Is Irish a dead language?

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So if someone said to you "Ah, Iwasfrozen, I had a great time over in Dun na nGall, was lovely" You would stop talking to them? Why? This to me appears highly OTT, small and petty. It reeks of an irrational hatred for a language.

I don't hate irish. I would do the same thing if someone told me they were in Moskva, Koln or Roma.

There is no rational reason to use the irish name of a place when both people are fluent englsih speakers. The only reasons I can think off that a person would do this is political. And there is no place for such strong politics in petty chit-chat.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Well I completely disagree.

Why?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Well for historical reasons mainly. But mostly I think that either or is fine.

What historical reasons? Why do you think either is fine? If you were talking to somebody you knew didn't like using irish names would you still use them.

I must say your begining to sound a lot like my Irish teacher who instited using the irish name for our town.

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't hate irish. I would do the same thing if someone told me they were in Moskva, Koln or Roma.

So people only have permission to use english names around you or else you wont talk to them? Ridiculous.

There is no rational reason to use the irish name of a place when both people are fluent englsih speakers. The only reasons I can think off that a person would do this is political. And there is no place for such strong politics in petty chit-chat.

Many people, myself included,use the two names interchangeably. I see nothing wrong with that, and do not do it purposefully. One could argue that insisting on using english names is an even bigger political statement.

Why?

A place name is a place name. Both are valid. It is not as if I am saying something which no one will understand, everyone knows Irish place names, they are everywhere, on signs, maps etc

What historical reasons? Why do you think either is fine? If you were talking to somebody you knew didn't like using irish names would you still use them.

I use them without thinking about it really. In may cases the Irish name was the original etc etc

I must say your begining to sound a lot like my Irish teacher who instited using the irish name for our town.

Fair play to the guy, the Irish name is just as valid.

deise go deo

No one is saying that you must use the Irish version of a placename so why do you insist that other people use the English version

Surely it a matter of personal choice, If I put Ring, Co Waterford on a letter it will get where it is going, If I put An Rinn, Co Port Láirge on a letter it will still get to where it is going, Both are valid,
Why do you have a problem with this?

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't hate irish. I would do the same thing if someone told me they were in Moskva, Koln or Roma.

There is no rational reason to use the irish name of a place when both people are fluent englsih speakers. The only reasons I can think off that a person would do this is political. And there is no place for such strong politics in petty chit-chat.

That's bollocks.

People use the Irish version of place names all the time, without any political motivation. One example here in Waterford is "Déise".

If someone uses the Irish version of a place name, and you decided to not to talk to them based on that - I'd say that's about as childish as it comes.

Infact - the only person getting political, by turning their back to someone who uses the Irish version of a placename, is you.

dlofnep

deise go deo wrote: »

Why do you have a problem with this?

The only person who would have a problem with it, is someone with an irrational chip on their shoulder.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So people only have permission to use english names around you or else you wont talk to them? Ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous to expect people to use english words when speaking english? It is nothing but pure rudeness on your behalf to push your agenda on people without knowing their position.

Maybe I was a bit strong when I said I would just ignore a person who insisted on using irish place names when speaking english. In truth I have never encountered a normal person who does that. Only my old irish teacher but I was used to him after six years so I didn't pass any notice.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Many people, myself included,use the two names interchangeably. I see nothing wrong with that, and do not do it purposefully. One could argue that insisting on using english names is an even bigger political statement.

Insisting a person uses english words when speaking english is not a political statement. It's common sense. And I very much so doubt that many people do it. Like I say the only person I've ever encountered was my old irish teacher and he was certainly politically motivated. To say the least.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

A place name is a place name. Both are valid. It is not as if I am saying something which no one will understand, everyone knows Irish place names, they are everywhere, on signs, maps etc

1. No, a place name is not a place name. I do not speak of Roma, Napoli or Koln in english so I don't expect people to speak of Beal Atha Cliath or Na Gaillimhe. In Irish, fine. I can appreciate that these are the irish language names for these places but they are not english language names.
2. Again no, not everybody in Ireland understands place names. I will use dlofnep's example of below. I didn't know that the irish of Waterford was Deise. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. You shouldn't make the assumption that everybody in Ireland understands these terms. That is simply not true.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I use them without thinking about it really. In may cases the Irish name was the original etc etc

So?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Fair play to the guy, the Irish name is just as valid.

I've already explained why I don't believe this to be the case. Can you now explain why you do?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

No one is saying that you must use the Irish version of a placename so why do you insist that other people use the English version

Because when speaking english to me the least I think I can expect is that the person uses english words.

deise go deo wrote: »

Surely it a matter of personal choice, If I put Ring, Co Waterford on a letter it will get where it is going, If I put An Rinn, Co Port Láirge on a letter it will still get to where it is going, Both are valid,
Why do you have a problem with this?

You really shouldn't point out a government body as an example. It would be pretty hypocritical if An Phost turned down letters adressed in irish.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

People use the Irish version of place names all the time, without any political motivation. One example here in Waterford is "Déise".

Who uses it? Certainly not normal people.

dlofnep wrote: »

If someone uses the Irish version of a place name, and you decided to not to talk to them based on that - I'd say that's about as childish as it comes.

Oh for God's sake I was exaggerating when I said that.As I've said before it's not really an issue because I've never met a person who uses irish place names but if I did I wouldn't physically walk away from the person but I would keep my distance in future. Mindful that they are politically motivated and we probably won't get on.

dlofnep wrote: »

Infact - the only person getting political, by turning their back to someone who uses the Irish version of a placename, is you.

That's right, a person who insistes on bringing nationalism into the monday morning watercooler conversation is not politically motivated. :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

The only person who would have a problem with it, is someone with an irrational chip on their shoulder.

That's a very bold statement to make. I look forward to your attempts to prove it.

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why is it ridiculous to expect people to use english words when speaking english? It is nothing but pure rudeness on your behalf to push your agenda on people without knowing their position.

You seem to have quite the agenda yourself. You are making yourself out to be some sort of grammar Nazi type guy.

Maybe I was a bit strong when I said I would just ignore a person who insisted on using irish place names when speaking english. In truth I have never encountered a normal person who does that. Only my old irish teacher but I was used to him after six years so I didn't pass any notice.

I assure you, many do. I do and would consider myself normal.

Insisting a person uses english words when speaking english is not a political statement. It's common sense. And I very much so doubt that many people do it. Like I say the only person I've ever encountered was my old irish teacher and he was certainly politically motivated. To say the least.

No its not, it is just pedantic and daft. Both names are valid, they are the same place, they are both on signs.

1. No, a place name is not a place name. I do not speak of Roma, Napoli or Koln in english so I don't expect people to speak of Beal Atha Cliath or Na Gaillimhe. In Irish, fine. I can appreciate that these are the irish language names for these places but they are not english language names.

   But they do. You want them to stop? Crime of the century!

2. Again no, not everybody in Ireland understands place names. I will use dlofnep's example of below. I didn't know that the irish of Waterford was Deise. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. You shouldn't make the assumption that everybody in Ireland understands these terms. That is simply not true.

   Thats cause it ain't.

I've already explained why I don't believe this to be the case. Can you now explain why you do?

Both names are on road signs, maps etc etc. Nearly everyone accepts the Irish terms as place names, hence they are just as valid. I honestly am boggled that you are persuing this line. Your hatred of Irish is surfacing now to the extent that yo wont accept people using Irish place names when talking to you. Daft.

I've never met a person who uses irish place names but if I did I wouldn't physically walk away from the person but I would keep my distance in future

LOL! And you say you do not have a chip on your shoulder?

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

You seem to have quite the agenda yourself. You are making yourself out to be some sort of grammar Nazi type guy.

Are you saying that I have an agenda to be a grammar nazi? What?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I assure you, many do. I do and would consider myself normal.

Very much in the minority however.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No its not, it is just pedantic and daft. Both names are valid, they are the same place, they are both on signs.

Both names are valid. But only in their respective languages. There is nothing daft about expecting people to use english words when speaking english.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But they do. You want them to stop? Crime of the century!
Thats cause it ain't

.

Well done for selecting one section of my paragraph and responding to it.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Both names are on road signs, maps etc etc. Nearly everyone accepts the Irish terms as place names,hence they are just as valid.

They are only valid in their language. And again you are making wide sweeping statements that you can't back up by saying "Nearly everyone accepts the Irish terms as place names". If you can't prove this to be true why say it?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I honestly am boggled that you are persuing this line

So are you.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Your hatred of Irish is surfacing now to the extent that yo wont accept people using Irish place names when talking to you. Daft.

As i said in the paragraph you ignored:

Iwasfrozen wrote:

I do not speak of Roma, Napoli or Koln in english so I don't expect people to speak of Beal Atha Cliath or Na Gaillimhe.

I do not have a hatred of the irish language. I do not like it when people drop in irish words for purely politicaly reasons. And make no mistake about it. The gaelgeoirs that do this type of thing are politically motivated.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

LOL! And you say you do not have a chip on your shoulder?

No, but it would set off alarm bells in my head that this person is a gaelgeoir and that I will probably at some stage end up having this conversation with him/her in real life. Some thing I want to avoid.

Barr

Had to do Irish up until my Leaving Cert - never used it since.

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you saying that I have an agenda to be a grammar nazi? What?

Basically you are being an pedantic daft and unnecessary. English only please!

Very much in the minority however.

I do not think so. Maybe were you live but not elsewhere.

Both names are valid. But only in their respective languages. There is nothing daft about expecting people to use english words when speaking english.

Throw out the words which have Greek and Latin roots then.

Well done for selecting one section of my paragraph and responding to it.

I await the medal.

They are only valid in their language. And again you are making wide sweeping statements that you can't back up by saying "Nearly everyone accepts the Irish terms as place names". If you can't prove this to be true why say it?

Very much in the minority however

Hmmmmmmmm kettle? Pot?

So are you.

What? Dont think that made sense.

As i said in the paragraph you ignored:

I do not have a hatred of the irish language. I do not like it when people drop in irish words for purely politicaly reasons. And make no mistake about it. The gaelgeoirs that do this type of thing are politically motivated

.
I do not think people do it for political reasons at all. I certainly don't it just feels natural.

No, but it would set off alarm bells in my head that this person is a gaelgeoir and that I will probably at some stage end up having this conversation with him/her in real life. Some thing I want to avoid.

Not so, not everyone who does it is a gaelgoir.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Basically you are being an pedantic daft and unnecessary. English only please!

You think it is unnecessary or even daft to use english words when speaking english?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I do not think so. Maybe were you live but not elsewhere.

Again your making assumptions you cannot back up. Why would you claim something that you can't prove?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Throw out the words which have Greek and Latin roots then.

No, becasue they are english words. They may have their roots in another language but unlike "An Cabhán" they are recognised english words.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What? Dont think that made sense.

you are persuing the same line as me.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I do not think people do it for political reasons at all. I certainly don't it just feels natural.

How can it possibly be natural to speak in a language other then your native language?

Wolfe Tone

Again your making assumptions you cannot back up. Why would you claim something that you can't prove?

Just going to address this piece of hypocritical pedantry. You are doing the same.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Just going to address this piece of hypocritical pedantry. You are doing the same.

Doing the same in what?

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Doing the same in what?

making assumptions you cannot back up. Why would you claim something that you can't prove

This.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

This.

So you admit to making sweeping assertions?

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you admit to making sweeping assertions?

Do you?



Oh isn't this clever and fun!

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Do you?

You already have.

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You already have.

That answered my question.


I tire of this. This is stupid.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

That answered my question.


I tire of this. This is stupid.

Your right. It is.

Iwasfrozen

Barr wrote: »

Had to do Irish up until my Leaving Cert - never used it since.

This is simply the bottom line when it comes to education however. The vast majority of students will never need to use irish after doing their leaving cert. It proves that the vast quantities spent on irish would be better directed in other areas.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You think it is unnecessary or even daft to use english words when speaking english?


Again your making assumptions you cannot back up. Why would you claim something that you can't prove?


No, becasue they are english words. They may have their roots in another language but unlike "An Cabhán" they are recognised english words.


you are persuing the same line as me.


How can it possibly be natural to speak in a language other then your native language?

Déise is a name for Waterford, It a GAA nickname along the same lines as Kerry is 'The Kingdom' So do you beleive the thousands of people shouting Come on the Déise at the recent munster final are abnormal?
The offical Irish name for Waterford is Port Láirge btw.

Yet An Cabhán is a recognised placename.

As for the line I have highlighed, He has already stated that he uses them normally in his everyday conversations. If he has used them to the point that he uses them interchangiably then they are natural to him, whats not to understand?????????


You have stated several times that the only people who do this, do so for political reasons. What reasons would these be?

Wolfe Tone

Thought Port Láirge was waterford? My bad.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Who uses it? Certainly not normal people.

I'm sorry, but since when did you get to decide who's normal and who isn't? You know you're argument is piss-weak when you're resulting to using ad hominems.

Normal people use "Déise" here in Waterford. There is nothing abnormal about using Irish language placenames, nor is there anything abnormal about using the Irish language.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh for God's sake I was exaggerating when I said that.As I've said before it's not really an issue because I've never met a person who uses irish place names but if I did I wouldn't physically walk away from the person but I would keep my distance in future. Mindful that they are politically motivated and we probably won't get on.

What was that you said about sweeping statements? I've already pointed out that using the Irish language does not have to be political. You're demonstrating a very close-minded view.

dlofnep

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Thought Port Láirge was waterford? My bad.

Port Láirge is Waterford, but "An Déise" is also used in terms of the area, as the original settlers here were called the Decies. So Waterford is colloquially known as the Deíse.

P. Breathnach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

... There is nothing daft about expecting people to use english words when speaking english....

There is something daft about expecting people to use only English words.

English, like any language, has vocabulary that has been adopted from other languages, and that is a continuing process. When using English I often use words or phrases from other languages, words that are arguably not yet incorporated into English.

When using English in the company of people who know Irish, I might use a word or phrase from Irish if it seems to me to represent the idea I wish to convey better than any English expression that might come to mind.

tolosenc

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Immersion is what's critical, and why should we choose one of French/German/Spanish/etc. over the others when we have Irish whose beauty is that it is irrelevant on an international level? Learning a language for the language's sake. Children who are bilingual, in any 2 languages(studies show that the more divergent the better - and there are few languages in Europe more different to English than Irish), find it easier to add 3rd and sunsequent languages to their repetoirs. Thus, when the introduction to European languages is done at secondary level, the children naturally switch between 2 languages all the time. It may also be better to learn more convergent languages (English to most modern european languages) after the age of at least 10(I'm not saying not to raise a kid bilingually if you marry a Spaniard, on the contrary, to not do so is almost unfair to the child).

Soldie wrote: »

Why?

Because it is very easy and inexpensive to achieve and only serves to benefit the community as a whole. Please, point out to me a down side that you can think of.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I disagree. I often use both english and Irish place names, I like to mix it up


The Irish name is just as valid as the english, if not more so.

And when watching the BBC and they refer to something as having happend in "Éire", that's good too, is it? A language is more than a set of words and rules. Use the conventions of the language you are speaking. If you're speaking French for example, don't tell someone that something is "20 minutes de London" as that is not the convention, but rather "30km de Londres".

dlofnep

IWasFrozen - Out of curiosity, have you ever heard the term "cest la vie"?