Is Irish a dead language?

Permabear

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Wolfe Tone

donegalfella wrote: »

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What if I dont want to do a third language?

Enkidu

donegalfella wrote: »

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True, many aspire to do so and also I would agree that precious time is being wasted on Irish early in primary school. However I still think that there is a strange block about foreign languages. For several people here, even if they want to learn a foreign language, it remains an unfulfilled goal. "Oh, I'd love to speak Spanish someday". Particularly if they haven't half-learned one by adulthood.

However on the continent far more people will just learn it, even in adulthood. People remain at the "aspiring" level in the anglophone world very often. Of course this is not a unique phenomena, apparently it happened/happens in the Arabic-speaking world.
Naturally, this is separate from the issue of Irish being optional, for which several good arguments have been provided. I just think it's an interesting (off-)topic.

Rebelheart

donegalfella wrote: »

In the 1851 census, just 2.4 percent of the population of Leinster said that they could speak Irish.

And in other breaking news, after the holocaust there were fewer Jews around....:rolleyes:


I can just see yourself and Daniel O'Connell sitting together in 1847 gorging on food and having some pseudo-intellectual conversation about utilitarianism and the many positives connected with all the poor people dying, and with them that "backward" (as you've termed it) language, both of which will allow the new Ireland to march towards prosperity, progress and enlightenment. The dichotomies of ideologues are consistently neat if nothing else.

Your statistic is also incorrect, but let's not complicate things with facts, let alone warnings from contemporaries such as Robert MacAdam that Irish speakers were not admitting knowledge of the language to the census enumerators partly because of what he termed a "false shame".

Permabear

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Focalbhach

donegalfella wrote: »

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I don't see Irish and a third language as being in opposition. I'd be very happy to see both included in the curriculum in some form. For the record, I speak good French and Spanish (enough to converse with doctors about my health in hospital in both countries!), and have some German, Mandarin and British Sign Language. I'm all for language-learning.

To address your first paragraph: I am not interested in Irish as a means of assuming an identity. I don't see it as a political issue. I find that it enriches my life and expands my horizons. It does sometimes come in useful in my professional life, but that's an added bonus rather than a goal (for me; others may well differ).

There is nothing wrong with being an anglophone nation. I would just rather that didn't mean that we were solely restricted to English, as is often the case here.

daithicarr

i agree with Leto , learning irish doesnt restrict you from other languages, i know a good few children and young aduts who speak irish and another european langauge , and a few who would be of non irish decent and partial irish decent who speak, english, irish, their parent(s) native language and another european language, these are people who have gone through the irish education system, dont seem to have the same hangup about learning irish, all the ones i know enjoyed it greatly, and also didnt seem to have the same block to learning other languages, two i know even took a second european language, so when they were finished they could speak 5 languages with reasonable fluency.

These people are not noticaby brighter than anyone else i know, the only difference i can see is that they come from a background of learning another language at a early age, id rather see the how language taught reformed so peope will come out with 3,4 or 5 languages.

As fir the language being dead, if there are speakers of it then it is alive. whether its declining or growing is another matter, but it seems from reading this very long thread most peoples views of the language seem to be based on personal opinion rather than evidence "i hear no one speak it , there for its dead".

Permabear

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Enkidu

donegalfella wrote: »

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There isn't one. As far as I can tell the massive focus on Irish doesn't really seem to achieve anything. People don't even come out of it speaking Irish.

I know several children of immigrants who love Irish in school, like daithicarr I believe this is because they come from a background where learning languages is more normal. So learning an old language is like having classes in some traditional musical instrument.

I think in all respects, even ignoring the issue of the Irish language, we need to make language learning more commonplace. There will be some issues though. The first one would be which language? People have tastes in languages. For example even though I can read French (mainly to read some Mathematical texts and articles in their original), I just don't like French. I don't like the grammar and the sounds or forming the words in my mouth. In my experience an awful lot of school children don't like the European language they are assigned. I know one could just say "tough, this is what you are learning", but this will probably result in as little learning as of the language as is currently the case with Irish. Now we could get around this by offering French and German in primary school (French is the most commonly assigned language, but most kids who don't like French would be happy with German). However this means we'd need more teachers. I'm rambling now, not sure what exactly we should do.

Permabear

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Enkidu

donegalfella wrote: »

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This doesn't surprise me. First of all, since language isn't genetic (obviously), Irish is effectively another foreign language to the vast majority of Ireland. As a language I believe it is much more difficult to learn than most other European languages for an English speaker, since it has Celtic grammatical features (verbal noun constructions, lenition, eclipses) that don't exist in any other (non-Celtic) Indo-European language. Hence without a lot of effort most people will not be fluent.

I'm sure a lot of people who did higher level Irish remember their teachers not being able to explain points of grammar.

daithicarr

if they are hired for something they should be competant, as should other subject teachers. which unfortunatly isint always the case.

personally id like to see a proper debate nationaly on Irish, to either drop it as a complusory subject for all ages or maybe just leaving cert to having proper irish language education and more immersion schools and letting the electorate decide the issue. the current half assed approach is useless, why waste money on achiving nothing, either reform it or drop it.

daithicarr

Enkidu wrote: »

This doesn't surprise me. First of all, since language isn't genetic (obviously), Irish is effectively another foreign language to the vast majority of Ireland. As a language I believe it is much more difficult to learn than most other European languages for an English speaker, since it has Celtic grammatical features (verbal noun constructions, lenition, eclipses) that don't exist in any other (non-Celtic) Indo-European language. Hence without a lot of effort most people will not be fluent.

I'm sure a lot of people who did higher level Irish remember their teachers not being able to explain points of grammar.

i dont know about more difficult, i have tried learning hungarian and bits of polish, find them much harder to learn, even to understand. but then thats just my personal observation

Enkidu

daithicarr wrote: »

i dont know about more difficult, i have tried learning hungarian and bits of polish, find them much harder to learn, even to understand. but then thats just my personal observation

Hungarian isn't Indo-European, but Finno-Ugric and I would agree that they are far harder languages to learn. It would be like trying to learn Arabic or Japanese, totally different language family. Polish, although Indo-European, is also the most grammatically complex Slavic language. I do think however that Irish is about as difficult as it gets if you stay within the European languages. Of course there are other languages up there with it (Icelandic, Welsh, Polish as you mentioned).

You've tried Hungarian, Polish and Irish? You obviously like a challenge.:)

daithicarr

doing hungarian and irish at the moment with the aim of learning them. also tried french and italian in school. i dont think any are harder than each other. they are all hard if you ask me

astrofool

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What if I dont want to do a third language?

Go to another country and apply for an NUI there, you'll only need two languages for an Irish third level course.

Wolfe Tone

astrofool wrote: »

Go to another country and apply for an NUI there, you'll only need two languages for an Irish third level course.

So I would have to leave Ireland and get educated elsewhere? Then apply to an NUI?

astrofool

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So I would have to leave Ireland and get educated elsewhere? Then apply to an NUI?

Yep, only people educated in Ireland need to know English, Irish, and another language to get into NUI courses.

I know one guy who took the A-Levels to avoid having to do Irish when applying to an NUI (he lived in Ireland).

Focalbhach

donegalfella wrote: »

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I can't tell you why other languages aren't included on the primary curriculum. I would be very happy to see that changed. Either way, I think the assumption that the abolition of Irish would result in another language (one language? A choice of languages? What implications for teacher training?) taking its place is simplistic and far from a given.

Considering the limited success of our 'third language' teaching at second level, I think language teaching methods in Ireland moreso than languages offered are the main issue to be addressed. Recognising that 12 is not the optimal age to start learning a language, I also recognise that it is possible to learn and speak new languages well into adulthood - writing about a language for 5 years and only learning to use it orally to communicate with actual real-life people, in a very structured setting, in the final year of secondary instruction seems to me to invert the natural order.

donegalfella wrote: »

I agree. I would love to see more modern European languages spoken here. I fail to see the point of this monocular focus on Irish.

If you're referring to widely-spoken European languages, please say so. I'm aware that it's the common term for the languages offered at second level, but in the context of this discussion 'modern' is an ambiguous word (since Irish is frequently cast by non-supporters as somehow 'backward'). Irish is a living, minority, modern European language; it is not a widely-spoken one. That said, what monocular focus on Irish are you talking about? My support for other languages is quite clear, I would have thought.

charlemont

most of the children of foreigners that i know at school all learn gaeilge and are reasonable fluent at it, in most cases better than the irish kids at it.......

Wolfe Tone

astrofool wrote: »

Yep, only people educated in Ireland need to know English, Irish, and another language to get into NUI courses.

I know one guy who took the A-Levels to avoid having to do Irish when applying to an NUI (he lived in Ireland).

Oh right, thats bolllux really having a third language requirement for courses which have nothing to do with continental languages at all.

astrofool

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Oh right, thats bolllux really having a third language requirement for courses which have nothing to do with continental languages at all.

So I presume it's also bolllux having the Irish requirement then

Bebs

Why don't we just have Irish as an opt-in element of our society. If you want to learn it then the facilities will be there in primary and secondary education. If you don't then there is no obligation upon you to do so. Such a situation would afford the opportunity to learn Irish to those who want to learn it while avoiding forcing an unwanted language down the throats of others.

Permabear

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Wolfe Tone

astrofool wrote: »

So I presume it's also bolllux having the Irish requirement then

Yes I would agree that there should be no requirement for Irish, or any subject, that has nothing to do with said course. Currently it doesn't make much difference because you have to do Irish.

nuac

would support Bebs proposal to scrap all the compulsion to learn Irish.

Presently the number of native and/or habitual Irish speakers is put at between 20,000 and 70,000. A very small proportion of the population after all that has been done to promote Irish.

The language might have a better chance of survival amongst a small group of users who like it and like to use it, rather than putting most of the population off it by forcing them to learn Irish. Many do not want to spend time on it, and would prefer to spend the time and energy on something else.

Personally I learned Irish at school with native speakers from the main Gaeltachtaí, and am happy to speak and promote it.

Pete_Cavan

I think Irish should remain a compulsory subject for all. I did the LC five years ago and afaik the curriculum hasnt changed much since then. The main thing putting students off learning Irish is that there is a lot of poetry, pros and history of the language to be learned, particularly at higher level. What I would do to make the subject more popular would be split it into two different syllabuses as suggested here http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/ultach/2010/03/25/pupils-%E2%80%98ignored%E2%80%99-in-new-irish-syllabus/. All students would still have to learn Irish but they would have a choice of which syllabus they want to do. Lets just call them Grade 1 and Grade 2 for handiness.

Grade 1 would focus on interpriting and understanding the language and would be based on the current paper 1 with less focus on literature. It would prepare the students to speak the language and hopefully lead to it being used more in everyday life. There would still be a higher and lower level.
Grade 2 would be designed for those with a higher standard of Irish and those wishing to study the language further at third level. The literature and history of the language aspects would be focused on here. Grade 2 Irish would be required for some third level courses, such as teaching. This would allow the language to develop and evolve with modern literature, etc. resulting from the increased standard. Grade 2 Irish would be required for some third level courses, such as teaching. I don’t see a need for ordinary level here.

Iwasfrozen

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I think Irish should remain a compulsory subject for all.

Why? Why do you think people who don't like irish should have to learn it?

Pete_Cavan

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why? Why do you think people who don't like irish should have to learn it?

This is Ireland. Irish is the first language of our constitution and it is an important part of our cultural heritage and national identity. We cant just let it die off in the majority of the country and leave it to remain only in small pockets along the west coast. Im sure the majority of Irish people share this view, and setting aside the difficulties involved with learning the language, Im sure most people do not dislike the language itself.

Most people agree the reason most people dont want to learn Irish is because of the way it is taught. Change the way it is taught to make it easier to learn with more of an emphasis on speaking the language to allow people to converse in Irish and I'm sure most people will not have a problem learning the language. If people are able to converse in Irish they are more likely to use it which make it more relevant as a subject.

I am assuming you do not like Irish. Why is this? Is it because it was forced down your throat for 14 years in school to very little effect or do you just have an inherent hatred of the language?

Iwasfrozen

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This is Ireland. Irish is the first language of our constitution and it is an important part of our cultural heritage and national identity.

While it is true that irish is the first official language of our constitution school systems are under no constitutional obligation to provide education in irish language educations in our schools. As per article eight of the constitution:

Bunreacht na hEireann wrote:

Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We cant just let it die off in the majority of the country and leave it to remain only in small pockets along the west coast. Im sure the majority of Irish people share this view, and setting aside the difficulties involved with learning the language, Im sure most people do not dislike the language itself.

I'm sure you are right in saying most people don't want to see the language die. But why must the onus be put on children to learn it? If the majority of people don't want to see it die off then why don't they learn it instead of forcing it on their children?

It seems to me that people are all for the language as long as they don't have to learn or speak it.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Most people agree the reason most people dont want to learn Irish is because of the way it is taught. Change the way it is taught to make it easier to learn with more of an emphasis on speaking the language to allow people to converse in Irish and I'm sure most people will not have a problem learning the language. If people are able to converse in Irish they are more likely to use it which make it more relevant as a subject.

I have no doubt placing more emphasison the spoken aspect of the language will encourage more people to learn it and even enjoy it. But there will always be some people who don't want to learn it. Regardless of the way it is taught.

Irish needs to be both reformed and made optional doing one without the other just isn't enough in my book.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I am assuming you do not like Irish. Why is this?

It's not that I don't like irish. I didn't like learning it. I saw it as being pointless and would have much rather spent my time working on my maths.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is it because it was forced down your throat for 14 years in school to very little effect or do you just have an inherent hatred of the language?

Partly the former but not completly. I also didn't like the amount of time being spent on it, 4.3 hours a week. That I thought would be better spent learning subjects I considered relevent to my leaving cert results.