

    If someone isn't able to get a decent mark in pass maths, their career paths are very very limited.

    (there's also foundation level maths)

    The problem is that they make Irish compulsary to get into Uni level courses. Most (if not all) Uni courses require someone to be proficient in Maths (even if it's Arts). Barely any of them require Irish.


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    #365
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    owenc wrote: »
    Look please just stop, stop trying to compare irish with maths or compare it with other languages because the numbers aren't there and the importances aren't there either.

    I didn't compare and contrast the importance of Irish & Maths. Perhaps you might re-read my post and point out where I did that.
    owenc wrote: »
    You don't need irish for any jobs and let me tell you i'd rather have my maths a levels than an irish a level as without it, it would be quite hard to get a good job.

    Firstly, there are a number of jobs that require Irish.

    Secondly, I don't learn Irish to improve my chances of seeking employment. I learn it to be able to speak it. What you personally prefer is of little importance to me.


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    #366
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That is not what I said. The Irish language is supported by the state (through state services) so they are not forced to operate through English.

    The compulsory Irish question is an entirely different discussion, which I believe we have already had.


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    #367
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    astrofool wrote: »
    The problem is that they make Irish compulsary to get into Uni level courses. Most (if not all) Uni courses require someone to be proficient in Maths (even if it's Arts). Barely any of them require Irish.

    I don't think you'll find many people that agree with Irish being a compulsory subject for entry to non-Irish based courses. It's an archaic and backwards rule.


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    #368
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Ditto with the third language rule. Why should I need French to study law or history in UCD?


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    #369
    jock101
    Registered Users Posts: 685 ✭✭✭jock101


    Irish should be optional, not forced on people. That's just cultural fascism!:mad:


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    #370
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,601 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Ditto with the third language rule. Why should I need French to study law or history in UCD?

    This is an entry requirement that the uni/college decides upon, and is not forced upon them (unlike Irish). The course requirements are there to ensure that the people who take the course are likely to be able to complete it. Knowing a foreign language is an indication that the person can study and learn a language different to their mother tongue (English in this country).

    I think they should allow Irish to be that second language, and remove the compulsary Irish component. We'd probably find the popularity of the language go up, and fluency increase if people thought they could get a uni place with it.

    What is ridiculous:
    Irish educated person to get into an Irish uni requires: English, Maths, Foreign Language, Irish
    Any other person to get into an Irish uni requires: English, Maths, Foreign Language

    It's completely insane, and typical of the political class of this country.


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    #371
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't think you'll find many people that agree with Irish being a compulsory subject for entry to non-Irish based courses. It's an archaic and backwards rule.
    I would see it being there for the same purpose as the Irish requirement for much of the public sector or the compulsion in school. It is part of the philosophy of promoting Irish using the stick rather than the carrot, and as such is counter-productive.


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    #372
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    lugha wrote: »
    I would see it being there for the same purpose as the Irish requirement for much of the public sector or the compulsion in school. It is part of the philosophy of promoting Irish using the stick rather than the carrot, and as such is counter-productive.

    In regards to the public sector - it is to ensure that people can operate through Irish.

    Regarding the stick/carrot in schools, I agree.


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    #373
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    dlofnep wrote:
    I don't learn Irish to improve my chances of seeking employment. I learn it to be able to speak it.

    This.


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    #374
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    eddyc wrote: »
    Why should that not be accepted, if wearing a shoe on your head was Irish culture would you make everyone do it regardless of whether they felt it was part of their culture or not?
    I am being facetious of course, but where was Irish culture written in stone? Oh yes I remember when we tried to make ourselves as different from Britain as we possibly could for political reasons. Reasons which are completely irrelevant today.
    It goes beyond being merely our culture. It's our language and whether people like it or not there is still a majority who believe it should be saved and even revived. I may have a more hard core approach to it, probably totally unrealistic. Someone mentioned the Welsh approach. I don't see why we cannot mimic their success.
    <br/><br/>
    It's not just about being different from Britain, its about becoming more European and having an identity in the world other than uneducated drunks.


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    #375
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    20goto10 wrote: »
    It goes beyond being merely our culture. It's our language and whether people like it or not there is still a majority (minority) who believe it should be saved and even revived. I may have a more hard core approach to it, probably totally unrealistic. Someone mentioned the Welsh approach. I don't see why we cannot mimic their success.
    <br/><br/>
    It's not just about being different from Britain, its about becoming more European and having an identity in the world other than uneducated drunks.

    Sorry minority.


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    #376
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    dlofnep wrote: »

    Firstly, there are a number of jobs that require Irish.


    Which ones, and don't list a public sector job


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    #377
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    who the fug wrote: »
    Which ones, and don't list a public sector job
    Barrister for one.


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    #378
    eddyc
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭eddyc


    20goto10 wrote: »
    It goes beyond being merely our culture. It's our language and whether people like it or not there is still a majority who believe it should be saved and even revived. I may have a more hard core approach to it, probably totally unrealistic. Someone mentioned the Welsh approach. I don't see why we cannot mimic their success.
    <br/><br/>
    It's not just about being different from Britain, its about becoming more European and having an identity in the world other than uneducated drunks.

    Can't we just get over the national inferiority complex?
    Ireland has a highly positive identity in the world, I would almost compare Irelands image in the world to Apple computers, the reality isn't as good as the marketing of course but my some of my German friends think Ireland is a magical place, great for hiking etc.


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    #379
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Barrister for one.

    How, is Conemarra a massive criminal conspiracy or are they all importing Coke in Dingle


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    #380
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    who the fug wrote: »
    Which ones, and don't list a public sector job

    There are 1000's of jobs. Teaching, media, law, public relations.. Why wouldn't I list public sector employment? A job is a job, is it not? A poster made a comment that no jobs require Irish - I refuted that. What exactly is there to discuss?


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    #381
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    dlofnep wrote: »
    There are 1000's of jobs. Teaching, media, law, public relations.. Why wouldn't I list public sector employment? A job is a job, is it not? A poster made a comment that no jobs require Irish - I refuted that. What exactly is there to discuss?

    If there was no legal reason to speak or publish and document in Irish, would it get you a job


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    #382
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    who the fug wrote: »
    How, is Conemarra a massive criminal conspiracy or are they all importing Coke in Dingle
    Irish is a requirement, some court cases take place through Irish. Constitutional law etc... A grasp of Irish is a requirement to being called to the bar.


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    #383
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    who the fug wrote: »
    If there was no legal reason to speak or publish and document in Irish, would it get you a job

    *sigh*

    Irish language based jobs would still exist. My point still stands - jobs exist that require Irish, contrary to the beliefs of our earlier poster who stated otherwise.


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    #384
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #385
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Should all paperwork of that kind not be axed and held online?


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    #386
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #387
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    dlofnep wrote: »
    *sigh*

    Irish language based jobs would still exist. My point still stands - jobs exist that require Irish, contrary to the beliefs of our earlier poster who stated otherwise.

    Remove the support and the parrot is dead


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    #388
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    who the fug wrote: »
    Which [jobs?]
    dlofnep wrote: »
    There are 1000's of jobs. Teaching, media, law, public relations.. Why wouldn't I list public sector employment? A job is a job, is it not? A poster made a comment that no jobs require Irish - I refuted that. What exactly is there to discuss?
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Irish is a requirement, some court cases take place through Irish. Constitutional law etc... A grasp of Irish is a requirement to being called to the bar.
    who the fug wrote: »
    Remove the support and the parrot is dead

    Who the fug - why bother asking a question if you have no intention of listening to the answer?


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    #389
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yeah, because Clare is the heart and soul of the Irish language community. :) There is demand for such services, and people's wishes are required to be fulfilled. You are completely missing the point. If a population is obliged to operate through one language over another, then it will weaken their native language over time. Citing one instance of a constituency that has very limited Irish speakers doesn't address the issue on a broad scale. Infact, many Irish speakers are unaware of their rights to use the Irish language at an official level, which is why they often seek documents in English.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Perhaps we could roll out funds on a constituency basis - where the demand is there, the the documents should be provided. I don't see any need to spend pointlessly on documents in a single constituency where the demand is not there - but I do see the need to spend, if the demand exists - which it clearly does.


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    #390
    onemorechance
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭onemorechance


    The French speak French, the Spanish speak Spanish, the Portugese speak Portugese, the English speak English, the Senegalese speak French, the Mexicans speak Spanish, the Brazilians speak Portugese, the Irish speak English.

    Preserving Irish can help preserve Ireland as an individual and unique country, as much as that is possible whilst being in the EU and the modern global economy.


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    #391
    eddyc
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭eddyc


    onemorechance wrote: »
    The French speak French, the Spanish speak Spanish, the Portugese speak Portugese, the English speak English, the Senegalese speak French, the Mexicans speak Spanish, the Brazilians speak Portugese, the Irish speak English.

    Preserving Irish can help preserve Ireland as an individual and unique country, as much as that is possible whilst being in the EU and the modern global economy.

    By that logic Austria, Belgium, Switzerland and countless other countries aren't very individual or unique.


This discussion has been closed.
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