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Is Irish a dead language?

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    #842
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You've well and truly lost it now. "Of his era" are the operative words, obviously. He was writing in 1799 and you're treating his figures as reliable. You claim that Diarmait Mac Giolla Chríost and Hindley say Stokes's figures are reliable. As usual you provide no verbatim evidence for this claim. They never said any such thing so kindly stop twisting things to try and get yourself out of the hole you've created.

    Once again your claim is that a "study" carried out by a single man of the entire Irish population - your argument is really comical - in 1799 is reliable, despite all professional historians agreeing that the first "reliable" statistics on the population of Ireland can only be dated to the 1851 census. The point in mentioning the British Empire should be obvious: even the largest power in the world was incapable of securing reliable statistics on the population of Ireland until 1851. In your world, however, a single man appears to have done this as far back as 1799.:rolleyes:

    Embarrassing.


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    #843
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I've seen the figures you've claimed, I actually have them in a book at home titled "The death of the Irish language: A qualified obituary" By Reg Hindley which covers a few studies, and indeed reflects on the decline of the language.

    One thing you'll notice is that the figures provided in these studies don't really add up. For example - a study in 1799 by stokes claimed of a population of 5.4 million, 2.4 million spoke Irish placing Irish as a minority language as far back as 1799. 13 years later, another study by Wakefield put the figure at 3 million Irish speakers out of 5.9 million, putting Irish as a majority language in 1813.

    Anderson then did a study in 1814 where this number amazingly dropped to a perfect 2,000,000. A convenient number, wouldn't you say? 7 years later, he did a combined study with Graves and placed that number at 3.7 million out of a population of 6.8 million - placing Irish still as the majority language.

    A study by Lappenberg in 1835, placed the number at 4 million out of a population of 7.7 million - Irish still maintaining a majority language status. Anderson re-took his study in 1841, with 4.1 million Irish speakers, out of a population of 8.1 million - placing the Irish language, still as the majority language as recent as 1841.

    The Irish famine then hit in 1845, which any subsequent studies saw an immediate drop off in Irish language speakers. So when I state that the famine had a huge impact on the Irish language, and that the language was still strong in the first half of the 1800's, I'm not wrong.

    Did the language start to decline in the east in the late 1700's to early 1800's? Absolutely, but it was still strong in the south, east, and north-eastern parts of Ireland right up until the famine.

    If you're going to cite the works of one person from 1799 as the de facto figure, then be my guest.


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    #844
    Kev_ps3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    Of course its not dead, but its on a life-support machine thanks to our useless unpatriotic leaders who dont want to teach it properly.


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    #845
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Enkidu wrote: »
    *The only reason I'm using the Irish here is that I'm not aware of Cois Fharraige having an English name.
    Never heard of the place. Try again in English please.This is the problem. The primary purpose of language is to communicate. If you want to keep an archaic language for ceremonial purposes, that's fine, but compulsory "culture teaching" time would be better spent on Irish trad music.


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    #846
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    recedite wrote: »
    Never heard of the place.
    That's a shame, as far as I know it's the official name of the location. Take a few minutes to look it up on a map if you like but we're not going to compel people to make up English-language names (even an English translation to "seaside" or something similar) for places that are known by all who've heard of it by a name that happens to be in the Irish language. Having said that, if people are going to mention places, it's important that they make it clear for others where they're talking about - make an effort, assume you have readers.

    More importantly (most importantly) though, it's got nothing important to do with the discussion, as another forum member correctly pointed out a few pages back.

    A little less of the pissing contest would be good too, folks.

    Yes, that's a mod post.

    /mod


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    #847
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    recedite wrote: »
    Never heard of the place. Try again in English please.This is the problem. The primary purpose of language is to communicate. If you want to keep an archaic language for ceremonial purposes, that's fine, but compulsory "culture teaching" time would be better spent on Irish trad music.



    Or you could just look a little further down to where the location is explained by P.Breathnach(I think) :rolleyes:

    If I had to use an English place name when speaking Irish because I did not know its Irish version, or there was none I would not face hostilitty for it, So why are you being so hostile?

    I for one have no intrest in keaping an archaic language(its age seams to have something to do with its validity) for ceremonial purposes, I want to keep our Historic language to use it, with other people, to comunicate with them.:)


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    #848
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    recedite wrote: »
    Never heard of the place. Try again in English please.This is the problem. The primary purpose of language is to communicate. If you want to keep an archaic language for ceremonial purposes, that's fine, but compulsory "culture teaching" time would be better spent on Irish trad music.

    Yes, because the only compulsory "culture teaching" we should have is teaching the culture which you evidently feel most comfortable in? Let's make everything English and fit all of Irish society into that narrow, artificial interpretation of this society. And then, without any irony of course, people who share your view will give out about "nationalist" cultural projects.

    And I wonder how many other places and words you have not heard of that we must now change in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator in Irish society....


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    #849
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    recedite wrote: »
    Never heard of the place. Try again in English please.This is the problem. The primary purpose of language is to communicate.
    It has no English name, as in it has no Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Norman derived name. It's name in English is Cois Fharraige, it has been carried over without Anglicisation. I'm also not really sure what your point is. Even if I didn't like Irish, I couldn't refer to the region without saying Cois Fharraige.

    Do you apply this standard to any place with a name carried over intact from the original language. Do you ask people to "try again in English please" if they have been in Honolulu. Or do you prefer people don't mention them, "I've been to that city place in Hawaii".

    [Edit]As sceptre said though I should make an effort to be understood. Cois Fharraige is a region in southern Galway. It's runs from "Barna or Forbo or Spiddal west as far as Carna or maybe Cashel" to paraphrase P. Breathnach. If you've heard of a place called The Rosses in Donegal it's a similar kind of vaguely defined region specified more by its geographical and social features.
    recedite wrote: »
    If you want to keep an archaic language for ceremonial purposes, that's fine, but compulsory "culture teaching" time would be better spent on Irish trad music.
    Fine, perhaps if I had argued for compulsory teaching this would be relevant.

    (Apologies sceptre only read your post now, I'll say no more.)


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    #850
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Enkidu wrote: »
    It's name in English is Cois Fharraige, it has been carried over without Anglicisation.
    It's runs from "Barna or Forbo or Spiddal west as far as Carna or maybe Cashel
    Thanks for that, I genuinely had not heard of it, even though I have several times travelled up the Connemara coastline. It's not on my OSI map either. Maybe it's a name learned by generations of school kids attending summer schools in the Gaeltacht, referring to the preferred beach front accommodation?
    Either way it is a good metaphor for the insularity of the language. I mean it is common to see signs around the coast for "trá" or suchlike, which might be used locally for identifying a location. But in a wider context it is better to use a proper (unique) name.
    On one occasion passing through An Spidéal I was accompanied by a Gaelgeoir and we went into a shop/petrol station. I jokingly suggested that my friend would have to do all the talking. Therein ensued the comic spectacle of the visiting Gaelgeoir speaking in Irish, but the local Gaelgeoir replying to everything in English. My friend became more and more agitated, and finally we left. I was so busy slagging off the Gaelgeoir friend that I never did find out exactly what was going on there.:D


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    #851
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Thanks for that, I genuinely had not heard of it, even though I have several times travelled up the Connemara coastline.
    My fault for not explaining it, it's easy not to hear the name.
    Maybe it's a name learned by generations of school kids attending summer schools in the Gaeltacht, referring to the preferred beach front accommodation?
    Either way it is a good metaphor for the insularity of the language. I mean it is common to see signs around the coast for "trá" or suchlike, which might be used locally for identifying a location. But in a wider context it is better to use a proper (unique) name.
    Yeah, I think it is an old name, but very "local" if you get my meaning. Similar to how people in Michigan say U.P. for the upper peninsula.
    recedite wrote: »
    On one occasion passing through An Spidéal I was accompanied by a Gaelgeoir and we went into a shop/petrol station. I jokingly suggested that my friend would have to do all the talking. Therein ensued the comic spectacle of the visiting Gaelgeoir speaking in Irish, but the local Gaelgeoir replying to everything in English. My friend became more and more agitated, and finally we left. I was so busy slagging off the Gaelgeoir friend that I never did find out exactly what was going on there.:D
    You think that's bad. I was in Gweedore in Donegal once and somebody taught me how to say some Irish words all with "ch" at the end of them. Basically the "ch" is semi-silent. I said the word to somebody in Ranafast and they told me I was pronouncing it wrong, the "ch" is strong like in Scotland. I told them about what the guys in Gweedore said and he goes "Oh, that's correct.......in Gweedore Irish".

    (Of course it's not as bad as Italy where you can't walk three meters without people having a different dialect.)


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    #852
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Can anyone suggest why the following third level college courses (among many others) require Irish as an entry requirement?
    Accounting at UCC
    Architecture at UCD
    Biotechnology at NUI Galway

    Are we trying to create a knowledge economy, or have the luddites taken over the asylum?


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    #853
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    recedite wrote: »
    Can anyone suggest why the following third level college courses (among many others) require Irish as an entry requirement?

    Accounting at UCC
    Architecture at UCD
    Biotechnology at NUI Galway

    No. I don't see the need for any of the above requiring Irish. Nor English for that matter.


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    #854
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No. I don't see the need for any of the above requiring Irish. Nor English for that matter.
    The courses are taught through english.


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    #855
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The courses are taught through english.

    And English language proficiency could be a requirement, like all courses - it doesn't mean that it would need leaving-cert level English as a requirement.


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    #856
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The courses are taught through english.



    Are they tought through sheakspearian quotes, Potery themes and metaphores?


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    #857
    Kepti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 426 ✭✭Kepti


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Are they tought through sheakspearian quotes, Potery themes and metaphores?

    No, they're taut true shakespearian quotas, Pottery themes and megaphones.


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    #858
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Kepti wrote: »
    No, they're taut true shakespearian quotas, Pottery themes and megaphones.



    Ah well in that case it all makes sence.:D


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    #859
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    And English language proficiency could be a requirement, like all courses - it doesn't mean that it would need leaving-cert level English as a requirement.
    Then what do you think the requirement should be?
    deise go deo wrote:
    Are they tought through sheakspearian quotes, Potery themes and metaphores?
    Not knowing for definite, I can't say for sure. But I would imagine not.


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    #860
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Then what do you think the requirement should be?

    Well that would be up to the university but a level of literacy that would enabel you to express yourself unhinderd is what I would think.
    Not knowing for definite, I can't say for sure. But I would imagine not.

    Well then that leaves higher level leaving cert English pritty much irrelevant to these courses.


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    #861
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Then what do you think the requirement should be?

    Competent English would be fine.


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    #862
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well that would be up to the university but a level of literacy that would enabel you to express yourself unhinderd is what I would think.
    And what qualification do you think candidates should have as proof of their ability to express themselves unhinderd.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well then that leaves higher level leaving cert English pritty much irrelevant to these courses.
    And ordinary level...


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    #863
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Competent English would be fine.
    What qualification should one have to prove they are competent in english?


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    #864
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    What qualification should one have to prove they are competent in english?

    None if they speak it as a first language. If they speak it as a second language, then the standard english competency exam.


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    #865
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And what qualification do you think candidates should have as proof of their ability to express themselves unhinderd.
    I think dlofnep said it best.
    And ordinary level...

    Is just a less complicated version of the same thing and still largely irrelevent.


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    #866
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    dlofnep wrote: »
    None if they speak it as a first language. If they speak it as a second language, then the standard english competency exam.
    Right, basic English should be an entry requirement, enough to be able to follow the course content.

    Now, any ideas why ordinary level Irish is necessary?


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    #867
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    recedite wrote: »
    Right, basic English should be an entry requirement, enough to be able to follow the course content.

    Now, any ideas why ordinary level Irish is necessary?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67162163&postcount=853


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    #868
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Ah yes, I quoted you dlofnep because I thought your statement epitomised the final consensus of opinion in regard to English. Thanks for that.
    And now the same question to the audience.... :)


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    #869
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Ever feel like you were going round in circles?:rolleyes:


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    #870
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    None if they speak it as a first language. If they speak it as a second language, then the standard english competency exam.
    I don't agree. Just because english is someone's first language doesn't mean to say they are at a level required by the university.

    Especially if that person hasn't had any english language education since joining secondary school at the age of twelve because english has been made a choice subject. Something you are in favour off.
    deise go deo wrote:
    Ever feel like you were going round in circles?
    Yes, all the time.


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    #871
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I don't agree. Just because english is someone's first language doesn't mean to say they are at a level required by the university.

    Especially if that person hasn't had any english language education since joining secondary school because english has been made a choice subject. Something you are in favour off.


    Well if they have performed well enough in their exams to get the place then I dont think they would have a problem with English.

    Anyway this is about wether Irish (and English) should be entry requirements for a course that dosent Deal with those subjects specifically. Not (as I see the debate) on makeing English optional.


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