Is Irish a dead language?

sexualsheep

Iontach spéisiúl, sibhse uilig. A whole thread about Irish and only a wee bit used, says a lot now chun bheith ionrac libh. Apologies if this piece is ró-fhada dhíbh but I want to make a point by throwing in cúpla focal and making it a teanga beo for this excercise at least. The way I look at it, as someone who has come back to the language in his mid 20s and taught himself after having an ambivalent and distasteful view towards it previously in my school days (not the scarily vitriolic one displayed by a lot of people on the thread to both Béarla agus Gaeilge i scaití lol) I've to say the truth is probably in the middle of all the arguments.

There is the normal everyday Irish speaker, as endangered as the snow leopard and the career of Robbie Williams, who uses it when appropriate as it should be used; a tool of communication. That person deserves state aid (as do the travelling community languages I would argue but that's another discussion).

Then there are the sceimhlitheoirí Gaelach who had their first **** to a picture of Gráinne Seoige pouring a pint of Guiness. Na buachaillí sin, although well intentioned have done a lot of damage by imposing it on people.

Then there are the people who are of a Unionist or 'anti-Gaelic' (if I can use such a term) cultural bent who just despise it along with the GAA, Michael Collins and Riverdance because of the perceptions they were raised with (to yous I suggest you check out Rev Gary Hastings and Inis Bigil); fair enough you don't want to speak it that's sound, I won't force you but don't deprive or denegrate something that other people hold dear and want to use and which is culturally and practically important to everyone on this island (particuarly archaeologists and historians such as meself) and I won't deny you your right to a parade in Rossnowlagh, why would I, is maith liom Homepride ar aon nós.

Then there are people who, lets face it, had Gaelic 'rammed' down their throats as kids, and who maybe live in Dublin and who found it alien to their existence along with Declan Nerney (but perhaps that pertains to the rest of the country as well). To you I apologize. You had shi**y teachers and were made feel stupid for not being competent in something that was taught go dona. But it does not make it unnecessary in Ireland as a considerable amount of people are passionate about it and use it regulary as a lingua franca (tell even just 80,000 people that their language is stupid and undeserving of funding and they'll certainly f**k your thón up). I don't use the Luas or the DART everyday, and ideally I should'nt have to financially support it but I don't deny that they are an important resource (culturally even) to a significant proportion of people and in that stead I don't mind. Equally I am not a big fan of Dub GAA but that does'nt stop ''dublins chances this year'' being run down my throat every time I watch the sunday game (but will that change unless i take a CAC in the RTE canteen, doubtful). But I digress.

The point is hating a language is as stupid as hating the colour magenta, it will not make it universally disappear. Sin ráite, loving it won't make it reappear (loving a language seems strange to me since I rarely see lads in Connamara or Ceathrú Thaidhg with a hard on asking for the Nuachtáin Laethúil ins an tsiopa) The ultimate point is the vast majority of ireland have good will towards the irish language, some speak it natively, others as a second language that they find thoroughly rewarding and others simply don't give a f**k. Yes there is waste that needs to be addressed, yes it is taught badly and yes there is a lot to do to improve it's image but the statement 'irish is dead and irrelevant'; sin cac-tarbh mo chara!

I was recently in Inis Oirr and the lads I was with grew to like the auld cúpla focal go fiú because it was a bit of craic, not an idealistic conglomeration of ideologies forced down there scórnachaí through the medium of a second language. My cousin hated Irish, but was making an effort at the end of the week because I showed him its not all módh coinníolloch and nationalism, its actually enjoyable. And people from Árainn don't use the correct grammer anyway! He has gone from a hatred that was largely based on it being forced upon him to actually enjoying it. THAT is what the neigh sayers need, is to see that there are NORMAL people who don't wear aran sweaters and listen to wolfetones nonstop who actually like to use it, not to be snooty to anyone, but because it's good craic and you express yourself differently (and in many ways more naturally) as an irish person, which in itself is culturally important (even if it is just to say féach ar an fhear ramhar).

Críochnaithe anois. Slán agaibh.

Wolfe Tone

Please, paragraphs. Is hard to read.
I enjoyed that actually, I understood the Irish! haha

sexualsheep

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Please, paragraphs. Is hard to read.
I enjoyed that actually, I understood the Irish! haha

Brón orm a bhaic, second time ever posting on Boards! I'd say most people no what 'cac' means anyway!

Dostoevsky

sexualsheep wrote: »

I'd say most people no what 'cac' means anyway!

Yes, as in Séamas an Cháca.;)

Iwasfrozen

Sexualsheep, what is your position? You accurately list out the problems associated with irish but like a Labour T.D. you don't actually give any solutions. What would you like to see hapen in Ireland?

sexualsheep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sexualsheep, what is your position? You accurately list out the problems associated with irish but like a Labour T.D. you don't actually give any solutions. What would you like to see hapen in Ireland?

Ah now here my good sir/madame, I didn't insult you so why cast aspersions on my character by comparing me to a TD? What I responded to in my first time posting on this thread was the actual title of the article. I will offer my opinions to sate your curiosity but, as is every one elses opinion, I suppose it will not be entirely independent or impartial. But I will outline some practical viable things that could be done to at least preserve the language as it is in the Gaeltachtaí and to ammend it's teaching in schools (many have already been outlined on this thread to great effect). So long as you don't respond with some redundent argument like 'yeah but why bother' or 'I hate it and because I hate it NOBODY uses and it should not be supported' because I already responded to those in the previous post and they are erroneous arguments anyway.

Firstly, I don't think anyone on this thread or the world at large would say that compulsory Irish as it is taught in schools is functioning properly. Making it compulsory to leaving cert where students are relying on points to enter third level education is unfair, but I would also argue making the other two compulsory subjects (maths and english) votive at that level. Having Irish as a compulsory subject up until junior cert I would see as acceptable (along with the other two) as it would provide students with a knowledge and understanding of it at least and it wouldn't be resented as much. And a whole review of what universities require should follow (for instance, I have gone though the IT and the University systems and of many of the people I met in University, the previous knowledge of a European language did not help them greatly in their studies).

Secondly, as has been aforementioned, the biased focus on literature, filíocht prós agus a leithéid, is not making the language enjoyable for many students who have, at best, a rudimentary knowledge of it. Change it so that it becomes a spoken vernacular associated with 'fun' things like art, music, sport, plays, irish legends (the blood and gore type), etc from national school up. As has been mentioned, I see no great neccesity in forcing the sciences down someone's throat through Irish, but things like nature studies, history and geography where the language is immediately applicable would be an interesting idea, so long as it was done in an accesible way.

Thirdly, as regards the Gaeltachtaí, the decay that's happening in these regions is symptomatic of something else that is happening throughout rural Ireland. It's not just regarding Irish, but the things that are associated with a higher or more attractive status will naturally draw people to it. So we are not alone losing the language but our accents I would reckon as well in many cases! The easiest way to deal with this to address the Irish language media and investment in the regions. As it is we are spending loads on translating official documents that nobody reads (and yes they should be on a requested basis and all be online anyway). I would like to see that money reinvested in a national Irish radio station that had pop music and everything else you associate with a national radio station, besides the mostly miserable boring stuff you get in alot of Raidío na Gaeltachta (which should really be a local station anyway similar to midwest radio or 96 fm). I'm not saying Raidíó na Gaeltachta is not a valuable service to the people of the Gaeltacht, I am just saying that it's content should be focused on the local people at a local level, not nationally and that the content on it needs to be revised as it is not focused at the most important demographic, the young people. They could be served however, by a more national 'pop' orientated station, maybe similar to raidíó RíRá where there was no mass on a sunday and not every tune has 'Conn na Mara' or 'An Gorta Mhór' in the title.

Lastly, I think everyone on both sides needs to lighten the f**k up. To the seimthlitheoirí Gaeilge (Irish Language terrorists) don't be so precious about grammer or about everybody speaking it perfectly or about people being less 'Irish'. It's pi**ing people off. And to the Anti-gaelic brigade, Irish is not the sex trade, kids aren't being prostituted in the schools, it's a language and an important part of who we are no matter how you feel about it and deserves protecting (as do many other cultural aspects of this country which I don't feel are being protected but which I may not have an immediate interest in). We're not talking about forcing you to watch Ros na Rún but at least understand that the vast majority of the country wishes they could speak it and have good will towards it, from my experience at least. A poor educational system is the enemy not the language. Fan Classaí San Diego.

sexualsheep

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Yes, as in Séamas an Cháca.;)

Jesus, cheap mise go raibh tú ag caint faoi James Morrison! You can't win a war on broken strings.

Permabear

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Zeouterlimits

I hope to live to see the compulsory status of Irish removed in Secondary Schools.
Not that I don't want the teaching of it reformed however is deemed best, but please, make it an option.

sexualsheep

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

I hope to live to see the compulsory status of Irish removed in Secondary Schools.
Not that I don't want the teaching of it reformed however is deemed best, but please, make it an option.

I'd say that's a reasoned response. I could accept that. As I said, having those three currently compulsory subjects compulsory up until Junior Cert is not a bad thing because hopefully by the age of 15 you still have a grounding in most subjects in school and then after that you should be able to elect IMHO. I can't say the works of shakespeare or the Maclaurin series have helped me much since school but I have used my Irish at least!

sexualsheep

donegalfella wrote: »

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And people tend to wish the world was less racist and more equitable financially. And they tend to wish that more people recycled and that people drove safer on the roads. But they're awefully hard things that alot of people havn't gotten round to yet. It doesn't make them invalid aspirations. You can use that argument for anything.

And to say 'inflict' on the next generation is a little bit inflamitory, please be civil. Native speakers passing it on to their children are not 'inflicting' anything onto them (now if it was supporting the donegal football team then I might have a slightly different opinion lol).

It is an important part of our culture because it is where our vast famous literary heritage originated, why we are famed as the land of saints and scholars, it is responsible for almost every single placename in this country, for much of our music and song, for a large number of people who appreciate it's value. It's teaching in the school is another thing. I didn't particularly appreciate for instance technical graphics in school but I appreciate that it has a value that I am not privvy to it. I would still like it to be abolished from the school as I disliked it greatly. But then I would be depriving future generations of something important and I would'nt want to impose my views on them, a sin I am afraid you seem to be guilty of yourself.

Wolfe Tone

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thats a weak argument friend. You could apply that to anything really. Parents always try and want to give their kids skills, chances and abilities that they themselves never got a chance to have or try.

recedite

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sexualsheep, what is your position?

Permabear

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dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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I never felt it was inflicted upon myself..

Permabear

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Wolfe Tone

donegalfella wrote: »

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Would you apply that sentiment to every subject? Which is compulsory?

dlofnep

I didn't state it wasn't inflicted upon some people. I stated that it wasn't inflicted upon myself. You made that statement that it was inflicted upon non-native speakers, which is untrue. It may be inflicted upon some non-native speakers.

Now whether or not the Irish language's future should rest on the shoulders of the children of tomorrow is up for dispute. Whichever way you look at it, the Government took a decision to support the language - and the majority of the population support the language as part of our curriculum. If there was a serious problem with it being a mandatory part of our curriculum, you'd think there would be louder voices about it rather than the same old 3 or 4 people on the internet?

Just an observation.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

I didn't state it wasn't inflicted upon some people. I stated that it wasn't inflicted upon myself. You made that statement that it was inflicted upon non-native speakers, which is untrue. It may be inflicted upon some non-native speakers.

And you have made it clear that you are infavour of continued infliction upon those non-native speakers rather then make it a choice.

dlofnep wrote: »

Now whether or not the Irish language's future should rest on the shoulders of the children of tomorrow is up for dispute. Whichever way you look at it, the Government took a decision to support the language - and the majority of the population support the language as part of our curriculum.

You shouldn't claim something like that if you can't back it up.

dlofnep wrote: »

If there was a serious problem with it being a mandatory part of our curriculum, you'd think there would be louder voices about it rather than the same old 3 or 4 people on the internet?

Says the guy who regularly calls for continued mandatory education on the internet. :rolleyes:

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And you have made it clear that you are infavour of continued infliction upon those non-native speakers rather then make it a choice.

No I haven't. If you've actually read my past posts, you'd see that I actually wasn't against optional Irish for the leaving cert.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You shouldn't claim something like that if you can't back it up.

Then where are the protests? Why are the mass amounts of people who object to it? You won't find them.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Says the guy who regularly calls for continued mandatory education on the internet. :rolleyes:

Yawn.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

No I haven't. If you've actually read my past posts, you'd see that I actually wasn't against optional Irish for the leaving cert.

I have read your previous posts. And from that found out that you are infavour of a non-exam but mandatory spoken language class. An option that will no doubt help students enjoy the language more but does nothing to solve the time and money problem.

dlofnep wrote: »

Then where are the protests? Why are the mass amounts of people who object to it? You won't find them.

Just because people aren't protesting on the streets does not mean they are infavour of irish remaining mandatory in our schools. To say so requires a huge leap in logic.

dlofnep wrote: »

Yawn.

If you're tired you should be in bed. Rather then on here.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I have read your previous posts. And from that found out that you are infavour of a non-exam but mandatory spoken language class. An option that will no doubt help students enjoy the language more but does nothing to solve the time and money problem.

That will exist until the constitution states otherwise. I suggest you start a legitimate movement to remove it's constitutional status, and then you can remove the money problem. Until such a time - it will continue to be funded. Whether that funding is justified or not, can only be subjectively discussed.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Just because people aren't protesting on the streets does not mean they are infavour of irish remaining mandatory in our schools. To say so requires a huge leap in logic.

I never said that it was. But if they felt strongly about it, they would be protesting. To put it mildly, I could name 1001 things people protest about in this country, from important to very trivilial issues. The Irish language isn't one of them, so to be honest it doesn't require a leap of logic faith to state that people aren't moved either way about it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you're tired you should be in bed. Rather then on here.

I'm not physically tired. Just tired of your repetitive posts.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

That will exist until the constitution states otherwise. I suggest you start a legitimate movement to remove it's constitutional status, and then you can remove the money problem. Until such a time - it will continue to be funded. Whether that funding is justified or not, can only be subjectively discussed.

Not true. Bunreacht na hEireann says nothing about the inclusion of the irish language in our school curriculum.

dlofnep wrote: »

I never said that it was. But if they felt strongly about it, they would be protesting. To put it mildly, I could name 1001 things people protest about in this country, from important to very trivilial issues. The Irish language isn't one of them, so to be honest it doesn't require a leap of logic faith to state that people aren't moved either way about it.

So you admit that lack of protest is not proof that the majority of people are in favour of irish remaining on the curriculum?

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not physically tired. Just tired of your repetitive posts.

Repetitive? I haven't posted on the subject for weeks untill yesterday.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not true. Bunreacht na hEireann says nothing about the inclusion of the irish language in our school curriculum.

No, but it states "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language."

And as the first official language, one would assume that it would have equal status at least to English in school. If anything, it's already at a disadvantage and is not even at equal status. The Government need to do more, not less.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you admit that lack of protest is not proof that the majority of people are in favour of irish remaining on the curriculum?

No, but it's proof enough that they don't give a monkeys either way.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Repetitive? I haven't posted on the subject for weeks untill yesterday.

Neither have I, it doesn't mean that your posts aren't repetitive.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

No, but it states "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language."

And as the first official language, one would assume that it would have equal status at least to English in school. If anything, it's already at a disadvantage and is not even at equal status. The Government need to do more, not less.

It also states however: "Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof."

Meaning the government would be quite within it's constitutional right to remove all funding from the teaching of irish in schools.

Now I'm not in favour of that because I believe those who want to should be allowed to study it, but just be aware that the state is not obliged to financially support irish.

dlofnep wrote: »

No, but it's proof enough that they don't give a monkeys either way.

Agreed but that's not what you claimed. You claimed that the majority of people were in favour of the irish language being part of the curriculum and claimed that the lack of protest to the contrary was proof of this.

dlofnep wrote: »

Neither have I, it doesn't mean that your posts aren't repetitive.

By the same logic your posts must also be reptitive in that case.

Permabear

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Wolfe Tone

No. I would be quite happy to make English, maths, science, and a modern European language compulsory. These are crucial subjects for expressing ourselves, making calculations, understanding the world around us, and communicating with our EU neighbours and trading partners. There is no corresponding rationale for making Irish compulsory, other than the frankly absurd cant about it being "part of our identity"—which it isn't, because so few of us speak it or use it on a regular basis.

And everything else such as History and Geography etc optional? And is this right through the educational system or just in second level?

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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It does not oppose mandatory Irish. It suggested making Irish optional for the leaving cert. It does not opposed Irish being mandatory up until that level, and has stated "The Irish language must play a central role in our education system".

I don't disagree with many of Fine Gael's policies on the Irish language to be honest. They, like me are in favour of much more emphasis being placed on spoken Irish in primary school.

lugha

donegalfella wrote: »

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Indeed. Surely any argument from identity should be extended to other aspects of Irish culture. Perhaps no one should be permitted to work in the public sector unless they are a member of a GAA club or could give us a tune on a tin whistle or dance a hornpipe?

dlofnep

lugha wrote: »

Indeed. Surely any argument from identity should be extended to other aspects of Irish culture. Perhaps no one should be permitted to work in the public sector unless they are a member of a GAA club or could give us a tune on a tin whistle or dance a hornpipe?

Don't be obtuse.

The Irish language is required in such positions, because Irish speakers have a right to operate through the Irish language with government bodies. You know this, but yet - you are content with making such an absurd statement.

This is why we can't have a reasoned discussion about the Irish language.