Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I never used the word 'politics', so I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion.

The issue is why people whose original language is English, decide to adopt Irish.

Iwasfrozen makes the claim that anyone who uses the Irish version over the English dose it because they are politicly motivatied, In responce I said that in that case the reverse must also be true.
I personaly dont believe that it has anything to do with politics.

The issue is wether or not Irish is dead, or at least it was before we went down this nonsencial path.

eddyc

deise go deo wrote: »

Iwasfrozen makes the claim that anyone who uses the Irish version over the English dose it because they are politicly motivatied, In responce I said that in that case the reverse must also be true.
I personaly dont believe that it has anything to do with politics.

The issue is wether or not Irish is dead, or at least it was before we went down this nonsencial path.

It is interesting though that after 100 years of state sponsored de-anglicisation that the majority of people still have not taken up the language, it calls into question the validity of that government policy in the first place.
It's now blatantly obvious that the Irish didn't need to be forcibly differentiated from the british to achieve independence.

deise go deo

eddyc wrote: »

It is interesting though that after 100 years of state sponsored de-anglicisation that the majority of people still have not taken up the language, it calls into question the validity of that government policy in the first place.

I would argue that is because of the implemintation of that policy rather than the policy itself.

It's now blatantly obvious that the Irish didn't need to be forcibly differentiated from the british to achieve independence.

You make the assumption that this is the only reason to learn the language.

So what would you like to see hapen then?

eddyc

deise go deo wrote: »

I would argue that is because of the implemintation of that policy rather than the policy itself.




You make the assumption that this is the only reason to learn the language.

So what would you like to see hapen then?

I have no problem with people learning the language and I have no problem with some government support for people learning it if they want to, there should definitely be courses in primary and secondary school. I do have a problem with the state mandate that Irish should be learned by all compulsorily because its 'our culture', which is a bit of a loaded statement to put it mildly.

deise go deo

eddyc wrote: »

I have no problem with people learning the language and I have no problem with some government support for people learning it if they want to, there should definitely be courses in primary and secondary school. I do have a problem with the state mandate that Irish should be learned by all compulsorily because its 'our culture', which is a bit of a loaded statement to put it mildly.

So what would you like to see it changed to?
Can I ask why you would question it being 'Our' culture?

eddyc

I'd have it optional like German and French are at secondary,
As for the 'our' culture , firstly, I don't think there can be one homogenous national culture anymore. Secondly, cultures come and go, there was a culture that existed in Ireland where they didn't speak Irish, then they did, then some spoke Norse, then French, then English, now most speak English. There is no mistake here that needs to be 'fixed.' We have moved on.

deise go deo

eddyc wrote: »

I'd have it optional like German and French are at secondary,

Well this raises several questions,
At what point do you want it to become optional?
Would you change how it is tought or just make it optional as it is now.

As for the 'our' culture , firstly, I don't think there can be one homogenous national culture anymore. Secondly, cultures come and go, there was a culture that existed in Ireland where they didn't speak Irish, then they did, then some spoke Norse, then French, then English, now most speak English. There is no mistake here that needs to be 'fixed.' We have moved on.

So then can I ask do you believe Ireland or anywhere has a 'Culture' and if you do what would you concider to be part of it?

eddyc

I don't know anything about pedagogy but I think that it should be compulsory for a year with other languages and then the student could choose one, I think it should be thought in the most effective way that exists that we can afford and is feasible, the most effective age included.
Of course there is culture, movies, music, tv, food, language, customs. In older times it was easy to say you like Irish music, spoke Irish, used Irish customs because they were all that were available to you. It is a lot more complicated now though isn't it? One can speak many different languages, like music and food from all over the world, have a summer house in Italy etc. At the same time we share a multicultural culture if you will with the U.S, European countries etc. It's a lot harder to pin down as the differences between nations get smaller.

deise go deo

eddyc wrote: »

I don't know anything about pedagogy but I think that it should be compulsory for a year with other languages and then the student could choose one,

So would you include English in that?
In this system students would only learn one language, As it is now many learn more than one. As many Universitys require a moderan European langauge this would be quite a disincentive to learn Irish.

I think it should be thought in the most effective way that exists that we can afford and is feasible, the most effective age included.

Well the moast effictive way that I know of is Immerision.
The moast cost effective is not to teach it at all both are arguably feasible.
So which end of the scale would you be on?

Of course there is culture, movies, music, tv, food, language, customs. In older times it was easy to say you like Irish music, spoke Irish, used Irish customs because they were all that were available to you. It is a lot more complicated now though isn't it? One can speak many different languages, like music and food from all over the world, have a summer house in Italy etc. At the same time we share a multicultural culture if you will with the U.S, European countries etc. It's a lot harder to pin down as the differences between nations get smaller.

So do you equate more choice with makeing Irish less relevant or worthy of learning. I agree that multiculturalism makes what exactly our culture is, more complicated but I dont feel it diminishes the place of Irish in our culture.

eddyc

I don't want to talk about schooling because I don't know anything about that.

On Irish being important to our culture, thats a subjective statement. English is part of mine, its a perfectly good language, why should I want to learn another?
In my opinion more people should learn musical instruments. it's a very enjoyable and rewarding hobby, one can have a genre of music native to where you come from etc. I don't think the government should make everybody do it however.
There are people who put the language on a pedestal as if it was the most important thing about being Irish, is this because its called Irish who knows???

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

the_monkey

Dead as a doornail, Fascist methods in teaching it..

My kid cousin has spent months in the Gaelteacht(sp) - I said to her parents "wouldn't she be better off going to France or Spain ??"

Not appreciated of course, but seriously she would be practically fluent
in a USEFULL language, she may as well learn Klingon at least that way you could get a job at a Star Trek center in Las Vegas!.

Kids who speak english in the Gaelteacht are sent home- even if they are speaking it socially with their friends - FASCISTS!!

Would Spanish kids who are here to learn english be sent home if they
were speaking Spanish amongst their mates ??

I think not.

Enkidu

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You could legitimately argue that it is difficult, but impossible?
There are several towns in Mayo, Galway, Kerry and Cork where it is possible to hear people speak it as the day to day language. The whole Cois Fharraige* region as well.

Of course, I'm not saying children should be sent off to these places, since I don't think the language should be compulsory. However I believe your assertion is incorrect.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

An old language that used to spoken widely here, that is still spoken by some number over one hundred thousand (the exact number is difficult to measure due to biased statistics). I don't believe that people should have to speak it or that it should be taught, however I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here.

*The only reason I'm using the Irish here is that I'm not aware of Cois Fharraige having an English name.

deise go deo

the_monkey wrote: »

Dead as a doornail, Fascist methods in teaching it..

Irish has been shown not to be dead by the definition of what a dead language is, If you want to make up your own definition of what a dead language is then by all means:rolleyes:

My kid cousin has spent months in the Gaelteacht(sp) - I said to her parents "wouldn't she be better off going to France or Spain ??"

SO what did they say?

Not appreciated of course, but seriously she would be practically fluent
in a USEFULL language, she may as well learn Klingon at least that way you could get a job at a Star Trek center in Las Vegas!.

As opposed to the many jobs avaiable that require Irish.

Kids who speak english in the Gaelteacht are sent home- even if they are speaking it socially with their friends - FASCISTS!!

Would Spanish kids who are here to learn english be sent home if they
were speaking Spanish amongst their mates ??

I think not.

Please do not throw about such abusive words as Fasists, there is no need.
Kids who go to the gaelthacht do so to learn Irish. Most courses have rules regarding the use of English while you are there, these rules are there in the intrest of helping the student to learn Irish. these students are made fully aware of these rules before they go and when they arrive, If they choose to break the rules, well thats their fault isent it?

I mean where would we be if we dident have rules, Thats right France:D

dlofnep

the_monkey wrote: »

Dead as a doornail, Fascist methods in teaching it..

My kid cousin has spent months in the Gaelteacht(sp) - I said to her parents "wouldn't she be better off going to France or Spain ??"

Not appreciated of course, but seriously she would be practically fluent
in a USEFULL language, she may as well learn Klingon at least that way you could get a job at a Star Trek center in Las Vegas!.

Kids who speak english in the Gaelteacht are sent home- even if they are speaking it socially with their friends - FASCISTS!!

Would Spanish kids who are here to learn english be sent home if they
were speaking Spanish amongst their mates ??

I think not.

Kids attend gaeltachtaí with prior understanding that using the English language will affect their immersion experience, and know that by using it - it's not only affecting their immersion, but also the kids who they are speaking to.

So how exactly is it fascism if they voluntarily attend the Gaeltacht camps? More hysteria. It's getting hilarious as this point.

P. Breathnach

Enkidu wrote: »

... The only reason I'm using the Irish here is that I'm not aware of Cois Fharraige having an English name.

Many of the participants in this discussion don't truly care about such things, and are working hard in order to make petty points (I like "petty points"; it sounds like we are discussing embroidery).

You have options:

• call it Kusharraga
• call it Seaside
• call it that bit of south Connemara running from arguably, Barna or Forbo or Spiddal west as far as Carna or maybe Cashel.

Valmont

the_monkey wrote: »

Kids who speak english in the Gaelteacht are sent home- even if they are speaking it socially with their friends

Funny you should say that. I attended a gaelteacht summer camp when I was twelve. I was sent home after three warnings- one of which was for speaking English with my friends after a game of football. Looking back, it's no surprise I have no time for Irish!

dlofnep

Valmont wrote: »

Funny you should say that. I attended a gaelteacht summer camp when I was twelve. I was sent home after three warnings- one of which was for speaking English with my friends after a game of football. Looking back, it's no surprise I have no time for Irish!

Just curious as why you went. In my school, scholarships to the Gaeltacht were reserved for those who did well in Irish and were enthusiastic about it.

But some gaeltachtaí are overly-strict for sure, and it can be off-putting. But I can understand the principle behind it. Immersion can't be half-arsed. It really hinders progression.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

fearbainne

I was down in ceathrú rua ther in June , it was my first experience of being in one of the colleges in the gaeltacht and I absolutely loved it. I dont think the Irish language is dying at all, in fact its thriving in these places..

If your going to speak English in the Gaeltacht why bother paying the 800 or whatever euro going? I think ther damn right to send you home if you do it, however i do believe young children shouldn't be sent as they might not appreciate the language as much, and as has been said will resent the fact they are being forced to speak the language. Perhaps adult courses should be made available in these gaeltacht colleges, for those who appreciate and want to learn the language.

To say that the Irish language is dead is as good as pissin on the graves of our ancestors who fought and died to preserve the culture and heritage of this country and tell them it was all for nothing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

eddyc

Fear bainne, do you believe it is an Irish citizens patriotic duty to learn and speak Irish?

Enkidu

I have no trouble with people who wish to continue to speak Irish. I do have a problem with people who demand millions in state subsidies, and co-opt thousands of hours of schoolchildren's time, to sustain a pretense.

That's perfectly fair.

donegalfella wrote: »

That's not true linguistic immersion, though. Imagine thinking of Paris as a place where it is still possible to encounter a few snatches of conversation in French, and you'll see the ludicrousness of the situation.

I don't fully understand why it's not "true" linguistic immersion. If everybody around you is speaking in French/Irish/Spanish/etc, then you are immersed in the language.

Unless I'm missing something I don't understand, I think your pulling a "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Here are towns where people speak the language, you can also speak to other people in urban areas if you wish, however apparently this is not "true" immersion. Even though it would count as immersion to any linguist, in fact it is how several Celtic studies departments (Notre Dame, Brittany, ..) immerse their students.

As I said perhaps I am missing something, what would you define as true immersion?

A language that hasn't been the primary language of this island since about the time of the American Revolutionary War!

And? I never said it was a major part of our culture. However considering that a vast amount of our pre-18th century literature is written in it and that at least 100,000 people speak it today, then I don't understand why it wouldn't be part of our culture.
Maybe it's just a choice of words and I should say it's a feature of a subculture.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Wrong, it was the majority language of this Island in 1830. It wasn't until the 1841 census did it become a minority language, with 4 million speaking it out of 8.1 million.

After the famine and anti-Irish policies in educational systems - that number was quartered within a generation.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't have a problem with state support, and it being a cornerstone of our education. So now what?

fearbainne

eddyc wrote: »

Fear bainne, do you believe it is an Irish citizens patriotic duty to learn and speak Irish?

I wouldn't go that far eddyc but i think a certain amount of respect is due to the language... I mean people have died speaking it, and people have died to ensure it was kept alive

eddyc

fearbainne wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far eddyc but i think a certain amount of respect is due to the language... I mean people have died speaking it, and people have died to ensure it was kept alive

They fought for many different reasons, I think the main ones were home rule and a free state, I don't mean to sound harsh here but if someone fights and dies to speak a language I think I should have the right to not care. But not in Ireland ,we all must speak the language they died for shouldn't we.

fearbainne

eddyc wrote: »

They fought for many different reasons, I think the main ones were home rule and a free state, I don't mean to sound harsh here but if someone fights and dies to speak a language I think I should have the right to not care. But not in Ireland ,we all must speak the language they died for shouldn't we.

I never said you didnt have that right eddyc, in fact the same people im talkin about fought so you could think whatever the hell you want.. I couldn't care less if you dont want to learn the language, i just feel, and let me stress that this is only my opinion, that the language should be given a bit more respect than some people are giving it here...

Its the official language of this country so I feel it should be compulsary at schools, in fact i believe that if primary teachers were more capable speakers and teachers of the language, and put more of an emphasis on teaching it we could see a huge growth in the language all over the country..

eddyc

fearbainne wrote: »

I never said you didnt have that right eddyc, in fact the same people im talkin about fought so you could think whatever the hell you want.. I couldn't care less if you dont want to learn the language, i just feel, and let me stress that this is only my opinion, that the language should be given a bit more respect than some people are giving it here...

Its the official language of this country so I feel it should be compulsary at schools, in fact i believe that if primary teachers were more capable speakers and teachers of the language, and put more of an emphasis on teaching it we could see a huge growth in the language all over the country..

Are you saying what they fought for was that we can think whatever we want as long as we speak Irish?

fearbainne

eddyc wrote: »

Are you saying what they fought for was that we can think whatever we want as long as we speak Irish?

Éist eddyc, all am saying is they fought for freedom, for right of speech and all that craic, you can think what ya want in any language you want....

As i said from the start, I just feel respect should be shown to this, the language of our ancestors, the language of a minority of the population, the language people have died in the country to preserve, that is all..

the second point i made up there was of my own personal opinion and wasnt aimed at ya at all, just an opinion for discussion by the rest of the posters that may have somethin relevant to say...

Im not goin to debate this with ya all day cos im just givin my opinion, you obviously have some grudge with the irish language, maybe a bad experience of the gaeltacht, or a bad result in the leaving in irish, take it up with roinn na gaeltachta...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.