Is Irish a dead language?

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

It's only a downside if your ideas were introduced.

As it stands, every child around the country is afforded the opportunity to learn Irish. I think we'll keep it that way if you don't mind.

I was asked by another poster to give my opinions on what I would like see happen with the language and I did that. Though your use of phrase makes it sound like every child wants to learn irish. Which is simply not the case.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I was asked by another poster to give my opinions on what I would like see happen with the language and I did that. Though your use of phrase makes it sound like every child wants to learn irish. Which is simply not the case.

I never made that claim at any point in this thread. I've given my opinion on your suggestions. I'm not sure what the problem is?

P. Breathnach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What? Do you disagree with the statement that people who love the GAA so much they begin to use irish language place names are lunatics?

Jaysus! Has "discussion" come down to this?

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

I never made that claim at any point in this thread. I've given my opinion on your suggestions. I'm not sure what the problem is?

You used the phrase "every child around the country is afforded the opportunity to learn Irish" which makes it sound like every child wants to learn irish.

Do you not feel any guilt about supporting a status quo in which children are forced by the state to learn an impractical language that they will never use beyond their fourteen years education?

Nevermind the parents of the child who also don't have a say in their own childs education because that right was taken away from them in the thirties by an overzealous, immature, nationalistic irish government.

Iwasfrozen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Jaysus! Has "discussion" come down to this?

heh.

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

heh.

So, not only do you hate Irish, you hate GAA too? You cease talking with people in GAA jerseys too no doubt?

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So, not only do you hate Irish, you hate GAA too? You cease talking with people in GAA jerseys too no doubt?

I don't hate irish and I don't hate GAA. Where in God's name do you get this stuff?

Qualitymark

...ach a duairt seisin: "Níl sí marbh, ach ina codladh." Lúcas VIII:52

Iwasfrozen

Qualitymark wrote: »

...ach a duairt seisin: "Níl sí marbh, ach ina codladh." Lúcas VIII:52

It would take a miracle to awaken irish. :cool:

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You used the phrase "every child around the country is afforded the opportunity to learn Irish" which makes it sound like every child wants to learn irish.

No, it doesn't make it sound like that at all. It makes it sound like, exactly what I said. Every child has the opportunity to learn the Irish language.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you not feel any guilt about supporting a status quo in which children are forced by the state to learn an impractical language that they will never use beyond their fourteen years education?

I feel no guilt whatsoever. No more than I feel guilty about children learning about history. I mean, history has a very limited use in the present - but yet I don't hear you calling for the abolition of history as a subject, or affording schools the option to remove history from the curriculum.

I am btw, a huge fan of history - I am just pointing out the rather transparent inconsistencies with your logic.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nevermind the parents of the child who also don't have a say in their own childs education because that right was taken away from them in the thirties by an overzealous, immature, nationalistic irish government.

Um, not it wasn't. As someone who proposes that we make Irish optional in primary school - what other subjects are afforded such a status?

A parent has every say in their child's education. If they don't like the idea of their child learning the Irish language, in an Irish primary school - they could always commute (as you suggested earlier) to another country.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't hate irish and I don't hate GAA. Where in God's name do you get this stuff?

Well, your consistent attempts to organise anyone who supports the Irish language & the GAA as lunatics doesn't help your case, now does it?

Qualitymark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It would take a miracle to awaken irish. :cool:

Bhféidir nach bhfuil sin fíor, a h-Iwasfrozen; nach dtuigeann tusa an ráiteas

sceptre

Qualitymark wrote: »

Bhféidir nach bhfuil sin fíor, a h-Iwasfrozen; nach dtuigeann tusa an ráiteas

More people are far more likely to understand your statements if you include an English-language translation for both the cheap and expensive seats, although Iwasfrozen appears to have well-understood the requirement for a divine catalyst to give Lazarus a bit of a wakening jab. Even where you're re-translating biblical bits for no particular reason that add nothing substantive to the discussion.

Yes, that's an instruction to do so. Complaints to me via PM.

Aside, I want to see less idiotic silliness in this thread please. Those of you who are doing your snippy sniping routine (and yes, you've done it before so it's little more than a routine with poor props) will stop immediately.

/mod

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it doesn't make it sound like that at all. It makes it sound like, exactly what I said. Every child has the opportunity to learn the Irish language.

And every child would still have the opportunity to learn irish under my suggestion. Though we really should say every parent has the opportunity to have their child learn irish. As it's the parents choice that really matters here. Not the childs.

dlofnep wrote: »

I feel no guilt whatsoever. No more than I feel guilty about children learning about history. I mean, history has a very limited use in the present - but yet I don't hear you calling for the abolition of history as a subject, or affording schools the option to remove history from the curriculum.

History is an incredibly important subject. While some people say it doesn't matter what happened years ago, what's done is done. But I disagree. I believe that we can learn from our mistakes and using history to enlighten childrens minds is one way of ensuring history is not repeated.

dlofnep wrote: »

I am btw, a huge fan of history - I am just pointing out the rather transparent inconsistencies with your logic.

The funny thing about logic is that one must start off from a balanced position in order to achieve a balanced conclusion.

dlofnep wrote: »

Um, not it wasn't.

Yes it was.

dlofnep wrote: »

As someone who proposes that we make Irish optional in primary school - what other subjects are afforded such a status?

Religion would be an obvious one.

dlofnep wrote: »

A parent has every say in their child's education. If they don't like the idea of their child learning the Irish language, in an Irish primary school - they could always commute (as you suggested earlier) to another country.

Theres a hell of a difference between commuting to the next town and commuting across the border don't you think?

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And every child would still have the opportunity to learn irish under my suggestion.

No, they wouldn't. You suggested that Irish be apart of a school's curriculum on a school-by-school basis. I pointed out, that this would affect many people - as it would force them to commute further beyond what is feasible in order to learn the Irish language. It does not place the Irish language on an equal platform.

There are 100's of small villages across Ireland, that are 30 or 40 miles from the nearest moderately sized town. Under your plan, parents would be forced to commute awkward distances to ensure their children learn Irish. It's not practical in anyway, shape or form.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Though we really should say every parent has the opportunity to have their child learn irish. As it's the parents choice that really matters here. Not the childs.

So a child should be forced to abandon the opportunity to learn Irish, because their parents request it? I'm still failing to see 'choice' here. It's just passing it from the Government - to the parents. Neither of which are the actual child. It should remain mandatory up until the child is able to make an educated decision for themselves - of which most people would agree is at the leaving cert.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

History is an incredibly important subject. While some people say it doesn't matter what happened years ago, what's done is done. But I disagree. I believe that we can learn from our mistakes and using history to enlighten childrens minds is one way of ensuring history is not repeated.

I've already stated that I like history. But history is forced upon children. What if a child isn't interested in it, and would rather focus their time on science and math? You see.. the same logic can apply for any comment you make in regards to the Irish language. A language can be an enlightening experience for a child to learn.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The funny thing about logic is that one must start off from a balanced position in order to achieve a balanced conclusion.

And you've proved to be such a balanced person on the issue, painting GAA fans as lunatics, as it were. Right..

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Theres a hell of a difference between commuting to the next town and commuting across the border don't you think?

The point remains. You're more than happy for people to be put out when it comes to the Irish language. Forcing families to have to commute to far-off schools is illogical.

In any case - this is Ireland. The Irish language is core part of our education. Your suggestions will never be given the light of day. If you're discontent with the Irish language being present as a core subject in our primary schools, perhaps you might seek bringing your children up in another country where they won't have to learn it instead of trying to put people out, just to suit your own needs.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

No, they wouldn't. You suggested that Irish be apart of a school's curriculum on a school-by-school basis. I pointed out, that this would affect many people - as it would force them to commute further beyond what is feasible in order to learn the Irish language. It does not place the Irish language on an equal platform.

There are 100's of small villages across Ireland, that are 30 or 40 miles from the nearest moderately sized town. Under your plan, parents would be forced to commute awkward distances to ensure their children learn Irish. It's not practical in anyway, shape or form.

The same argument can be made about parents having to commute long distances to advoid an irish language teaching school. But I accept that as a reasonable disadvantage to living in a sparsely populated country.

Of course these parents will always be in the minority as it will be the job off the local school board made up of parents in conjunction with the principal who make the decision whether or not to offer irish as a subject.

dlofnep wrote: »

So a child should be forced to abandon the opportunity to learn Irish, because their parents request it? I'm still failing to see 'choice' here. It's just passing it from the Government - to the parents. Neither of which are the actual child.

Children are not mature enough to make decisions based on their own education. But it is better that the parent who has loved and raised the child for his short life makes the decision based on the needs, ability, and culture of that child rather then the legal enforcement of a blanket decision made by the state. Who neither knows nor cares about the needs of the child. In their pursuit of an outdated ideology.

dlofnep wrote: »

It should remain mandatory up until the child is able to make an educated decision for themselves - of which most people would agree is at the leaving cert.

I don't agree. As I've wrote above. It is better for the parent to make the decision then the state.

dlofnep wrote: »

I've already stated that I like history. But history is forced upon children. What if a child isn't interested in it, and would rather focus their time on science and math? You see.. the same logic can apply for any comment you make in regards to the Irish language. A language can be an enlightening experience for a child to learn.

So, would you like to see history made optional?

dlofnep wrote: »

And you've proved to be such a balanced person on the issue, painting GAA fans as lunatics, as it were. Right..

I never said all GAA fans were lunatics. I said GAA fans who love the GAA so much they begin to use irish language place names while speaking english were lunatics.

dlofnep wrote: »

The point remains. You're more than happy for people to be put out when it comes to the Irish language. Forcing families to have to commute to far-off schools is illogical.

I very much so doubt you figure of 30-40 miles between schools. Ireland is big but not that big. Also weren't you the one who suggested parents who don't want their children to learn irish commute to the North? Talk about hypocritical...

dlofnep wrote: »

In any case - this is Ireland. The Irish language is core part of our education.

You make it sound like the irish language was always a core part of our eduction and not the failed pet project of an overzealous, immature, nationalistic irish government in the thirties.

dlofnep wrote: »

If you're discontent with the Irish language being present as a core subject in our primary schools, perhaps you might seek bringing your children up in another country where they won't have to learn it instead of trying to put people out, just to suit your own needs.

Need? I would hardly call suggesting a change for the better suiting my own needs. If any thing I'm suiting my own wants. As well as the thousands of other families out there who would no doubt agree with me.

But then there you go again. You suggest that my plan is silly because those in the minority will have to travel maybe twenty miles to the next school but in the same post you suggest people who don't want their children to waste countless hours on irish live in another country!

The mind boggles...

Qualitymark

sceptre wrote: »

More people are far more likely to understand your statements if you include an English-language translation for both the cheap and expensive seats, although Iwasfrozen appears to have well-understood the requirement for a divine catalyst to give Lazarus a bit of a wakening jab. Even where you're re-translating biblical bits for no particular reason that add nothing substantive to the discussion.

Yes, that's an instruction to do so. Complaints to me via PM.

Aside, I want to see less idiotic silliness in this thread please. Those of you who are doing your snippy sniping routine (and yes, you've done it before so it's little more than a routine with poor props) will stop immediately.

/mod

Certainly - apologies for any hurt feelings to those who complained that I posted in Irish.

What I posted was a biblical quote: "She is not dead, but sleeping." When Iwasfrozen replied, I posted that after all, s/he had understood what I posted.

Iwasfrozen

Qualitymark wrote: »

Certainly - apologies for any hurt feelings to those who complained that I posted in Irish.

What I posted was a biblical quote: "She is not dead, but sleeping." When Iwasfrozen replied, I posted that after all, s/he had understood what I posted.

Well, I did study it for two years*.

*In my case the first twelve years weren't study.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The same argument can be made about parents having to commute long distances to advoid an irish language teaching school. But I accept that as a reasonable disadvantage to living in a sparsely populated country.

Nobody has to commute any long distances to avoid learning Irish, because it is a core subject in all schools in Ireland.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Children are not mature enough to make decisions based on their own education. But it is better that the parent who has loved and raised the child for his short life makes the decision based on the needs, ability, and culture of that child rather then the legal enforcement of a blanket decision made by the state. Who neither knows nor cares about the needs of the child. In their pursuit of an outdated ideology.

So you accept that parents should be able to make a decision based on the needs, ability and culture of a child to choose all subjects in school. If you showed consistency, I might take your posts seriously. But as it stands, it is merely an agenda to scrap the Irish language as part of the educational establishment.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So, would you like to see history made optional?

No, I'm quite content with it being a core school subject, along with maths, english, irish, geography and science. I was just applying your logic to different subjects to show you how biased it was.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I never said all GAA fans were lunatics. I said GAA fans who love the GAA so much they begin to use irish language place names while speaking english were lunatics.

So people who call Waterford, the Déise who watch the Waterford hurling team are lunatics? Yeah, great logic there buddy. A great basis for a balanced discussion. :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I very much so doubt you figure of 30-40 miles between schools. Ireland is big but not that big.

You need to travel more. The point still stands - it would be an inconvenient commute just to suit you.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Also weren't you the one who suggested [blah blah]

No.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You make it sound like the irish language was always a core part of our eduction and not the failed pet project of an overzealous, immature, nationalistic irish government in the thirties.

The Irish language was a core part of our society, until it was banned in school by the British Government between 1831 to 1871 and further discouraged up until the end of the 19th century.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Need? I would hardly call suggesting a change for the better suiting my own needs. If any thing I'm suiting my own wants. As well as the thousands of other families out there who would no doubt agree with me.

I'm sure there's 1000 people to everyone of you that wishes to scrap the Irish language to the extent that you do. You are in the extreme minority, and wish to try dictate the cultural role the Irish language has in our curriculum. Until your views become that of the majority (which they won't), I'm afraid you'll have to settle with expressing them on internet forums where they might catch the eye of one or two people at best.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Nobody has to commute any long distances to avoid learning Irish, because it is a core subject in all schools in Ireland.

I was taking a leaf out of your book. And using logic when you criticised my idea. So please don't try and move the discussion around.

dlofnep wrote: »

So you accept that parents should be able to make a decision based on the needs, ability and culture of a child to choose all subjects in school. If you showed consistency, I might take your posts seriously. But as it stands, it is merely an agenda to scrap the Irish language as part of the educational establishment.

I don't want to scrap the irish language as part of the educational establishment. I want to scrap mandatory irish language as part of the educational establishment. That I would have thought was obvious.

I don't understand why you are bringing history into a discussion on the irish language. I have already said I believe history should be mandatory and I have given my reasons why. Which you agreed to.

Now I know you will say "I was applying the same logic yada yada yada..." but in reality you are resorting to strawmen to try and "win" the arguement. Am I right?

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I'm quite content with it being a core school subject, along with maths, english, irish, geography and science. I was just applying your logic to different subjects to show you how biased it was.

See above.

dlofnep wrote: »

So people who call Waterford, the Déise who watch the Waterford hurling team are lunatics? Yeah, great logic there buddy. A great basis for a balanced discussion. :rolleyes:

Deise were a tribe.

dlofnep wrote: »

You need to travel more. The point still stands - it would be an inconvenient commute just to suit you.

Not to suit me. To suit the majority of the parents on the local school board. Which is how democracy works.

dlofnep wrote: »

No.

Emmm, yes. You did.

dlofnep wrote: »

The Irish language was a core part of our society, until it was banned in school by the British Government between 1831 to 1871 and further discouraged up until the end of the 19th century.

It was discouraged for a reason. English was the language of the new progressive world. Of science and business. Irish was the language of old turf cutting and fairies.

Hell, even Daniel O'Connell. A man I am sure I am not alone in regarding as the greatest irishman discouraged the use of the irish language. Your stance that the British government were the only ones down crying irish is simply not true.

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure there's 1000 people to everyone of you that wishes to scrap the Irish language to the extent that you do.

Scrap? Who said anything about scrapping irish?

dlofnep wrote: »

and wish to try dictate the cultural role the Irish language has in our curriculum.

Talk about hypocytical...

dlofnep wrote: »

Until your views become that of the majority (which they won't), I'm afraid you'll have to settle with expressing them on internet forums where they might catch the eye of one or two people at best.

Heh.

Wolfe Tone

It was discouraged for a reason. English was the language of the new progressive world. Of science and business. Irish was the language of old turf cutting and fairies.

lol. Just lol.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't want to scrap the irish language as part of the educational establishment. I want to scrap mandatory irish language as part of the educational establishment. That I would have thought was obvious.

Wrong - you proposed the idea of schools picking their own curriculum, essentially resulting in Irish being scrapped in the said schools. (Not that any schools would actually do it).

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't understand why you are bringing history into a discussion on the irish language. I have already said I believe history should be mandatory and I have given my reasons why. Which you agreed to.

I didn't introduce history in to discuss history as a topic. I introduced it to show you that you only wish for choice to exist for the Irish language.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Deise were a tribe.

The Decies were a tribe. The Déise is the colloquial name for Waterford. Nice of you to conveniently avoid my point. You equated GAA fans who use Irish place names as being lunatics. I provided you an example of Waterford GAA fans referring to this area as "The Déise" - none of which who are lunatics. Your childish attempts to attack the character of anyone who uses the Irish language are very transparent.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not to suit me. To suit the majority of the parents on the local school board. Which is how democracy works.

I'm afraid it isn't. If the majority of the population supported the language as a mandatory subject - Would you accept that as democracy? Or do you pick and choose where to apply democracy?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Emmm, yes. You did.

Wrong.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It was discouraged for a reason. English was the language of the new progressive world. Of science and business. Irish was the language of old turf cutting and fairies.

I suppose that's why some of the world's greatest Scientists spoke Russian and German, right?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hell, even Daniel O'Connell. A man I am sure I am not alone in regarding as the greatest irishman discouraged the use of the irish language.

And I can name umpteen historical Irish figures who supported the language. Who cares?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Your stance that the British government were the only ones down crying irish is simply not true.

I never once made that statement. If you continue to put words in my mouth, you'll be placed on ignore. I stated that the British Government banned it's use in school. That is a documented fact.

On that note, I've better things to do on a saturday night than badger around the same old issues with you. You're not a fan of the language. I get it. Your views are in the extreme minority. I'm not worried in the least about your vision of a "progressive Ireland".

Sin é.

aDeener

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What? Do you disagree with the statement that people who love the GAA so much they begin to use irish language place names are lunatics?

ehh you clearly arent involved in the GAA, if people start to use irish placenames it has nothing to do with their involvement in GAA... correlation, causation and all that.


FFS.

Dionysus

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What? Do you disagree with the statement that people who love the GAA so much they begin to use irish language place names are lunatics?

Yeah, imagine that: Irish people using Irish language placenames for, well, Irish placenames. How extreme. And of course there was no such thing as an Irish language placename until the GAA was created in 1884. Well done.

And you expect to be taken seriously here?

I just looked at the record of contributions to this thread and nobody has contributed nearly as much to this thread as you. Your venom would indicate that you have some form of OCD about this topic. Looking for a scapegoat to blame for your impending Leaving Cert results?

Got it in one.

cyclopath2001

dlofnep wrote: »

The Irish language was a core part of our society, until it was banned in school by the British Government between 1831 to 1871 and further discouraged up until the end of the 19th century.

Was it a core part of our society in places in Ireland where English was the first language?

Surely you cannot be arguing for the imposition of Irish on Irish people descended from generations of English speakers?

Qualitymark

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Was it a core part of our society in places in Ireland where English was the first language?

Surely you cannot be arguing for the imposition of Irish on Irish people descended from generations of English speakers?

Hm. I'm descended from generations of English-speakers - and generations of Irish-speakers - as I'd guess most people in Ireland are, a stór, a stór, a ghrá.

cyclopath2001

Qualitymark wrote: »

Hm. I'm descended from generations of English-speakers - and generations of Irish-speakers - as I'd guess most people in Ireland are, a stór, a stór, a ghrá.

And...?

Qualitymark

And most people in Ireland are not descended solely from English- or Irish-speakers. We come of a mixed heritage. Which isn't to say that we aren't able, like, say, the Czechs or Finns or Israelis, to reclaim the language and use it. Or would you disagree, cyclopath?

cyclopath2001

Qualitymark wrote: »

And most people in Ireland are not descended solely from English- or Irish-speakers. We come of a mixed heritage. Which isn't to say that we aren't able, like, say, the Czechs or Finns or Israelis, to reclaim the language and use it. Or would you disagree, cyclopath?

The majority of the population may well be able to chose a different langauge to their present one and to select one from among the many spoken by their ancestors many generations ago, but they choose not to do so.

Perhaps they prefer to live in the present?

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Wrong - you proposed the idea of schools picking their own curriculum, essentially resulting in Irish being scrapped in the said schools. (Not that any schools would actually do it).

Wrong - I proposed the idea of school boards, in conjunction the principal deciding by democratic means whether or not to offer the irish language as a subject in school.

And maybe you're right maybe no schools would actually scrap the irish language from their curriculum but I would prefare a childs parents making them learn irish then the state.

dlofnep wrote: »

I didn't introduce history in to discuss history as a topic. I introduced it to show you that you only wish for choice to exist for the Irish language.

Not true. I've already said I also want to see choice introduced for religion.

dlofnep wrote: »

The Decies were a tribe. The Déise is the colloquial name for Waterford. Nice of you to conveniently avoid my point. You equated GAA fans who use Irish place names as being lunatics. I provided you an example of Waterford GAA fans referring to this area as "The Déise" - none of which who are lunatics. Your childish attempts to attack the character of anyone who uses the Irish language are very transparent.

I don't think I attacked anyone. I think you're just reading things that aren't there to suit your own flawed perception of me.

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm afraid it isn't. If the majority of the population supported the language as a mandatory subject - Would you accept that as democracy? Or do you pick and choose where to apply democracy?

You see that's the problem with nationwide democracy. The higher the number of voters the higher the number on the losing side. So say for example 51% of people supported the teaching of the irish language in school that means that 49% don't. Or 2,168,581.

That's why I would rather see power localised. To minimise the number of people who don't get their way and maximise the number of people who do.

dlofnep wrote: »

Wrong.

No, I'm pretty sure you did suggest parents who don't want their children to learn irish commute to the North. I have it right here:

dlofnep wrote:

If they don't like the idea of their child learning the Irish language, in an Irish primary school - they could always commute (as you suggested earlier) to another country.

dlofnep wrote: »

I suppose that's why some of the world's greatest Scientists spoke Russian and German, right?

I'm just saying what the feeling was at the time. Whether it's correct or not is up for you to make your own mind up on.

dlofnep wrote: »

And I can name umpteen historical Irish figures who supported the language. Who cares?

My point being it wasn't just the big bad British who tried to progress the nation futher at the inevitable expense of the irish language. There were many Irish in that boat aswell.

dlofnep wrote: »

I never once made that statement. If you continue to put words in my mouth, you'll be placed on ignore. I stated that the British Government banned it's use in school. That is a documented fact.

Yes, with the support of many irish people.

dlofnep wrote: »

On that note, I've better things to do on a saturday night than badger around the same old issues with you. You're not a fan of the language. I get it. Your views are in the extreme minority. I'm not worried in the least about your vision of a "progressive Ireland".

Heh, fine by me. Though to be honest if you didn't end it I probably would have, your debating style is forceful and negative.

See you around old friend.