Is Irish a dead language?

astrofool

Forcing us to use Irish will drastically reduce our exports as all the multinationals leave the country.

The cost involved to mandate it's use would drive us to an even bigger deficit. We would also have mass migration away from Ireland, both by the natives, and foreigners.

dlofnep

astrofool wrote: »

Forcing us to use Irish will drastically reduce our exports as all the multinationals leave the country.

Nobody can be forced to use Irish. The only time anyone would be required to speak it, would be in Irish class in school. I'm afraid to say, I can't see, even by the largest stretch how this would impact on our exports, or current status of multinationals in the state.

Wolfe Tone

dlofnep wrote: »

Nobody can be forced to use Irish. The only time anyone would be required to speak it, would be in Irish class in school. I'm afraid to say, I can't see, even by the largest stretch how this would impact on our exports, or current status of multinationals in the state.

Neither can I tbh.

djpbarry

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I was Frozen originally asked the question about what is wrong about having too much imports.

No, Iwasfrozen asked what is wrong with having large amounts of imports - that's not the same thing. There are many things that are not economically produced in this country - there's nothing wrong with importing these things (in large amounts, if need be).

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I advocated nothing.

Sure you did:

MUSSOLINI wrote:

A protectionist tariff of a 100% on goods like that which are uneconomical to produce here might make it cheaper to make them here, hence more jobs. As a country the aim should be to have as little imports as possible.
...
Through protectionist policies you can make it uneconomical to import things.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The clothing example was just that: an example. An example of what could be done to reduce imports.

But, more generally, you're advocating increased tariffs to discourage importing, right?

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm afraid to say, I can't see, even by the largest stretch how this would impact on our exports, or current status of multinationals in the state.

I think astrofool was making the point that, in theory, forcing the entire population to speak Irish would probably not be a good economic move.

dlofnep

djpbarry wrote: »

I think astrofool was making the point that, in theory, forcing the entire population to speak Irish would probably not be a good economic move.

Fair enough - but who was advocating forcing the entire population to speak any language? Seems like a random comment to make.

Sue Rocks

the only way to re-invigorate the language is to encourage its use in every day life etc like in the Gealtacht and not through learning ancient poetry and essays and other useless stuff ... if only there was a Hector who wasnt so unbelievably annoying!!!

Wolfe Tone

@djpbarry

Of course I am advocating tariffs for certain things. You do know the damage unrestricted free trade can do? The EU runs tariffs etc on some goods you know.

I merely outlined how imports could be reduced.
When the "large amounts" of imports exceed exports then you are in trouble.


Personally I would rather see attempts to increase exports rather than reduce imports
Did you miss that bit? When that is impossible you will have to reduce imports.


Are you advocating total global free trade? Are you advocating that imports should be allowed to uncontrollably exceed exports?

dlofnep

Sue Rocks wrote: »

the only way to re-invigorate the language is to encourage its use in every day life etc like in the Gealtacht and not through learning ancient poetry and essays and other useless stuff ... if only there was a Hector who wasnt so unbelievably annoying!!!

Personally I like Hector. He's enthusiastic about the language, and just gives it a shot.

Wolfe Tone

I think Gaeltachts should be cheaper. My parents spent a ridiculous amount to send me to An Spidéal. I had a blast though.

Iwasfrozen

20goto10 wrote: »

1. Do I really need to explain why less imports is better for the economy?

Yes. Foreign products are cheaper because their producation facilities can achieve an economy of scale. They are also more competitive, utilize more advanced technology, have better trained staff and produce cheaper products because of this.

To demonstrate I point you in the direction of "Teidí" the world's first irish speaking teddy bear... Who will be made in China.
Source: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/made-in-china-tag-a-bonus-for-irish-speaking-teidi-124066.html

20goto10 wrote: »

2. I've already stated that wide spread day to day use of the Irish language would create a demand for Irish language products. Granted, these could still be imported but realistically this would be a home grown industry.

Realistically it wouldn't. As I've already pointed out Ireland simply isn't competitive enough. Our pal "Teidí" shows us this.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Personally I like Hector. He's enthusiastic about the language, and just gives it a shot.

He is incredibly annoying though. Well, that's not fair. I like him... in small doses.

briany

I think we're pretty much in agreement that Irish is not taught in an engaging way at primary/secondary level generally speaking - "Liom leat leis lei linn libh leo. Repeat"

If ye were in charge of how Irish was taught in public schools across the country, how would ye change the syllabus to rectify this problem?

Iwasfrozen

briany wrote: »

If ye were in charge of how Irish was taught in public schools across the country, how would ye change the syllabus to rectify this problem?

Well, what would you do first?

briany

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well, what would you do first?

Well the thing that I wished had been done when I was at school and seeing all these strange looking words in the workbooks was for the teacher to converse with us in the language. Now it would have been a very gradual process but much like in the same way that we learned English, we learned to speak it before we could write it and having our vocabulary grow from one word to two to four to eight and so on and having a direct relationship with what they mean rather than "Madra = dog, dearg = red" Basically for the Irish teacher to immerse the children in the language as much as they can or as much as the children want to be.

I remember in primary school when another would come into our class to converse with our teacher in a subject probably not meant for our ears they would talk about it in Irish. Now to me that's an indictment of the way it was taught if ever there was one that here was the language they were supposed to be teaching us but were using it fairly safe in the knowledge that we couldn't understand them......

Iwasfrozen

briany wrote: »

Well the thing that I wished had been done when I was at school and seeing all these strange looking words in the workbooks was for the teacher to converse with us in the language. Now it would have been a very gradual process but much like in the same way that we learned English, we learned to speak it before we could write it and having our vocabulary grow from one word to two to four to eight and so on and having a direct relationship with what they mean rather than "Madra = dog, dearg = red" Basically for the Irish teacher to immerse the children in the language as much as they can or as much as the children want to be.

I remember in primary school when another would come into our class to converse with our teacher in a subject probably not meant for our ears they would talk about it in Irish. Now to me that's an indictment of the way it was taught if ever there was one that here was the language they were supposed to be teaching us but were using it fairly safe in the knowledge that we couldn't understand them......

But there are many parents who won't want their children to converse in irish at school in the fear that it will stunt their childs development in english. Or confuse them as they have to switch back and forth between english at home and irish at school respectively.

I understand what you're saying but forcing the language on small children is not a good way to go.

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But there are many parents who won't want their children to converse in irish at school in the fear that it will stunt their childs development in english. Or confuse them as they have to switch back and forth between english at home and irish at school respectively.

I understand what you're saying but forcing the language on small children is not a good way to go.

I dont feel that is correct. Many people go to gaelscoils and become bilingual and it in no way stunts them.

Focalbhach

briany wrote: »

Well the thing that I wished had been done when I was at school and seeing all these strange looking words in the workbooks was for the teacher to converse with us in the language. Now it would have been a very gradual process but much like in the same way that we learned English, we learned to speak it before we could write it and having our vocabulary grow from one word to two to four to eight and so on and having a direct relationship with what they mean rather than "Madra = dog, dearg = red" Basically for the Irish teacher to immerse the children in the language as much as they can or as much as the children want to be.

I remember in primary school when another would come into our class to converse with our teacher in a subject probably not meant for our ears they would talk about it in Irish. Now to me that's an indictment of the way it was taught if ever there was one that here was the language they were supposed to be teaching us but were using it fairly safe in the knowledge that we couldn't understand them......

Well said. The way languages (all languages, not just Irish) are taught in this country is backward. They are a means of communication, of expression, yet we don't use them orally in school until the final year of the Leaving Cert. Learn to speak the language while you're young (as with, for example, English), and the rest will follow later.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I dont feel that is correct. Many people go to gaelscoils and become bilingual and it in no way stunts them.

But parents send their children to gaelscoils by choice so they obviously don't hold that opinion. If you try and introduce irish speaking across every school in the country then inevitably you will encounter parents with these fears who demand their children speak only in the alternative national language protected by the constitution. English.

Focalbhach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But there are many parents who won't want their children to converse in irish at school in the fear that it will stunt their childs development in english. Or confuse them as they have to switch back and forth between english at home and irish at school respectively.

I understand what you're saying but forcing the language on small children is not a good way to go.

That's not right. Millions upon millions upon millions of children learn two (or more) languages simultaneously without confusing them.

Learning multiple languages doesn't mean that one hinders the other - it's more beneficial than if one language was learned in isolation. I don't think you're giving the young mind enough credit.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But parents send their children to gaelscoils by choice so they obviously don't hold that opinion. If you try and introduce irish speaking across every school in the country then inevitably you will encounter parents with these fears who demand their children speak only in the alternative national language protected by the constitution. English.

Are you stating this in response to the possibility of all schools becoming Gaelscoilenna? Just curious - as there isn't the provisions there for it to happen in either case.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Are you stating this in response to the possibility of all schools becoming Gaelscoilenna? Just curious - as there isn't the provisions there for it to happen in either case.

It's in response to briany's suggestion that pupils should converse in the irish language with teachers in school.

Focalbhach

dlofnep wrote: »

Are you stating this in response to the possibility of all schools becoming Gaelscoilenna? Just curious - as there isn't the provisions there for it to happen in either case.

That wasn't suggested - the discussion was about changes to the Irish curriculum, involving more oral language early on. Iwasfrozen's objection was the idea that this would confuse the children's learning of English.

Iwasfrozen

Leto wrote: »

That's not right. Millions upon millions upon millions of children learn two (or more) languages simultaneously without confusing them.

I didn't say it was right. I pointed out a possible problematic situation that may arise if all primary schools are made irish speaking, in which parents object with the idea that speaking irish in schools will hinder their childs development in english. And instead demand that their children speak only in english. One of the official languages of the state protected by the constitution.

Focalbhach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I didn't say it was right. I pointed out a possible problematic situation that may arise if all primary schools are made irish speaking in which parents object with the idea that speaking irish in schools will hinder their development in english. And instead demand that their children speak only in english. One of the official languages of the state protected by the constitution.

Apologies for assigning that view to you.

What makes you think parents would object / hold that view?

Iwasfrozen

Leto wrote: »

Apologies for assigning that view to you.

No problem.

Leto wrote: »

What makes you think parents would object / hold that view?

Well if you introduce mandatory Irish in every primary school in the country. It is inevitable that some parents will object. That's just the nature of things.

Wolfe Tone

Is mandatory Irish not there already? Rather than reading about Rirá's misadventures that time might be better spent in part conversing?

Focalbhach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well if you introduce mandatory Irish in every primary school in the country. It is inevitable that some parents will object. That's just the nature of things.

Irish is already mandatory. I was talking about the idea of changing the curriculum to place much greater emphasis on oral language learning early on. I'm not sure what you're referring to - have we crossed wires?

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Is mandatory Irish not there already? Rather than reading about Rirá's misadventures that time might be better spent in part conversing?

It's there as a subject. Kind of hard to argue with speaking irish during the time allotted to irish as a subject. However the problems will begin to arise if irish is used in any other subject, such as history or geography.

Iwasfrozen

Leto wrote: »

Irish is already mandatory. I was talking about the idea of changing the curriculum to place much greater emphasis on oral language learning early on. I'm not sure what you're referring to - have we crossed wires?

Yes, it seems we have. Look at my above post for clearification.

Focalbhach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's there as a subject. Kind of hard to argue with speaking irish during the time allotted to irish as a subject. However the problems will begin to arise if irish is used in any other subject, such as history or geography.

I don't really see that as a problem, to be honest. If the intention is for the children to be able to communicate in a language and to appreciate it as a potential means of interaction (which is, really, the point), it seems reasonable that it be used now and then throughout the school day, appropriate to the pupils' proficiency. They can learn history through Irish just as easily as through English, as long as they can follow what the teacher is saying and respond in kind.