Is Irish a dead language?

Iwasfrozen

Dionysus wrote: »

Yeah, imagine that: Irish people using Irish language placenames for, well, Irish placenames. How extreme. And of course there was no such thing as an Irish language placename until the GAA was created in 1884. Well done.

So you disagree that the majority of people who use irish language placenames are either gaelgeoirs/nationalists or GAA lunatics? I've never seen anyone use one who wasn't.

Dionysus wrote: »

I just looked at the record of contributions to this thread and nobody has contributed nearly as much to this thread as you. Your venom would indicate that you have some form of OCD about this topic.

It's a very interesting topic. But no, I don't have OCD.

Dionysus wrote: »

Looking for a scapegoat to blame for your impending Leaving Cert results?

Actually I'm very confident about passing my irish exam. I did O. level and got grinds for a few months beforehand. But nice try to personalise the topic.

Dionysus wrote: »

Got it in one.

Actualy you didn't. But then what can else can you expect when you ask a question then responde to the question before the answer is given? Now I think we should get back to the topic and stop trying to personalise this.

Wolfe Tone

So you disagree that the majority of people who use irish language placenames are either gaelgeoirs/nationalists or GAA lunatics? Because I've never seen anyone use one who wasn't.

Ahhhhh, I see.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Ahhhhh, I see.

Oops, that was a mistake... Take out the "because"

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oops, that was a mistake... Take out the "because"

Well I have seen many people use Irish place names who are none of those things.

cyclopath2001

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm afraid it isn't. If the majority of the population supported the language as a mandatory subject - Would you accept that as democracy? Or do you pick and choose where to apply democracy?

Maybe we should have a referendum on it? I can see the slogans now: "Why do you hate Irish?", "A vote for Irish is a vote against the English", "You too can be Irish, just learn the 'cúpla focal'", "Prove your Irishness - - vote for compulsory Irish",

Or maybe draw conclusions from the number of Irish people who voluntarily speak Irish in their day-to-day lives?

It seems to me that this 'majority' in favour of Irish-speaking are OK with the idea so long as they don't have to speak the language themselves.

aDeener

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you disagree that the majority of people who use irish language placenames are either gaelgeoirs/nationalists or GAA lunatics? I've never seen anyone use one who wasn't.

.

as a matter of interest what exactly is a "gaa lunatic"?

gbee

Problem is Irish Schools have become associated with militancy and IRA terrorism, not too far removed from why the GAA were formed.

For the record, the GAA are not known today to support the armed movement they were set up to hide and train, the Irish Schools have yet to write themselves into history.

Gaelscoil = Militancy an intolerance

Kev_ps3

gbee wrote: »

Problem is Irish Schools have become associated with militancy and IRA terrorism, not too far removed from why the GAA were formed.

For the record, the GAA are not known today to support the armed movement they were set up to hide and train, the Irish Schools have yet to write themselves into history.

Gaelscoil = Militancy an intolerance

Not sure if serious..:rolleyes:

Either way im sure boards mods will have no prob with it, after all its anti-Irish.

civis_liberalis

One of the biggest problems with the Irish language is that far too many of the people who are meant to be teaching it to kids can barely string a sentence together. I have seen this on countless occasions.

cyclopath2001

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Either way im sure boards mods will have no prob with it, after all its anti-Irish.

Ah yes, the old reliable "Why do you hate Irish?" argument, always useful to bring rational debate on support for the Irish langauge to a standstill.

Focalbhach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you disagree that the majority of people who use irish language placenames are either gaelgeoirs/nationalists or GAA lunatics? I've never seen anyone use one who wasn't.

Out of curiosity, can you please define what you mean by:

(i) gaelgeoir?
(ii) nationalist?
(iii) GAA lunatic (or, GAA devotee)?

Each term means a very different thing to me, so I'm curious as to why you continually throw them together.

Iwasfrozen

Leto wrote: »

Out of curiosity, can you please define what you mean by:

(i) gaelgeoir?
(ii) nationalist?
(iii) GAA lunatic (or, GAA devotee)?

Each term means a very different thing to me, so I'm curious as to why you continually throw them together.

I wasn't aware word definitions change with each person. My definition of these words is the exact same as yours.

Focalbhach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I wasn't aware word definitions change with each person. My definition of these words is the exact same as yours.

FFS. As I said, I can't see why you're using three different words as if they all mean the same thing. Your reply is no more enlightening, but not especially surprising.

Iwasfrozen

Leto wrote: »

FFS. As I said, I can't see why you're using three different words as if they all mean the same thing. Your reply is no more enlightening, but not especially surprising.

What exactly are you asking me? I don't see your reasoning behind pulling out one line from a post a few pages back and asking me to explain it. When it has already been talked over to death.

hitbit

Sad but its dead and gone because it was beaten into people at school. Compare its use to that of Welsh particularly by young people and this becomes clear.

hitbit

aDeener

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What exactly are you asking me? I don't see your reasoning behind pulling out one line from a post a few pages back and asking me to explain it. When it has already been talked over to death.

err no it hasn't. you have been rightly pulled up on your rabbling, define what you mean by a gaa lunatic? how does one become a gaa lunatic in your eyes?

Dionysus

hitbit wrote: »

Sad but its dead and gone because it was beaten into people at school.

Jesus wept. :rolleyes:

Focalbhach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What exactly are you asking me? I don't see your reasoning behind pulling out one line from a post a few pages back and asking me to explain it. When it has already been talked over to death.

I'm asking, again, for you to explain what you mean when you talk about gaelgeoirí, what you mean when you talk about nationalists, and what you mean when you talk about "GAA lunatics".

As far as I'm aware, a gaelgeoir is a person who speaks Irish. Nationalism is a particular spectrum of political/ideological positions, and I'm not at all sure which point on that spectrum you're referring to. A GAA lunatic, one can only assume, enjoys gaelic sports such as football and hurling very much.

I have no idea why you assume that a person who ticks one box ticks all three.

sceptre

The "GAA lunatic" stuff is bugger-all to do with the thread topic or any rational discussion of the thread topic. I was sort of hoping that you guys would realise that on your own (particularly as there's an earlier instruction from me to lay off the idiocy) but somehow it's more important to some of you than the actual topic of discussion. Most of the more recent discussion on what a nationalist is is nothing to do with it either, particularly in any posts where it's twinned with this "GAA lunatic" irrelevant stuff. It was irrelevant and close to idiotic when it was originally brought up, it's even less relevant since. Some of you would do well to differentiate between something relevant and something idiotically irrelevant but this sentence is merely a suggestion for your own future lives.

It's nothing to do with the topic of discussion. You can get back on the topic of discussion now. A look at the thread title and an examination of the more rational posts will give you clues as to what the topic is. Knock off the discussion of the "GAA lunatic" stuff and the accompanying nationalist-whatever stuff, find another forum where it's relevant (I'd suggest the GAA forum but they wouldn't have any patience for it either).

On-topic or no topic, your call. I will not look kindly in any way with my mod hat on at anyone who continues what I've mentioned in this post. There's relevant, irrelevant and plain silliness. Aim for the first one.

/mod

nuac

Irish IMHO not dead or extinct, but it's use is declining over the long term, and I think in 50/100 years there may be no native speakers.

We can all speculate on the reasons for that, and there is little point in endlessly arguing about these..

For those of us who would like to language to survive - any ideas?.

My own suggestions.

1. Less of the grammar police stuff.

(i)I went to school with native speakers who laughed heartily at the the teachers' attempts to explain the rules of grammer. They called it Gaeilge na Leabhar.

(ii)Later I saw a bona fide attempt in an organisation to issue reports etc in Irish abandoned because some teachers present started nit picking on grammatical points rather than encouraging the use of Irish.

(iii) English has many loan words borrowed from many languages including Latin and Greek. Why cannot these be used also in Irish without applying the "caol le caol and leathan le leathan" rules, thus creating needless difficulty. E.g telephone comes from the Greek tele = distance, far, and phone or fón = sound, and appears as such in many languages.

Yet in Irish the same word appears as e.g. teileafóin etc - making it more difficult for those learning the language.

The finer points of grammar are fine, but we have to simplify.


2. Scrap all compulsion to use or have Irish

(i) I have heard Gallic spoken in the Hebridies where on enquiry I found there was no compulsion or at the time government help.

(ii) the 2003 Act requirement to translate documents into Irish is a waste of resources. Very few Irish versions of the documents concerned are being bought.

3. Encourage TG4 and Radio na Gaeltachta.

4. Gaelscoileanna

These are an excellent development, as long as parents are sending their children there to learn Irish rather than sending them to the local national school where there may be e.g. traveller children.

cyclopath2001

nuac wrote: »

4. Gaelscoileanna

These are an excellent development, as long as parents are sending their children there to learn Irish rather than sending them to the local national school where there may be e.g. traveller children.

Heaven forbid that 'born-again' Irish speakers might come into contact with members of an authentic group of Irish people.

nuac

Meant to add to my post earlier this evening re means of promoting Irish

5. Relaunch of the Fáinne scheme and signage for business premises indicating willingness to speak Irish.

I know a number of people who are happy to do business or chat in Irish. I believe many others would do so with some encouragement


Slán

Iwasfrozen

nuac wrote: »

5. Relaunch of the Fáinne scheme and signage for business premises indicating willingness to speak Irish.

What was the Fáinne scheme?

nuac

IWF - the Fáinne was a badge in the form of a small silver circle about the size of a cent which indicated that the wearer was interested in speaking Irish.

sceptre

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What was the Fáinne scheme?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fainne

Essentially a basic recognition system for those willing and able to speak Irish to whoever was into it, divided into different levels. A little circular pin-on badge as nuac said.

I used to have a fáinne nua óir but it broke years ago some time in the 90s, there's modern manufacturing (and possibly clumsy feet) for you. They're still available and these days there isn't a test to get one but they're not as popular as they once were among Irish speakers. They've gone through a few rises and falls in popularity in the past few decades. As a subtly obvious recognition system, it's rather excellent. Esperanto should have one:)

Wolfe Tone

nuac wrote: »

IWF - the Fáinne was a badge in the form of a small silver circle about the size of a cent which indicated that the wearer was interested in speaking Irish.

Thats a terrific idea.

Focalbhach

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Thats a terrific idea.

I agree.

hitbit

There is no way 100,000 people speak Irish out side of school on a daily basis. I would hear some of them sometimes but I don't. Its ridiculous to spend millions of € doubling up on road signs etc etc. Can you just imagine a German tourist Baile Atha Cliath or whatever when his map says Dublin. How f*****g stupin is it to have a sign which says Bus in English followed by An Bus in Irish.

hitbit

hitbit

Focalbhach

hitbit wrote: »

There is no way 100,000 people speak Irish out side of school on a daily basis. I would hear some of them sometimes but I don't. Its ridiculous to spend millions of € doubling up on road signs etc etc. Can you just imagine a German tourist Baile Atha Cliath or whatever when his map says Dublin. How f*****g stupin is it to have a sign which says Bus in English followed by An Bus in Irish.

hitbit

hitbit

I do hear people speaking Irish. There. One anecdote on either side.

Millions of euro on road signs? Are you sure?

aDeener

nuac wrote: »

Irish IMHO not dead or extinct, but it's use is declining over the long term, and I think in 50/100 years there may be no native speakers.

We can all speculate on the reasons for that, and there is little point in endlessly arguing about these..

For those of us who would like to language to survive - any ideas?.

My own suggestions.

1. Less of the grammar police stuff.

(i)I went to school with native speakers who laughed heartily at the the teachers' attempts to explain the rules of grammer. They called it Gaeilge na Leabhar.

(ii)Later I saw a bona fide attempt in an organisation to issue reports etc in Irish abandoned because some teachers present started nit picking on grammatical points rather than encouraging the use of Irish.

(iii) English has many loan words borrowed from many languages including Latin and Greek. Why cannot these be used also in Irish without applying the "caol le caol and leathan le leathan" rules, thus creating needless difficulty. E.g telephone comes from the Greek tele = distance, far, and phone or fón = sound, and appears as such in many languages.

Yet in Irish the same word appears as e.g. teileafóin etc - making it more difficult for those learning the language.

The finer points of grammar are fine, but we have to simplify.


2. Scrap all compulsion to use or have Irish

(i) I have heard Gallic spoken in the Hebridies where on enquiry I found there was no compulsion or at the time government help.

(ii) the 2003 Act requirement to translate documents into Irish is a waste of resources. Very few Irish versions of the documents concerned are being bought.

3. Encourage TG4 and Radio na Gaeltachta.

4. Gaelscoileanna

These are an excellent development, as long as parents are sending their children there to learn Irish rather than sending them to the local national school where there may be e.g. traveller children.

i prefer guthán