Is Irish a dead language?

Dionysus

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Heaven forbid that 'born-again' Irish speakers might come into contact with members of an authentic group of Irish people.

Well, I wouldn't want my children to have to endure backward and bigoted English-speaking monoglots, if that's what you really mean by "an authentic group of Irish people".

Get over it.

Kev_ps3

hitbit wrote: »

There is no way 100,000 people speak Irish out side of school on a daily basis. I would hear some of them sometimes but I don't. Its ridiculous to spend millions of € doubling up on road signs etc etc. Can you just imagine a German tourist Baile Atha Cliath or whatever when his map says Dublin. How f*****g stupin is it to have a sign which says Bus in English followed by An Bus in Irish.

hitbit

hitbit

The language is more important than the convenience of foreign tourists.

Dionysus

hitbit wrote: »

There is no way 100,000 people speak Irish out side of school on a daily basis. I would hear some of them sometimes but I don't. Its ridiculous to spend millions of € doubling up on road signs etc etc. Can you just imagine a German tourist Baile Atha Cliath or whatever when his map says Dublin. How f*****g stupin is it to have a sign which says Bus in English followed by An Bus in Irish.

hitbit

hitbit

Your concern for tourists is noted. Although it should, of course, be observed that English is not the native language of German tourists and if you were truly concerned about easing the plight of the poor German tourist you would surely propose that your beloved English be replaced by German-language signs. But no, you'd rather let the hapless tourists endure English-language signs on their visit.

And last I looked, the "English" word 'bus' is merely a shortened form of the Latin 'omnibus', with the same meaning. I trust you will extend your "stupid" observations to seek the removal of the former.

cyclopath2001

Dionysus wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't want my children to have to endure backward and bigoted English-speaking monoglots, if that's what you really mean by "an authentic group of Irish people".

That's very sectarian of you. Surely, your children should learn to live in harmony with all kinds of Irish people? Isn't that more important than learning a language?

Dionysus

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's very sectarian of you. Surely, your children should learn to live in harmony with all kinds of Irish people? Isn't that more important than learning a language?

It is not, in fact, "sectarian" to have higher aspirations for your children than having them associating with the children of closed-minded and ignorant people who have issues with the Irish language. That mentality is so nineteenth century. Why want that for them when they can associate with the children of open-minded and thoughtful parents in the local gaelscoil?

Focalbhach

Dionysus wrote: »

It is not, in fact, "sectarian" to have higher aspirations for your children than having them associating with the children of closed-minded and ignorant people who have issues with the Irish language. That mentality is so nineteenth century. Why want that for them when they can associate with the children of open-minded and thoughtful parents in the local gaelscoil?

Bit of a false dichotomy there, to be fair. I'm not sure generalisations like that help the argument.

Dionysus

Leto wrote: »

Bit of a false dichotomy there, to be fair. I'm not sure you're helping the argument with generalisations like that.

Not really because I'm speaking about the English speaking monoglots who detest the Irish language, and the people who speak it, such as your man. They can certainly be avoided by sending your kids to the local gaelscoil along with other parents who have a more open-minded attitude towards Irish.

Berilium2

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ya, blame the media. Do you inckude Tg4, and R na G, in this or any of the Irish language newspapers and magazines? Talk about a sweeping generalisation.:rolleyes:

If TG4 is an all Irish station, then why do they show American T.V. shows?
And why do all Irish radio stations broadcast Songs in English?

Focalbhach

Dionysus wrote: »

Not really because I'm speaking about the English speaking monoglots who detest the Irish language, and the people who speak it, such as your man. They can certainly be avoided by sending your kids to the local gaelscoil along with other parents who have a more open-minded attitude towards Irish.

The thing is, by "open-minded" you mean "actively positive towards Irish". The two aren't the same. Someone could be open-minded on the issue and still have reasonable concerns about the future of the Irish language in schools (etc.). Tarring people who have problems with the language as ignorant, and painting gaelgeoirs in contrast as beacons of open-mindedness, is unhelpful and polarising, IMO.

Iwasfrozen

Dionysus wrote: »

It is not, in fact, "sectarian" to have higher aspirations for your children than having them associating with the children of closed-minded and ignorant people who have issues with the Irish language. That mentality is so nineteenth century. Why want that for them when they can associate with the children of open-minded and thoughtful parents in the local gaelscoil?

Speaking irish is so seventeenth century. :rolleyes:

That is all.

eddyc

Dionysus wrote: »

Not really because I'm speaking about the English speaking monoglots who detest the Irish language, and the people who speak it, such as your man. They can certainly be avoided by sending your kids to the local gaelscoil along with other parents who have a more open-minded attitude towards Irish.

What makes you think that the people who have a problem with the states treatment of the Irish language are monoglots? And, what is wrong with being one exactly?
What if they would rather have their kids learn German a few hours a day instead, would that be open-minded?

Dionysus

eddyc wrote: »

What makes you think that the people who have a problem with the states treatment of the Irish language are monoglots? And, what is wrong with being one exactly?
What if they would rather have their kids learn German a few hours a day instead, would that be open-minded?

Eddyc, this is not English class but suffice to say "English-speaking monoglots who detest the Irish language" is not the same as "English-speaking monoglots", even if there is a disproportionate (and uber zealous) number of the former on this thread. Most Irish people are English-speaking monoglots but manage to be positive towards the Irish language.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

having learnt French at primary school,as well as secondary, I never found it to be of much use to me, I worked for 4 years in a French multinational,in Dublin and unless your French was of degree standard, as well as having spent a couple of years in France, it was next to useless, as all business was conducted in both English and French.
My time spent there did encourage a healthy dislike of Parisians, however.
The question which needs to be asked is why English speakers, worldwide, (USA, England for example) are so poor at learning other languages.

aDeener

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's strange that you should hold such an opinion, considering you are a massive proponent of compulsory English for the LC.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dionysus

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So, you concede that you were not telling the truth when you wrote: 'I do, however, object to the largely unquestioned presumption that the government should have the authority to tell us which languages we should speak.'?

And if you could tell us how Irish children being forced to learn Shakespeare, Jane Austen and all the rest of that pointless narcissistic artyfarty waffle in the Leaving Cert is something that will benefit their lives, I'm sure builders, plumbers, electricians, mathematicians, accountants, physicists and, well, most professionals and workers on this planet will be enlightened.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

aDeener

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Agreed 100%

but it will not be seriously limited through optional english for the LC

Enkidu

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Hey donegalfella,

Good post. I was wondering about the above. This is possibly off topic, but do you think that Irish is the main reason for our inability to speak a European language.
I would have my suspicions that the reasons most of us don't speak a European language are more closely tied to issues present in the whole Anglosphere.
I think that even with compulsory Irish removed we would still have some trouble. Or in fact the trouble wouldn't be any less.

I believe there is much more resistance to learning a language in general. For instance (totally anecdotal) when I mention I'm learning Irish or Italian to my European friends, they'll just say "Oh, cool" and possibly ask me something about Irish since they may take a passing interest in the idea of a Celtic language. However friends here in Ireland tend to say "Why are you doing that?" for Irish and "Good on ya!/Fair play!" e.t.c. for Italian. I think these last two reactions are two sides of the same coin. Learning a language is considered some sort of Herculean task. To expend such efforts on something useless is considered bizarre, but on a useful language like Italian it is considered a great accomplishment. Since the mainland Europeans just consider learning a language another thing you can just do (either for fun, for work, for access to literature, e.t.c.) they tend not regard learning one as either pointless or incredible.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Kepti

Leto wrote: »

The thing is, by "open-minded" you mean "actively positive towards Irish". The two aren't the same. Someone could be open-minded on the issue and still have reasonable concerns about the future of the Irish language in schools (etc.). Tarring people who have problems with the language as ignorant, and painting gaelgeoirs in contrast as beacons of open-mindedness, is unhelpful and polarising, IMO.

Join date 2001? You need to post more often.

LordSutch

Well Iv'e worked in Dublin on & off for twenty+ years, & I have never come across anybody speaking the language, not on a bus, not in a shop, not on a Tram, and not on a DART, (now I am not saying it doesn't exist), I am just pointing out the obvious fact that Irish as a spoken language is dead to the majority of people in their working life (in Greater Dublin) & possibly further afield.

Focalbhach

Enkidu wrote: »

I believe there is much more resistance to learning a language in general. For instance (totally anecdotal) when I mention I'm learning Irish or Italian to my European friends, they'll just say "Oh, cool" and possibly ask me something about Irish since they may take a passing interest in the idea of a Celtic language. However friends here in Ireland tend to say "Why are you doing that?" for Irish and "Good on ya!/Fair play!" e.t.c. for Italian. I think these last two reactions are two sides of the same coin. Learning a language is considered some sort of Herculean task. To expend such efforts on something useless is considered bizarre, but on a useful language like Italian it is considered a great accomplishment. Since the mainland Europeans just consider learning a language another thing you can just do (either for fun, for work, for access to literature, e.t.c.) they tend not regard learning one as either pointless or incredible.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

I think that's quite an astute observation. There are undoubtedly problems with language learning/teaching, and attitudes to language learning in general, in this country (as well as farther afield in the anglosphere).

Focalbhach

LordSutch wrote: »

Well Iv'e worked in Dublin on & off for twenty+ years, & I have never come across anybody speaking the language, not on a bus, not in a shop, not on a Tram, and not on a DART, (now I am not saying it doesn't exist), I am just pointing out the obvious fact that Irish as a spoken language is dead to the majority of people in their working life (in Greater Dublin) & possibly further afield.

That the majority of people don't or can't use Irish isn't in question - it doesn't mean that it's a dead language.

Iwasfrozen

Leto wrote: »

That the majority of people don't or can't use Irish isn't in question - it doesn't mean that it's a dead language.

And yet it is their tax money being wasted to teach children irish who don't want to learn it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wolfe Tone

Many studying the French language envision themselves visiting France, conversing with French people, reading French books and newspapers, and maybe even one day living and working in France. They don't learn French so that they can assume a French identity; they wish to enrich their lives, expand their horizons, and give themselves additional professional opportunities.

Then again, many study French so as to be allowed to attend the NUI collages. That was the only reason I considered learning it.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Then again, many study French so as to be allowed to attend the NUI collages. That was the only reason I considered learning it.

Heh, that was the same reason why I had irish grinds rather then dropping it.

LordSutch

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Great post, I had no idea about the 1851 census, very interesting to note.