Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No Pearse was excuted, it was those who came after that freed this country.

Within a few decades, the new Irish state had completely outlawed contraception. It rampantly banned works by Ireland's own best writers, including Joyce, Beckett, Shaw, O'Casey, O'Faolain, and Clarke—not to mention international luminaries such as Hemingway and Steinbeck. By the 1950s, by which time poet Robert Graves was able to state that Ireland had "the fiercest literary censorship this side of the Iron Curtain," we had become one of the most insular, parochial, and anti-intellectual nations in Europe. The legacy of that anti-intellectualism is still readily apparent today.

Are you blaming Pearse, a man who had been dead for 30 years for this?
Or Irish language enthusists, I'm confused.

The fact that rabidly anglophobic nationalists wish to use the Irish language to differentiate Ireland from England shows that Irish is still kinda part of our culture? What culture? No culture I want to be involved with, that's for sure.

Nice to see you have a nice balanced opinion.:rolleyes:
No, that the people were swayed by these sentiments show it is part of our culture. If you dont want to be part of it then fine.
Your finished school. You dont have to speak Irish anymore.;)

Enkidu

Perhaps an interesting link is this one:
http://content.yudu.com/Library/A14u8q/SuirbhmrnaGaeilge/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=

It's a survey of attitudes to Irish in North Antrim.

daithicarr

hmm something similar for the republic as a whole might make it clearer what strategy to persue due to the wants of the people as a whole. of course that particular report did have defeciencys, its highly likely that a number of people who had no interest or were opposed to irish didnt even bother answer the servey.

Enkidu

daithicarr wrote: »

hmm something similar for the republic as a whole might make it clearer what strategy to persue due to the wants of the people as a whole. of course that particular report did have defeciencys, its highly likely that a number of people who had no interest or were opposed to irish didnt even bother answer the servey.

Yes, quite possible. I would love to see a proper survey done here in the republic.

deise go deo

Very intresting, Yes it is possible that people who had no intrest in Irish just dident respond, however its nice to see such a positive attude towards the Irish language from this area. I would really like a survey like this to be done across the republic. I think it would show once and for all that the people are not nearly so hostile to Irish as some would like to beleive.:)

eddyc

deise go deo wrote: »

Very intresting, Yes it is possible that people who had no intrest in Irish just dident respond, however its nice to see such a positive attude towards the Irish language from this area. I would really like a survey like this to be done across the republic. I think it would show once and for all that the people are not nearly so hostile to Irish as some would like to beleive.:)

I would agree with you, I don't see why anyone would be hostile against a language. What I disagree with is government policy of making it the citizens duty to learn this language.

I agree with the survey, but I would want it to be done by a university from outside Ireland, so to remove any conflicts of interest.

evenmicheal

Have no problem with the government promoting the language and trying to grow it. What my problem is the waste of money shown by the governemnt at times. The cost of translating local authority documents into Irish is crazy and how many people read them. Also making it an official working language of the EU does not make any sense.

Another thing. Do Irish Rail really need to announce the details and stops in Irish. Also the signs "do not cross this line" is in Irish at Dart stations. They seem to be more interested in promoting the language than peoples safety.

oscarBravo

evenmicheal wrote: »

Also the signs "do not cross this line" is in Irish at Dart stations. They seem to be more interested in promoting the language than peoples safety.

This. There are signs along some of the roads on Achill Island: "Aire, ailtreacha árda." Because non-Irish speakers don't need to watch out for high cliffs...

deise go deo

evenmicheal wrote: »

Have no problem with the government promoting the language and trying to grow it. What my problem is the waste of money shown by the governemnt at times. The cost of translating local authority documents into Irish is crazy and how many people read them. Also making it an official working language of the EU does not make any sense.

By Colm Ó Broin on Inside Ireland.

''A regular charge made against the Irish language is that too much money is spent on it. Numerous complaints have been made, for example, about the Official Languages Act and the granting of official status to Irish in the European Union.

Much has been said about the cost of translating documents into Irish, documents which are rarely if ever read.

However some people will complain about documents being translated to Irish even if they are read, for example, correspondence between the North's Department of Education and Irish medium schools sparked criticism in 2009.

There are those who have genuine concerns about money spent on the Irish language, but others will complain no matter how minuscule the amount spent on it.

For example there were complaints when it was announced in 2006 that “Éire” was to be written alongside “Ireland” on Irish government letterheads and nameplates in the European Union. In the context of an EU budget of €112 billion that year, concern over the cost of a few nameplates is not credible.

There have been two main stages in the decline of the public use of Irish.

First of all knowledge of English was required to simply get by in life. In Ireland this was done by British authorities who banned Irish from much of public life and later by Irish governments who refused to provide public services through Irish.

The second stage set in once people had learned English, the overt oppression could be stopped, but the denial of language rights for Irish speakers could then be justified because they could now speak English.

I myself have known people who support Irish, but who regard people who want to speak the language when they are dealing with their local government as “awkward” because “they can speak English.”

The attitude is; if you can speak English then you must speak English, which leads to a policy of compulsory, forced, lifelong English.

If you are only allowed to speak Irish to friends and family, when no-one who doesn't understand the language is around, you reduce the language to an oddity, a private practice which is not to be seen as a normal part of Irish life.

This has led to a situation where in many was it is considered “abnormal” to speak Irish in Ireland. Indeed one of the principal aims of the State's Irish language body, Foras na Gaeilge, is to “normalise” the Irish language.

And while some people like to be different from the mainstream, the vast majority of people don't.

I will give those who complain about the money spent on Irish the benefit of the doubt and assume that they don't realise the repressive effect on the Irish language of not providing public services through the language.

The Official Languages Act has come in for some criticism since its ratification in 2003. This act merely attempts to increase the amount of services available in Irish, it comes nowhere near actually guaranteeing equality for Irish speakers in their own country.

Much has been said about the money spent on translating official documents to Irish, and there are many Irish speakers who would agree that there are more productive ways to spend this money.

Few of them, however, would object to the principle that Irish speakers have the basic right to access public documents in the language. The right to deal with the State through Irish has been confirmed by the Supreme Court, a right which is based on the Irish Constitution.

The one fail safe way to ensure that money is not spent on translating documents into Irish or on services in Irish, would be to remove the language's status as the official and national language of Ireland.

Considerably less has be said about the lack of services, especially health services, for the thousands of people since the founding of the state who didn't speak English.
These people were simply ignored, they were non-people in the eyes of official Ireland. Indeed Ireland for centuries has been a cold house for Irish people who don't speak English, and it remains so to this day.

In 2005 Irish was recognized as an official language of the European Union, a decision that was also subject to criticism from people in Ireland, but virtually none at all in the rest of Europe.

Many Irish speakers and supporters of the language have also been sceptical of the benefits of this move.

To see the effects of Irish not having official status in the EU however, all we need to do is look at what would happen if another language, for example German, had its official status removed.

Given that a large percentage of laws come from Europe, English would be required to get a job as a lawyer, police officer, civil servant, or in any area of life in Germany in which knowledge of the law is required.

Without translation, the laws, and their impact on life would have to be discussed in English. Newspapers, radio and television would have to use English to report on them.

And finally, members of the German government and parliament would not only have to speak English to understand the laws, they would have to debate them in English as well, in the cabinet room and on the floor of the Bundestag.

The only way this could be avoided is if the laws are translated into German, and surely it makes more sense to do this centrally in Brussels than to ask every lawyer, police officer, civil servant, journalist, parliamentarian and government minister to do it themselves.

Therefore without recognition at EU level Irish will forever be left in the halfpenny place in Ireland, it will be merely a decoration, never to be taken seriously as a normal spoken language.

I don't believe that Irish should be forced on people in Ireland if they don't want it, but I also equally believe that English should not be forced on people in Ireland.

Often in the debate on the Irish language terms such as “fanatic” and “extremist” are used. If we accept that an Irish language fanatic is someone who wants to force Irish on others, then it stands to reason that someone who wants to force English on other people is an English language fanatic.

By failing to provide public services in Irish the authorities in Ireland are forcing English on people. In relation to the cost, Irish speakers pay their taxes too, so they also pay for these services.

It is hardly a peculiar desire after all, to want to live your life through Irish, in Ireland, the same as most of the world's population want to be able to live their lives through the medium of their native languages.

If people in Ireland who want to live their lives through Irish are deemed odd then so too must the 50 million people in England who want to live their lives through English, the 40 million people in Poland who want to live their lives through Polish or the five million Finns who want to live their lives through Finnish.

It might be argued that this is not comparing like with like, that people in England, Poland and Finland speak their languages because they're the normal everyday languages of their societies.
But the reason they're the normal everyday languages of their societies is that people in these three sample countries have made a collective decision to speak their native languages.

English people speak English because it's the English language, Polish people speak Polish is because it's the Polish language and the same principle holds true for Finland and numerous other countries.
At various points in their histories they could all have abandoned their native languages, like most people in Ireland did, but they choose not to.

Irish people who speak Irish are no different to them, and they should not be punished because the rest of society decided to switch to English.''

Another thing. Do Irish Rail really need to announce the details and stops in Irish. Also the signs "do not cross this line" is in Irish at Dart stations. They seem to be more interested in promoting the language than peoples safety.

Why shouldent they make announcments as Gaeilge? It is an Irish company after all.
As for the sign. Was there an English Trandlation close by?

daithicarr

evenmicheal wrote: »

Have no problem with the government promoting the language and trying to grow it. What my problem is the waste of money shown by the governemnt at times. The cost of translating local authority documents into Irish is crazy and how many people read them. Also making it an official working language of the EU does not make any sense.

The government seems quite capable of wasting money across the board and spending it in ways that seems to get little practical return. inefficiency and incompetence seem to the order of the day with them.

i think they are happy to let this go on as it is regarding irish instead of asking awkward questions like should irish be compulsory, why spend money on it if its not achieving something, should we reform the teaching so the money is spent in a way which gets meaningful results or abandon it, are more gaelscoils wanted and required etc.

P. Breathnach

oscarBravo wrote: »

This. There are signs along some of the roads on Achill Island: "Aire, ailtreacha árda." Because non-Irish speakers don't need to watch out for high cliffs...

It's one way to increase the percentage of our population who understand Irish: send those who don't off the edge of a cliff.

I'm against the pettiness enshrined in the Official Languages Act. In particular, I think safety notices should be comprehensible to as many people as possible. That is why ideograms are so widely used.

And while I'm posting, I'll mention another thing that irritates me: the very poor quality of Irish used in some signage. "Cloichíní beaga scaoilte", FFS! Or how about "Taisteal go mall" when there is the more authentic "Tóg bog é" (which I have seen).

evenmicheal

deise go deo wrote: »

By Colm Ó Broin on Inside Ireland.

Why shouldent they make announcments as Gaeilge? It is an Irish company after all.
As for the sign. Was there an English Trandlation close by?

There is an english translation futher along down the track but not directly beside the Irish. Can't understand why we need the Irish sign there. Is not going to help grow the language and is only a danger for passengers.

What we need is to teach Irish correctly in primary schools. When I finished school at 18 I knew how to speak French better than Irish and I only learned French for five years. Have being learing Irish badly since five and still can't speak it.

Wolfe Tone

I dont see any problem with having safety notices in Irish, if accompanied by an english translation. Although in Gaeltacht regions it should be exclusively Irish signage.

oscarBravo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Although in Gaeltacht regions it should be exclusively Irish signage.

You don't see a problem with having safety signs in a language tourists can't read?

deise go deo

evenmicheal wrote: »

There is an english translation futher along down the track but not directly beside the Irish. Can't understand why we need the Irish sign there. Is not going to help grow the language and is only a danger for passengers.

Well unless they walk into it or something I dont think an Irish sign is a danger to pasengers. It probably wont help them, but its not going to make them cross the line either.:pac:

What we need is to teach Irish correctly in primary schools. When I finished school at 18 I knew how to speak French better than Irish and I only learned French for five years. Have being learing Irish badly since five and still can't speak it.

Irish in school dose need to be changed, Its just not working as it is. Its not too late for you though, You have plenty of time to learn Irish if you want.

deise go deo

oscarBravo wrote: »

You don't see a problem with having safety signs in a language tourists can't read?

Well I think road signs etc in gaelthacht areas should be Irish only.
Safety signs are another mater however. They should be in Irish and English. Just makes sence.

P. Breathnach

deise go deo wrote: »

Well I think road signs etc in gaelthacht areas should be Irish only.
Safety signs are another mater however. They should be in Irish and English. Just makes sence.

And what about tourists who are not very good with either Irish or English?

I'm not making a petty point: I have, for example, encountered French visitors in Connemara with very little English (and no Irish). That's why I suggested a few posts back that ideograms are best for safety notices. I don't object to the addition of words to assist those who do not relate well to visual imagery.

deise go deo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And what about tourists who are not very good with either Irish or English?

I'm not making a petty point: I have, for example, encountered French visitors in Connemara with very little English (and no Irish). That's why I suggested a few posts back that ideograms are best for safety notices. I don't object to the addition of words to assist those who do not relate well to visual imagery.

Well wathever floats yer boat, If they are more effective I wouldent have any problem with them.

maynooth_rules

Alaways wanted to be a primary school teacher, but because I was not strong at irish I couldnt become one here so went for secondary instead. Hand on heart it is still primary that I want. Really grates me that my lack of strength at a language that means nothing to me and has no relevance to anything in my life should have prevented me from my dream job

deise go deo

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Alaways wanted to be a primary school teacher, but because I was not strong at irish I couldnt become one here so went for secondary instead. Hand on heart it is still primary that I want. Really grates me that my lack of strength at a language that means nothing to me and has no relevance to anything in my life should have prevented me from my dream job

How would you have tought Irish to the students?

Permabear

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Rebelheart

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Alaways wanted to be a primary school teacher, but because I was not strong at irish I couldnt become one here so went for secondary instead. Hand on heart it is still primary that I want. Really grates me that my lack of strength at a language that means nothing to me and has no relevance to anything in my life should have prevented me from my dream job

And how many people have not been able to join the Garda because they did not know Pythagoras's theorem, or trigonometry or other stuff which has no bearing on a Garda's job or interaction with the public? Loads!

And don't even start with the exclusion of people from such posts who don't have a grasp of people like William Shakespeare and others on the (quite ridiculous) English syllabus.

You can easily go back and do the requisite Irish qualification at night to become a primary school teacher. It is entirely your choice not to do so. Each year you "lament" your situation, you choose not to change it. If you really wanted to become a primary teacher you would get that qualification. No excuses. No scapegoats. Take responsibility for your situation.

In those areas which still have no Gaelscoil, I would expect that a teacher in any school my child is forced to attend (because gaelscoileanna do not exist) is competent enough to talk to my child in Irish and to teach him. I do not expect my gasúr's standards to be lowered by actually going to school!

PS: In Ratoath, Co Meath at present there are more than the required number of students to justify the building of the new Gaelscoil. Yet the Department of Education denies this right to all these parents and children on funding grounds. So the kids are forced to attend the English-language school. Such situations are replicated across Ireland but nobody here would even acknowledge this reality.

Rebelheart

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So you're claiming that you live in an officially-designated Gaeltacht and all the road signs are not in Irish alone?

Care to give a name of this (imaginary) place?

PS: And I'm sure you've lowered yourself to speaking to "most people" - perish the thought - in order to deduce their views on this issue. Not.

Rebelheart

oscarBravo wrote: »

This. There are signs along some of the roads on Achill Island: "Aire, ailtreacha árda." Because non-Irish speakers don't need to watch out for high cliffs...

And neither do non-English speakers, it now appears. Well done.

Rebelheart

oscarBravo wrote: »

You don't see a problem with having safety signs in a language tourists can't read?

Yes, because all the tourists to Ireland can read English.:rolleyes:

The delusions of the "all roads lead to English" brigade here are something fierce.

deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No, those are road signs, not safty signs. Do people have a proplem realising that Stop and Stad are the same. They are on an Internationaly recognised template for roadsigns. Stop = Red Hectagon. etc

How do you know? Have you asked them? Forgive me if I dont use your area as a template for all the other gaeltachts in the country. Why do you want to foist English onto people liveing in Gaelthachts who want Irish?

Wolfe Tone

oscarBravo wrote: »

You don't see a problem with having safety signs in a language tourists can't read?

Not all tourists can read english. Should we have signs in every language?

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Not all tourists can read english. Should we have signs in every language?

A hell of a lot more speak english then irish. This is the kind of pettiness I hate about gaelgeoirs...

daithicarr

lots of tourists cant read english either

Iwasfrozen

daithicarr wrote: »

lots of tourists cant read english either

.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A hell of a lot more speak english then irish. This is the kind of pettiness I hate about gaelgeoirs...