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Is Irish a dead language?
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Irish and religion should both be an optional subjects as opposed to compulsary. I wish they would stop wasting money on both.0
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Well, you have expanded on my point here that the Celtic/Irish language replaced the indigenous language of the inhabitants of Ireland. And for exactly the same reasons it was itself replaced by the English language later. English; a language gradually created and adopted by Norman, Saxon, and to a lesser extent Viking and Gael, spread throughout the world on sailing ships, TV and internet.What is known was that at some point around 500-300 B.C. a language called Insular Celtic was being spoken on the two islands. How Insular Celtic got here is a mystery. Some theories are:
Celts invaded and brought the language.
Native Irish and British created it as pidgin to communicate with the Celts on the mainland.
Created as a result of a trading lingua franca based on Celtic and Punic, used by the Carthaginians on their trading routes. (This would explain some Semite like features in Irish and Welsh.).
Towards the end of 19th century most European countries were gripped by nationalistic fervour, which led inevitably to war. Here in Ireland we had the "Gaelic Revival" which was adopted with genuine enthusiasm by poets and rebels alike. Edward De Valera learned Irish and changed his name to Eamon in 1910. After he met his wife Janet, there was no Irish version for her name , so they made one up for her; Sinéad. A new name was born.
However all of this has essentially come from personal interest. The growth of the language in Northern Ireland (where it is growing fastest) originated in adult learners.
My argument against compulsory Irish at the Leaving Certificate would thus be:
(a) It is essentially unfair on those who do not want to do it. Particularly a student who is very talented at another subject possibly being held back because of it. (Yes, I am aware that one can make the same argument of the other subjects.)
(b) The language has grown mainly from genuine enthusiasm and state-mandated enthusiasm is surely an oxymoron.
Irish was really pushed by the new political elite after independence from Britain. It became essential for government jobs. It became mandatory in all schools within the state system. Anyone sitting the Leaving Cert through Irish got a boost in points allowing them to leapfrog over the competition for jobs and college places. I call that compulsion, not genuine enthusiasm.
In the North there has been genuine enthusiasm among adult learners, especially while in prison, but that is all tied up with politics.
In the Republic there has been something of a resurgence which IMO is largely attributable to two things;
1)Gaeilscoileanna became popular.
2)TG4 was established and broadcast cartoons as gaeilge, and later started programming for teenagers.
The increased freedom of choice offered by these is good, but it has to be noted that TG4 is a loss making state sponsored enterprise. And secondly it is noticeable that a high proportion of the parents of children in a Gaeilscoil are teachers or civil servants. They are naturally perpetuating the cycle, passing on the contrived advantage to their offspring. These type of parents who are actively interested in their kids education quickly gain for the school a good reputation, and so others are attracted and it snowballs into a successful growing movement.
In regard to mandatory Irish in the Leaving Cert, why would anyone study the language for 12 years under compulsion and then not sit the final exam? That appears may be the current policy of Fine Gael, but its a fudge to try to placate the various factions within their party. Even if the compulsion was removed for the final 2 years it would have consumed a colossal amount of pupil time and teaching resources.0 -
Well, you have expanded on my point here that the Celtic/Irish language replaced the indigenous language of the inhabitants of Ireland. And for exactly the same reasons it was itself replaced by the English language later. English; a language gradually created and adopted by Norman, Saxon, and to a lesser extent Viking and Gael, spread throughout the world on sailing ships, TV and internet.Towards the end of 19th century most European countries were gripped by nationalistic fervour, which led inevitably to war. Here in Ireland we had the "Gaelic Revival" which was adopted with genuine enthusiasm by poets and rebels alike. Edward De Valera learned Irish and changed his name to Eamon in 1910. After he met his wife Janet, there was no Irish version for her name , so they made one up for her; Sinéad. A new name was born.
Irish was really pushed by the new political elite after independence from Britain. It became essential for government jobs. It became mandatory in all schools within the state system. Anyone sitting the Leaving Cert through Irish got a boost in points allowing them to leapfrog over the completion for jobs and college places. I call that compulsion, not genuine enthusiasm.
In the North there has been genuine enthusiasm among adult learners, especially while in prison, but that is all tied up with politics.
In the Republic there has been something of a resurgence which IMO is largely attributable to two things;
1)Gaeilscoileanna became popular.
2)TG4 was established and broadcast cartoons as gaeilge, and later started programming for teenagers.
The increased freedom of choice offered by these is good, but it has to be noted that TG4 is a loss making state sponsored enterprise. And secondly it is noticeable that a high proportion of the parents of children in a Gaeilscoil are teachers or civil servants. They are naturally perpetuating the cycle, passing on the contrived advantage to their offspring. These type of parents who are actively interested in their kids education quickly gain for the school a good reputation, and so others are attracted and it snowballs into a successful growing movement.
In regard to mandatory Irish in the Leaving Cert, why would anyone study the language for 12 years under compulsion and then not sit the final exam? That appears may be the current policy of Fine Gael, but its a fudge to try to placate the various factions within their party. Even if the compulsion was removed for the final 2 years it would have consumed a colossal amount of pupil time and teaching resources.
it is?0 -
Thats rubbish tbh. EVERY country practiced protectionism, they wanted to be protected against another wall street crash.Well, the bit in bold is certain, DeValera started a trade war with Britain (at the time we imported almost everything from Britain and nowhere else). He did not want that, rathering that we live a "simpler life", and in the process hindering our own economic development, such was his shortsightedness and lack of belief that the Irish people could ever become more than that.
Ireland had a neo colonial economic relationship with Britain, the severing of those ties was a necessity. You make it sound like what Dev did was exclusive to Ireland, it was not. Nearly every country encouraged self sufficiency and employed protectionist policies.
It was bad economically for Ireland to rely solely on one country. The tie had to be broken, a prime example of a developing economy which has employed similar actions more recently is Brazil. Ireland was exporting raw materials and importing finished goods. That will not help an economy develop. Protectionism was an economic necessity in my opinion.0 -
Oh yes. In fact every Indo-European language would have had to replace a local language at some point, since it was originally spoken only in a small area to the east of Europe.Well, you have expanded on my point here that the Celtic/Irish language replaced the indigenous language of the inhabitants of Ireland. And for exactly the same reasons it was itself replaced by the English language later. English; a language gradually created and adopted by Norman, Saxon, and to a lesser extent Viking and Gael, spread throughout the world on sailing ships, TV and internet.
I would agree. Of course the language declined in those years. Since you have put my phrase in italics I imagine you are responding my use of that phrase. I must make it clear that I was saying that the stabalisation of the language in recent years has come mainly for interest. I wasn't claiming that its use throughout the history of the state was due to genuine enthusiasm. I was certainly not saying it being necessary for the civil service was due to genuine enthusiasm. Or perhaps I'm missing something.Towards the end of 19th century most European countries were gripped by nationalistic fervour, which led inevitably to war. Here in Ireland we had the "Gaelic Revival" which was adopted with genuine enthusiasm by poets and rebels alike. Edward De Valera learned Irish and changed his name to Eamon in 1910. After he met his wife Janet, there was no Irish version for her name , so they made one up for her; Sinéad. A new name was born.
Irish was really pushed by the new political elite after independence from Britain. It became essential for government jobs. It became mandatory in all schools within the state system. Anyone sitting the Leaving Cert through Irish got a boost in points allowing them to leapfrog over the completion for jobs and college places. I call that compulsion, not genuine enthusiasm.
I didn't know the name Sinéad was a new name, interesting.
I was referring to the more rapid growth in the Northern Ireland in recent years. I also think it's unfair to focus on people learning it in prison for political reasons, when this is a vanishingly small portion of the modern fluent speakers in both Ulster in general and in Northern Ireland in particular. Most of those who speak it Northern Ireland did not have this motivation.In the North there has been genuine enthusiasm among adult learners, especially while in prison, but that is all tied up with politics.
Oh, I was simply responding to it being mandatory in the Leaving Cert cycle. I don't particularly think it should be mandatory before that either.In regard to mandatory Irish in the Leaving Cert, why would anyone study the language for 12 years under compulsion and then not sit the final exam?0 -
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The point made that most of the children in Gaelscoileanna are the progeny of teachers and civilservants is true. Don't know what it proves really other than teachers see the value of them perhaps?0
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Sorry, I must have missed the economic boom in the wake of his protectionist polices. I thought it was the 60's before Ireland saw any noticable increase in commerce.Thats rubbish tbh. EVERY country practiced protectionism, they wanted to be protected against another wall street crash.
Ireland had a neo colonial economic relationship with Britain, the severing of those ties was a necessity. You make it sound like what Dev did was exclusive to Ireland, it was not. Nearly every country encouraged self sufficiency and employed protectionist policies.
It was bad economically for Ireland to rely solely on one country. The tie had to be broken, a prime example of a developing economy which has employed similar actions more recently is Brazil. Ireland was exporting raw materials and importing finished goods. That will not help an economy develop. Protectionism was an economic necessity in my opinion.
Btw, we now import a lot of green bananas and export yellow ones, great. Ireland is still TOTALLY and UTTERLY dependent on FOREIGN companies for our modest prosperity...so went went from a dependence on the brits to a dependence on (mostly) the yanks...0 -
Sorry, I must have missed the economic boom in the wake of his protectionist polices. I thought it was the 60's before Ireland saw any noticable increase in commerce.
Btw, we now import a lot of green bananas and export yellow ones, great. Ireland is still TOTALLY and UTTERLY dependent on FOREIGN companies for our modest prosperity...so went went from a dependence on the brits to a dependence on (mostly) the yanks...
Plenty want an increase in the numbers doing JC and LC Mandarin, seeming to want us to be dependant on another state. Globalisation isn't good for small fry like us.0 -
Let's face it, we're all better off speaking English. So would any other country in the world.
We should be grateful for it. Think of all the films, tv shows, books, internet boards, migration opportunities, etc. we would all MISS (or we'd get dubbed in the case of films/tv shows) if we didn't have English as our first language.
There's no point in Irish. Every effort made on its part is a complete and utter waste of time and money.0 -
SuperInfinity wrote: »Let's face it, we're all better off speaking English. So would any other country in the world.
We should be grateful for it. Think of all the films, tv shows, books, internet boards, migration opportunities, etc. we would all MISS (or we'd get dubbed in the case of films/tv shows) if we didn't have English as our first language.
There's no point in Irish. Every effort made on its part is a complete and utter waste of time and money.
Have you read the thread? This has been said before and answered before however to save you the bother of reading the thread i'll answer it again.
No one has suggested makeing Ireland an Irish only speaking country:rolleyes:
What we are suggesting is increasing the number of people who can speak both Irish and English. I dont think anyone has disputed that English is nessary for the economic future of this country. However saying that Irish is a waste of time says more about you than anything else. The majority of the people in this country want to be able to speak better Irish, So I cant see what is wrong or wastfull in teaching it in school.0 -
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SuperInfinity wrote: »Let's face it, we're all better off speaking English. So would any other country in the world.
We should be grateful for it. Think of all the films, tv shows, books, internet boards, migration opportunities, etc. we would all MISS (or we'd get dubbed in the case of films/tv shows) if we didn't have English as our first language.
There's no point in Irish. Every effort made on its part is a complete and utter waste of time and money.
Sure we might as well cede our sovereignty to Germany, or else we'll miss out on their more effective economical and political system. It's a matter of independence and identity.
No one's saying we shouldn't have English as an official language though.0 -
Sorry, I must have missed the economic boom in the wake of his protectionist polices. I thought it was the 60's before Ireland saw any noticable increase in commerce.
Btw, we now import a lot of green bananas and export yellow ones, great. Ireland is still TOTALLY and UTTERLY dependent on FOREIGN companies for our modest prosperity...so went went from a dependence on the brits to a dependence on (mostly) the yanks...
Yes we along whit moast of the rest of the world are dependant on America. You make it sound like there was an economic boom in the rest of the world.:rolleyes: I thing blameing DeV for our current dependance on forign investment is a bit of a leap in logic.0 -
That's a very big claim to make and an even bigger jump to go from a majority wanting to be able to speak it to a majority supporting the amount of time and money spent on it in school.deise go deo wrote: »Have you read the thread? This has been said before and answered before however to save you the bother of reading the thread i'll answer it again.
No one has suggested makeing Ireland an Irish only speaking country:rolleyes:
What we are suggesting is increasing the number of people who can speak both Irish and English. I dont think anyone has disputed that English is nessary for the economic future of this country. However saying that Irish is a waste of time says more about you than anything else. The majority of the people in this country want to be able to speak better Irish, So I cant see what is wrong or wastfull in teaching it in school.0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »The majority of the people in this country want to be able to speak better Irish, So I cant see what is wrong or wastfull in teaching it in school.
Which explains perfectly why Irish people have been consistently abandoning the language over the course of the last 150 years or so. If you want to make sweeping assertions like that, you will have to demonstrate why your assertion is true despite the obvious evidence against it.
Look, there are two distinct views on education here. The first is that education plays an important role in establishing a society's cultural, religious, and nationalistic identity. The second is that education is merely a means to an end, and that is to obtain a well-paid job. Most people, including myself, are in the latter category. So it makes sense that being forced to study any subject which does not increase the likelihood of obtaining a job is seen ultimately as a waste of time. And yes, that include subjects like religion as well, which we have far too much of in schools these days.
It has been stated time, and time again that forced indoctrination doesn't work. Increasing the amount of time spent on teaching Irish in school just isn't realistic. There is a very simple solution here which ultimately satisfies everybody, and that is to make Irish an optional subject. Those who want their culture can have it, and those who prefer to spend more of their time on subjects like math and science can do so as well. Everybody should be happy with that compromise. The added bonus is that by not forcing Irish down people's throats, less people will hate the language, and more people will want to actually learn it.0 -
MysticalRain wrote: »Look, there are two distinct views on education here. The first is that education plays an important role in establishing a society's cultural, religious, and nationalistic identity. The second is that education is merely a means to an end, and that is to obtain a well-paid job. Most people, including myself, are in the latter category.
That's a high philistinic view. For your talk of "forced indoctrination" you have no problem of putting children through a 'muder machine' system. Education should enlighten a person, not turn them into an economic tool.0 -
That's a high philistinic view. For your talk of "forced indoctrination" you have no problem of putting children through a 'muder machine' system. Education should enlighten a person, not turn them into an economic tool.
I'm not sure what you mean by "murder machine" system.
I have plenty of time for culture myself. Probably more so than most people in fact. But I never found much cultural value in the kind of antiquated education system that we have, which is still dominated by the Catholic Church and is tainted by narrow-minded nationalism and cultural myopia.0 -
MysticalRain wrote: »I'm not sure what you mean by "murder machine" system.
I have plenty of time for culture myself. Probably more so than most people in fact. But I never found much cultural value in the kind of antiquated education system that we have, which is still dominated by the Catholic Church and is tainted by narrow-minded nationalism and cultural myopia.
I was referring to Pearse's famous essay: http://www.cym.ie/documents/themurdermachine.pdf.
The teaching of Irish presently is not nationalistic, but rather completely devoid of any such life. It's taught as if it were a dead language to children who regard it as such. With serious -but not necessarily complex or expensive- reforms, Irish could have a more important place in our society.
Your comment on education being for jobs bothers me, though. I don't think any educational system can succeed with such views being as popular as they are.0 -
I was referring to Pearse's famous essay: http://www.cym.ie/documents/themurdermachine.pdf.
The teaching of Irish presently is not nationalistic, but rather completely devoid of any such life. It's taught as if it were a dead language to children who regard it as such. With serious -but not necessarily complex or expensive- reforms, Irish could have a more important place in our society.
Your comment on education being for jobs bothers me, though. I don't think any educational system can succeed with such views being as popular as they are.
Yes, but the motivation behind the language is rooted in nationalism, and that in itself is an obstacle to reforming the Irish education system into something that would serve the needs of people living in the 21st century.
There is plenty of time for learning about culture outside of education. The real learning only begins when you finish your education.0 -
MysticalRain wrote: »Which explains perfectly why Irish people have been consistently abandoning the language over the course of the last 150 years or so. If you want to make sweeping assertions like that, you will have to demonstrate why your assertion is true despite the obvious evidence against it.
Look, there are two distinct views on education here. The first is that education plays an important role in establishing a society's cultural, religious, and nationalistic identity. The second is that education is merely a means to an end, and that is to obtain a well-paid job. Most people, including myself, are in the latter category. So it makes sense that being forced to study any subject which does not increase the likelihood of obtaining a job is seen ultimately as a waste of time. And yes, that include subjects like religion as well, which we have far too much of in schools these days.
It has been stated time, and time again that forced indoctrination doesn't work. Increasing the amount of time spent on teaching Irish in school just isn't realistic. There is a very simple solution here which ultimately satisfies everybody, and that is to make Irish an optional subject. Those who want their culture can have it, and those who prefer to spend more of their time on subjects like math and science can do so as well. Everybody should be happy with that compromise. The added bonus is that by not forcing Irish down people's throats, less people will hate the language, and more people will want to actually learn it.
Accuse me of makeing sweeping asertations and then make one yourself:p
I think the main reason that Irish is in such a poor condition is mainly due to how it has been taught not due to a general hostility to it by the Irish people. You are of course compleatly right I did make a sweeping asertation without backing it up. I did this partly because I was frustrated by the post I was responding to and partly because this is something I have heard several times from both posters here and in newspapers, generally along the lines of such and such a survay shows that there is a general feeling of goodwill twords Irish from the people, as I am currently useing dial up:mad: I am not going to go looking for sources to back myself up now.
There are plenty of jobs that irish increases your likelyhood of getting. Teachers, civil cervants, business that operate through Irish( yes they do exist). I have never suggested increasing the amount of time spent on teaching Irish, I dont think its nessary, I believe that changing how Irish is taught within the current amount of time would drasticly improve peoples ability to speak the laungauge,
As for makeing Irish optional i'm not against it as a concept per ce but there are several questions I would have,
Do you suggest just makeing Irish as it is now optional, if you do I would certinaly not be happy. When would you suggest makeing it optional, from the start of primary school, start of secondary school or after the junier cert?
Personaly it is not my favourd solution, feel the best way forward is splitting Irish into two subjects, 1 That is compulsory that would be based around the basics, focused on bringing people up to a basic conversational standerd.
The other would be optional and would be similar to Highler level English that would be based around Potery, Literature and essays.
Oh and my personal view on the function of education is to expand a childs mind and bring them to a point where they are capable of educating themselves.0 -
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MysticalRain wrote: »Yes, but the motivation behind the language is rooted in nationalism, and that in itself is an obstacle to reforming the Irish education system into something that would serve the needs of people living in the 21st century.
Surely there's an acceptable level of nationalism, and surely wanting to speak your own language is not beyond it.
See the essay above for a critique of the notion of a 'modern' educational system.MysticalRain wrote: »There is plenty of time for learning about culture outside of education. The real learning only begins when you finish your education.
Again, see the essay. School breaks some people and I'm sure you've seen that personally. Putting a child through a factory mill and calling it an education will not endear them to such a sentiment as yours above.0 -
Most of those jobs don't require Irish in practical sense. Irish is only a "requirement" for artificial, bureaucratic reasons. There is ultimately no reason why a tax inspector from Revenue would have any reason to know Irish when most businesses in this country operate through English. Or why a teacher who teaches physics, not Irish, should have to learn it either. We might also improve the standard of teachers in this country, if we encouraged more non-nationals to join the profession by dropping antiquated barriers to entry.There are plenty of jobs that irish increases your likelyhood of getting. Teachers, civil cervants, business that operate through Irish( yes they do exist). I have never suggested increasing the amount of time spent on teaching Irish, I dont think its nessary, I believe that changing how Irish is taught within the current amount of time would drasticly improve peoples ability to speak the laungauge,
The single biggest problem with the way Irish is taught is forced indoctrination aspect of it. If you ended that, I can guarantee you Irish would instantly become more popular.
I would make it optional after primary school. I would change the primary school curriculum to involve less rote memorization, and place more focus on spoken Irish.As for makeing Irish optional i'm not against it as a concept per ce but there are several questions I would have,
Do you suggest just makeing Irish as it is now optional, if you do I would certinaly not be happy. When would you suggest makeing it optional, from the start of primary school, start of secondary school or after the junier cert?
Well in that sense I'm sure you would agree that the Irish education system as it presently stands is a miserable failure.Oh and my personal view on the function of education is to expand a childs mind and bring them to a point where they are capable of educating themselves.0 -
Irish is a language that people love or hate. I love it but can see why people hate it.
It was forced down our throats by teachers who should never have been allowed to teach.
For those who say we should get rid of it should we jst replace some of our history too.
Our language and history is what makes us what we are today. What happens today shapes the Ireland of the future. 0 -
MysticalRain wrote: »
I would make it optional after primary school. I would change the primary school curriculum to involve less rote memorization, and place more focus on spoken Irish.
That has been the case for the last ten years.
There is little rote learning, and there is a lot of focus on oral and aural work.0 -
Surely there's an acceptable level of nationalism, and surely wanting to speak your own language is not beyond it.
See the essay above for a critique of the notion of a 'modern' educational system.
Again, see the essay. School breaks some people and I'm sure you've seen that personally. Putting a child through a factory mill and calling it an education will not endear them to such a sentiment as yours above.
I'm sure there is. But it wouldn't involve shoving religion, nationalism, or the Irish language down peoples throats.
I don't have time to read Pearse's essay right now. But by the sounds of it, "murder machine" does sound like a good metaphor the failure of the Irish education system to teach the Irish language to successive generations of Irish schoolkids.0 -
MysticalRain wrote: »Most of those jobs don't require Irish in practical sense. Irish is only a "requirement" for artificial, bureaucratic reasons. There is ultimately no reason why a tax inspector from Revenue would have any reason to know Irish when most businesses in this country operate through English. Or why a teacher who teaches physics, not Irish, should have to learn it either. We might also improve the standard of teachers in this country, if we encouraged more non-nationals to join the profession by dropping antiquated barriers to entry.
The single biggest problem with the way Irish is taught is forced indoctrination aspect of it. If you ended that, I can guarantee you Irish would instantly become more popular.
I would make it optional after primary school. I would change the primary school curriculum to involve less rote memorization, and place more focus on spoken Irish.
Well in that sense I'm sure you would agree that the Irish education system as it presently stands is a miserable failure.
Yes but many of those jobs do require Irish in a practicle sence to. Primary school teachers, Irish teachers, A cinnaire(helper on an Irish sumer course, A job I hope to get next summer:D)
The reason that there is an Irish requirment for entery into the civil service is because people who wish to interact with the civil service through Irish have been given the right to do so by the goverment, do you beleive this opertunity should be denied to them?
Of course you cant guarantee this, And as for forced indoctrination, as a phrase I believe that has similar conotations to 'Brainwashing' which is along way from the reality of compulsory Irish in School.
What, out of intrest, is your feeling towards 'immersion' ie schools that teach exclusively through Irish. This as a system has been shown to be very succesful.
Personaly I would rather optional came in after the junior cert as I feel that the student would be more capable of makeing the decision for themselves at this point. As for the changes to the Primary school curriculum you suggested I would agree.
As for the failure of the education system, In relation to Irish I would agree whole heartidly, in relation to the system as a whole, it has its failings, I think the points system is fundamentaly unfair.0 -
Yes, but those are a minority of jobs within the civil service, nevermind the rest of the economy. It's clear from an economic point of view, that there is far too much time and effort placed on Irish for the amount of jobs available.Yes but many of those jobs do require Irish in a practicle sence to. Primary school teachers, Irish teachers, A cinnaire(helper on an Irish sumer course, A job I hope to get next summer)
I believe the civil service wastes enough taxpayers money as it is. In the current economic climate, that particular aspect of the civil service is probably ripe for reform and modernization. If somebody speaks perfect English, I don't see why they should be entitled to waste taxpayers money by demanding special treatment.The reason that there is an Irish requirment for entery into the civil service is because people who wish to interact with the civil service have been given the right to do so by the goverment, do you beleive this opertunity should be denied to them?
Forced indoctrination has everything to do with how Irish has been taught in schools. It's a dreadful way to teach a subject, and simply does not work. That's a point which has been brought up time and time again, and it seems to be lost on the pro-Irish crowd.Of course you cant guarantee this, And as for forced indoctrination, as a phrase I believe that has similar conotations to 'Brainwashing' which is along way from the reality of compulsory Irish in School.
Personally speaking, I would rather have kids immersed in maths, science, and technology so we can have a generation of kids coming up with the next Facebook or breakthrough in biotechnology. It also simply astounds me that in this day and age, Irish schoolkids still don't learn about information technology as a subject, and yet they spend vastly more time learning Irish. Ultimately it doesn't seem justified to me to build an entire school system around just one subject. Besides, it's not practical to have every primary school in the country teaching subjects through Irish. The money isn't there. Neither are there enough qualified teachers, and we are now living in a multicultural society where immigrants have enough problems learning English, nevermind having to learn another language on top of that.What, out of intrest, is your feeling towards 'immersion' ie schools that teach exclusively through Irish. This as a system has been shown to be very succesful.0 -
MysticalRain wrote: »Yes, but those are a minority of jobs within the civil service, nevermind the rest of the economy. It's clear from an economic point of view, that there is far too much time and effort placed on Irish for the amount of jobs available.
I believe the civil service wastes enough taxpayers money as it is. In the current economic climate, that particular aspect of the civil service is probably ripe for reform and modernization. If somebody speaks perfect English, I don't see why they should be entitled to waste taxpayers money by demanding special treatment.
Forced indoctrination has everything to do with how Irish has been taught in schools. It's a dreadful way to teach a subject, and simply does not work. That's a point which has been brought up time and time again, and it seems to be lost on the pro-Irish crowd.
Personally speaking, I would rather have kids immersed in maths, science, and technology so we can have a generation of kids coming up with the next Facebook or breakthrough in biotechnology. It also simply astounds me that in this day and age, Irish schoolkids still don't learn about information technology as a subject, and yet they spend vastly more time learning Irish. Ultimately it doesn't seem justified to me to build an entire school system around just one subject. Besides, it's not practical to have every primary school in the country teaching subjects through Irish. The money isn't there. Neither are there enough qualified teachers, and we are now living in a multicultural society where immigrants have enough problems learning English, nevermind having to learn another language on top of that.
Yes but again that makes the assumption that the sole purpose of education is to serve the economy, this is your opinion and I respect that but as I have said I disagree with that interpretation.
These people are not looking for special treatment, they just want equal treatment with English speakers. Someting that is supported in artical 8 of the constution.
Again you believe the problem is the compulsory aspect, I belive that the problem is the terrible teaching methods. I'm suggesting changing how its done, until this is actually done we cant know it wont work.
Teaching history through maths? Its an intresting concept i'll give you that. Not sure how it would work though.Why dont you think its justified? demand currently outstrips supply for it at the moment. I'm not suggesting turning every primary school into a Gaelscoil. As you said there isent enough teachers. I was just asking your opinion on those that are already there.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Yes but again that makes the assumption that the sole purpose of education is to serve the economy, this is your opinion and I respect that but as I have said I disagree with that interpretation.
These people are not looking for special treatment, they just want equal treatment with English speakers. Someting that is supported in artical 8 of the constution.
Again you believe the problem is the compulsory aspect, I belive that the problem is the terrible teaching methods. I'm suggesting changing how its done, until this is actually done we cant know it wont work.
Teaching history through maths? Its an intresting concept i'll give you that. Not sure how it would work though.Why dont you think its justified? demand currently outstrips supply for it at the moment. I'm not suggesting turning every primary school into a Gaelscoil. As you said there isent enough teachers. I was just asking your opinion on those that are already there.
That's not an assumption. That's reality. You can't run a country just on some vague notion of culture. There might be some cultural aspects to education, but the ultimate goal of an education system is to create a productive workforce. Right now we have an education system that is more geared towards educating conservative-minded government bureaucrats than the kind of innovative entrepreneurs, scientists and engineers that would be more useful for our so-called smart economy.
Maybe you think improved teaching methods might help the Irish language, although I would fundamentally disagree. But in this day and age, there is no justification for compulsory Irish.
I don't mean teaching history through maths. I meant designing a school system that revolves around around science and technology rather than religion and Irish.0 -
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MysticalRain wrote: »That's not an assumption. That's reality. You can't run a country just on some vague notion of culture. There might be some cultural aspects to education, but the ultimate goal of an education system is to create a productive workforce. Right now we have an education system that is more geared towards educating conservative-minded government bureaucrats than the kind of innovative entrepreneurs, scientists and engineers that would be more useful for our so-called smart economy.
Maybe you think improved teaching methods might help the Irish language, although I would fundamentally disagree. But in this day and age, there is no justification for compulsory Irish.
I don't mean teaching history through maths. I meant designing a school system that revolves around around science and technology rather than religion and Irish.
Well where is that written? The view I have put forward on the function of education comes from a 17 century prussian schollar, Hagel.
I dont believe the funcution of education is to teach some nationalistic cultural identity, as I said I believe that it is to expand the childs mind and bring them to a point that they can continue their own education.
The education system dosent revolve around religion and Irish. there is only 2 classes of religion per week and there is the same amount of time given to maths as there is to irish and english. So why are you focusing on Irish, surely english potery or shakespear is just as useless to the smart econemy?
What is the economic rational for teaching history? There arent many jobs in that either.
Why do you fundamentaly disagree that improved teaching would lead to improved understanding of Irish?0
This discussion has been closed.
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