Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Is Irish a dead language?

Options
1…2728303233…131

Comments

  • Options
    #872
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I don't agree. Just because english is someone's first language doesn't mean to say they are at a level required by the university.

    Especially if that person hasn't had any english language education since joining secondary school at the age of twelve because english has been made a choice subject. Something you are in favour off.

    Firstly, I never advocated English being optional at the age of 12. I suggested that it might be optional for the leaving cert. In the context of what we were discussing - the poster was asking what requirement the courses in question (accounting, biochemistry and so on) had of the Irish language. I pointed out none. But in the same respect, they do not require leaving cert level English.

    Leaving cert level English should not be a requirement for college courses that focus on math-based subjects, or IT. I don't have a leaving cert, but yet - I've a decent grasp of the English language, an a 2.1 (2 points of a 1.1) honours degree in IT. At no stage have I ever required leaving cert level English.

    So when the poster asks why Irish should be a requirement for such courses, I agree with his premise that it actually shouldn't be a requirement. In the same respect, I don't believe that English should be a requirement. God forbid, a mathematical genius got an A in honours maths, but a D in ordinary level English and it affected his ability to study quantum physics.


  • Options
    #873
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well if they have performed well enough in their exams to get the place then I dont think they would have a problem with English.
    They could have performed their exams through irish.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Anyway this is about wether Irish (and English) should be entry requirements for a course that dosent Deal with those subjects specifically. Not (as I see the debate) on makeing English optional.
    The poster was arguing that candidates should not need formal education in the english language in order to enter into an english language course. So of course the position of english in our schools is relevent.


  • Options
    #874
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The poster was arguing that candidates should not need formal education in the english language in order to enter into an english language course.

    Wrong.


  • Options
    #875
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Firstly, I never advocated English being optional at the age of 12. I suggested that it might be optional for the leaving cert. In the context of what we were discussing - the poster was asking what requirement the courses in question (accounting, biochemistry and so on) had of the Irish language. I pointed out none. But in the same respect, they do not require leaving cert level English.

    Leaving cert level English should not be a requirement for college courses that focus on math-based subjects, or IT. I don't have a leaving cert, but yet - I've a decent grasp of the English language, an a 2.1 (2 points of a 1.1) honours degree in IT. At no stage have I ever required leaving cert level English.

    So when the poster asks why Irish should be a requirement for such courses, I agree with his premise that it actually shouldn't be a requirement. In the same respect, I don't believe that English should be a requirement. God forbid, a mathematical genius got an A in honours maths, but a D in ordinary level English and it affected his ability to study quantum physics.
    Apologies, I thought you had called for it to be optional throughout secondary school.

    Having said that while I agree that irish should not be a condition for these subjects I don't agree that a fiveteen year old child has a university level grasp on the english language and requires futher formal training.


  • Options
    #876
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Wrong.
    Is it? The only formal education you have called for was the junior cert for native speakers and the standard english competency exam for non native speakers.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #877
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Apologies, I thought you had called for it to be optional throughout secondary school.

    Having said that while I agree that irish should not be a condition for these subjects I don't agree that a fiveteen year old child has a university level grasp on the english language and requires futher formal training.



    Well I dont really see what relevance Shakespear or poetery has on accounting tbh, Surely you would be better off requiring accounting for that. 15 yearolds generally dont tend to go to uni so unless you are saying the only way someone can learn English is in English class that isent really relevent. I would suggedt an 18 year old who has done well enough to pass their exams through English and got enough points to do their course would have a uni level grasp on the language,

    waits to be asked what a uni level grasp of english is


  • Options
    #878
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Is it? The only formal education you have called for was the junior cert for native speakers and the standard english competency exam for non native speakers.


    Hmmm so the Junior cert is no longer considered to be formal education. What pray tell is it then?


  • Options
    #879
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Apologies, I thought you had called for it to be optional throughout secondary school.

    No, I believe it should be a required subject along with Irish for the junior cert, beyond that - I don't really care.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Having said that while I agree that irish should not be a condition for these subjects I don't agree that a fiveteen year old child has a university level grasp on the english language and requires futher formal training.

    It depends on the course. In IT for example, I don't see the need for a poet-like command of the English language. I'm living proof of that. For math's driven courses, language would normally take a back-seat.

    Look - many foreign students come to Ireland and get degrees, with levels of English that could only be compared to foundation level English at a junior cert level. The English language may be important for some courses, but not all. Your refusal to accept this demonstrates great bias in where your apply your logic, in regards to what should or shouldn't be a mandatory requirement for college.


  • Options
    #880
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Is it? The only formal education you have called for was the junior cert for native speakers and the standard english competency exam for non native speakers.

    That's how it stands already for non-native speakers.


  • Options
    #881
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well I dont really see what relevance Shakespear or poetery has on accounting tbh, Surely you would be better off requiring accounting for that.
    They haven't any relevance. But leaving cert english is the most convenient formal exam we have to prove candidates competency in english. So I can see why it is required.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    15 yearolds generally dont tend to go to uni so unless you are saying the only way someone can learn English is in English class that isent really relevent.
    No, I'm not saying that but universities tend to only care about formal education.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    I would suggedt an 18 year old who has done well enough to pass their exams through English and got enough points to do their course would have a uni level grasp on the language,
    What if the candidate decided to do their exam in irish?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #882
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    What if the candidate decided to do their exam in irish?

    They still have to pass an English exam. English is a part of the curriculum for gaelscoileanna.


  • Options
    #883
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They haven't any relevance. But leaving cert english is the most convenient formal exam we have to prove candidates competency in english. So I can see why it is required.

    So you beleive the only way to see if someone has a grasp on english is through their leaving cert english results. You dont think getting good marks in other exams may prove that theyr competent in the langauage.
    No, I'm not saying that but universities tend to only care about formal education.

    Are other exams not formal education?
    I have already said that any of this is down to the university,
    What if the candidate decided to do their exam in irish?

    Then they could easily, in this seniaro, be treated as a non native speaker of English in order to establish their competency in English.


    Out of intrest, would you beleive that a person capable of passing their leaving cert exams through Irish would need to do Irish to prove their competent in it?


  • Options
    #884
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    They still have to pass an English exam. English is a part of the curriculum for gaelscoileanna.
    Yes, because it is a mandatory subject for the leaving cert. But if it wasn't mandatory then there is no guarantee every student will take up english.


  • Options
    #885
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Yes, because it is a mandatory subject for the leaving cert. But if it wasn't mandatory then there is no guarantee every student will take up english.

    In the case of a student from a gaelscoil not doing English then they could in that senario be treated as a non native speaker.

    Can I ask what this has to do with Irish being dead(or not)
    Maybe I missed it but have you actually stated your position yet. What do you think and what do you want to see happen with Irish?


  • Options
    #886
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    deise go deo wrote: »
    In the case of a student from a gaelscoil not doing English then they could in that senario be treated as a non native speaker.
    English is a mandatory subject in primary school. I don't think anyone is arguing to have it removed as such.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Can I ask what this has to do with Irish being dead(or not)
    Maybe I missed it but have you actually stated your position yet. What do you think and what do you want to see happen with Irish?
    Well, Irish is not a dead language as according to the strict linguistic definition of that term as language is not dead while it still has native speakers.

    As for what I want to see happen with the language. I want it to be made a choice subject in both primary and secondary school as I don't believe people should be made learn the language if they don't want to.

    In the case of primary school the prinicple or school board should decide whether to teach irish in their school for all students or not. This will allow parents to choose schools based on their own opinions on the language while also taking the decision out of the hands of an immature child.

    In secondary school the language should be a choice from the outset of first year when children, with the guidence of their parents of course, can make a decision whether or not to take up the subject for the junior cert.

    As for the actual teaching of the subject I will leave ideas of reform in the capable hands of the many gaelgeoirs, linguists and teachers whose job it will be to make irish a subject worth learning. I only care about giving the future children of this country the right to refuse the forced education of irish you and I had to endure.


  • Options
    #887
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    English is a mandatory subject in primary school. I don't think anyone is arguing to have it removed as such.

    What has that got to do with what I said?
    Well, Irish is not a dead language as according to the strict linguistic definition of that term as language is not dead while it still has native speakers.

    As for what I want to see happen with the language. I want it to be made a choice subject in both primary and secondary school as I don't believe people should be made learn the language if they don't want to.

    In the case of primary school the prinicple or school board should decide whether to teach irish in their school for all students or not. This will allow parents to choose schools based on their own opinions on the language while also taking the decision out of the hands of an immature child.

    In secondary school the language should be a choice from the outset of first year when children, with the guidence of their parents of course, can make a decision whether or not to take up the subject for the junior cert.

    As for the actual teaching of the subject I will leave ideas of reform in the capable hands of the many gaelgeoirs, linguists and teachers whose job it will be to make irish a subject worth learning. I only care about giving the future children of this country the right to refuse the forced education of irish you and I had to endure.


    Well, I had more of an Issue with the forced education of English I had to endure. But thats just me,

    Well overall that seams to be a reasonable position, so why, might I ask, did you adopt (what seamed to me) such a hostile position in relation to Irish, and Irish speakers in general up to now?


  • Options
    #888
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    deise go deo wrote: »
    What has that got to do with what I said?
    You said:
    deise go deo wrote:
    In the case of a student from a gaelscoil not doing English then they could in that senario be treated as a non native speaker.
    While I said every student would be doing english in gaelscoil as it's mandatory.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well overall that seams to be a reasonable position, so why, might I ask, did you adopt (what seamed to me) such a hostile position in relation to Irish, and Irish speakers in general up to now?
    What do you mean?


  • Options
    #889
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »

    While I said every student would be doing english in gaelscoil as it's mandatory.

    I was Responding to this.
    Yes, because it is a mandatory subject for the leaving cert. But if it wasn't mandatory then there is no guarantee every student will take up english.

    What do you mean?

    I mean.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    . However these people are likely to be a gaelgeoir/nationalist/GAA lunatic

    Comments like this, portraying Gaelgeoirs among others as lunatics.


  • Options
    #890
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    As for what I want to see happen with the language. I want it to be made a choice subject in both primary and secondary school as I don't believe people should be made learn the language if they don't want to.

    And a 7 year old child knows what they want?

    Give a child the choice, and they will do 5 PE classes and 5 art classes. It's interesting that you're pro-choice, but only when it comes to the Irish language. Have Irish as an optional subject in primary schools is ridiculous. It would further dilute the language in society.

    We want the language to live - and your plans would kill it off altogether. No thanks.


  • Options
    #891
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    In the case of primary school the prinicple or school board should decide whether to teach irish in their school for all students or not. This will allow parents to choose schools based on their own opinions on the language while also taking the decision out of the hands of an immature child.

    Nonsense. What about small areas that have only one primary school? Your plans have no real-world merit.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #892
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Comments like this, portraying Gaelgeoirs among others as lunatics.
    Ah, I see. My mistake. The line should have read :
    deise go deo wrote: »
    However these people are likely to be a gaelgeoir/nationalist/(GAA-lunatic)
    I wasn't potraying gaelgeoirs and nationalists as lunatics. Only people who like GAA so much they begin to use irish place names.


  • Options
    #893
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    And a 7 year old child knows what they want?
    No, they don't. Which is why it is of the utmost importance that the decision is taken away from the child and given to the parents.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Give a child the choice, and they will do 5 PE classes and 5 art classes. It's interesting that you're pro-choice, but only when it comes to the Irish language. Have Irish as an optional subject in primary schools is ridiculous. It would further dilute the language in society.
    Did you read my post? On this I wrote:
    "In the case of primary school the prinicple or school board should decide whether to teach irish in their school for all students or not. This will allow parents to choose schools based on their own opinions on the language while also taking the decision out of the hands of an immature child."
    dlofnep wrote: »
    We want the language to live - and your plans would kill it off altogether. No thanks.
    Forcing people to learn irish is not the best way to help it live. Rather it makes people resent it.

    By making irish optional the education system will be able to build a small but dedicated core of speakers which I believe will benifite the language in the long run.


  • Options
    #894
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Nonsense. What about small areas that have only one primary school? Your plans have no real-world merit.
    Then the childs parents will have to make a decision wheter to send the child to the convenient school to either learn or not learn irish or make the commitment to commute.

    Just one of the unavoidable downsides of living in such a sparsely populated country I'm afraid.


  • Options
    #895
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No, they don't. Which is why it is of the utmost importance that the decision is taken away from the child and given to the parents.

    So wait now - you want to afford whether or not a child has the choice in learning Irish in school, but the child doesn't actually have that decision. It's not really choice, now is it? Could you imagine the amount of children 20 years down the road who would say "I really wish my parents placed me in Irish class?"
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Forcing people to learn irish is not the best way to help it live. Rather it makes people resent it.

    It makes some people resent it. Other people appreciate it. In people were actually afforded a curriculum that allowed them to speak it, those numbers you claim that resent it - would be seriously reduced.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    By making irish optional the education system will be able to build a small but dedicated core of speakers which I believe will benifite the language in the long run.

    By making Irish optional to the extent that you are suggesting (primary school), would only dilute the language further and effectively, kill it off. It's an asinine suggestion.


  • Options
    #896
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Then the childs parents will have to make a decision wheter to send the child to the convenient school to either learn or not learn irish or make the commitment to commute.

    Just one of the unavoidable downsides of living in such a sparsely populated country I'm afraid.

    A child's parent should make the decision to commute up to 50 miles, because the Irish language is not represented in their local primary school?

    Great idea... :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #897
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    So wait now - you want to afford whether or not a child has the choice in learning Irish in school, but the child doesn't actually have that decision. It's not really choice, now is it? Could you imagine the amount of children 20 years down the road who would say "I really wish my parents placed me in Irish class?"
    I can also imagine a huge number of people who did irish and will say "I really wish my parents didn't place me in Irish class." But that's just the way things are. Parents make decisions on behalf of their children everyday. The children may not like the decision when they grow up but they will soon be making decisions on behalf of their children.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    It makes some people resent it. Other people appreciate it. In people were actually afforded a curriculum that allowed them to speak it, those numbers you claim that resent it - would be seriously reduced.
    I doubt it. You can force a child to learn a language but you can't force him to like it.

    If someone say for example doesn't like the sound of the language, can't pronounce the words correctly or simply just considers it pointless then he won't enjoy the experience. And shouldn't be forced to endure by the state for silly nationalistic grounds.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    By making Irish optional to the extent that you are suggesting (primary school), would only dilute the language further and effectively, kill it off. It's an asinine suggestion.
    I don't agree. I believe my suggestion will build a core of small loyal fans of the irish language who have learned it from primary school and who, when they have children, will send their sprogs to an irish language teaching primary school.


  • Options
    #898
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    A child's parent should make the decision to commute up to 50 miles, because the Irish language is not represented in their local primary school?

    Great idea... :rolleyes:
    Again, one of the unavoidable downsides of living in a sparsely populated country. Though I don't see how you got the figure of 50 miles between primary schools. :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #899
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Ah, I see. My mistake. The line should have read :

    I wasn't potraying gaelgeoirs and nationalists as lunatics. Only people who like GAA so much they begin to use irish place names.


    what class of a comment is that??


  • Options
    #900
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    aDeener wrote: »
    what class of a comment is that??
    What? Do you disagree with the statement that people who love the GAA so much they begin to use irish language place names are lunatics?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #901
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Again, one of the unavoidable downsides of living in a sparsely populated country. Though I don't see how you got the figure of 50 miles between primary schools. :rolleyes:

    It's only a downside if your ideas were introduced.

    As it stands, every child around the country is afforded the opportunity to learn Irish. I think we'll keep it that way if you don't mind.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement