Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And in non-gaeltacht areas the local language is english yet that doesn't stop signs being wrote in irish aswell as english. This is the kind of pettiness I'm talking about.

There is English on the sign is there not?
Whats the problem, Who is it hurting if the Irish version of a placename is also included?

No because, using your logic signs should only be wrote in the native language of the local populace. I assume then that you are in favour of only english language signs in non-gaeltacht areas?

What would that acheive?
Why undertake the cost of replacing the existing Bi-lingual signs with English only signs. What possible reason can you see for this?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

There is English on the sign is there not?
Whats the problem, Who is it hurting if the Irish version of a placename is also included?

The above poster wrote this:

Daithicarr wrote:

Its not really pettiness, the local language is designated as irish in the gaeltacht, so there for the signs are in irish.

Now there is nothing wrong with having bilingual road signs outside the gaeltacht so what is wrong with having them inside the gaeltacht?

deise go deo wrote: »

What would that acheive?
Why undertake the cost of replacing the existing Bi-lingual signs with English only signs. What possible reason can you see for this?

A standered system throughout the country.

We wouldn't uproot all signs and replace them on one day, rather old signs that are going to be replaced naturally would be replaced with bilingual signs. That wouldn't cost anything.

Permabear

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deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The above poster wrote this:
Now there is nothing wrong with having bilingual road signs outside the gaeltacht so what is wrong with having them inside the gaeltacht?

Because its a gaeltacht.
Kinda goes against the whole trend of promoating the Irish language.
Very small point true, Wouldent make any difference really, Still though, mixed signals.

A standered system throughout the country.

We wouldn't uproot all signs and replace them on one day, rather old signs that are going to be replaced naturally would be replaced with bilingual signs. That wouldn't cost anything.

Fine, slowly slowly catchy monkey. Still I cant see any reason to do it.
Some gaelthacht placenames have no English translation. Would you suggest makeing one up?

Whats wrong with having Irish only Roadsigns in the Gaelthacht?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Because its a gaeltacht.
Kinda goes against the whole trend of promoating the Irish language.
Very small point true, Wouldent make any difference really, Still though, mixed signals.

If the signs in the gaeltacht are printed with only the the native language of the local populace then signs outside the gaeltacht should be the same. It stands to sense.

deise go deo wrote: »

Fine, slowly slowly catchy monkey. Still I cant see any reason to do it.
Some gaelthacht placenames have no English translation. Would you suggest makeing one up?

Whats wrong with having Irish only Roadsigns in the Gaelthacht?

No, we wouldn't make one up. the few places in the gaeltacht that don't have an english translation would simply be wrote in their irish version.

Nothing. What's wrong with having english only roadsigns in non-gaeltacht areas?

deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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In the 20s - 30s maybe Irish was tought to be more important than other subjects. But I dont think it infringes on them now. Our Education system demands a very high level of maths in the LC. Again Insular schools?
What makes you think Irish schools are any more insular than other countries?

The number one criterion for a primary teacher in this country is that he or she have good Irish. Shure, a "D" in ordinary-level maths will do you grand—but we have to have that honour in Irish.

Do other cuntries teach vectors, matrices, Algebra, trigonometry etc in their primary schools? Do you beleive Irish should not be tought in Primary school. If you beleive it should be tought dose it not make sence to ensure that thoes who teach it should be competent in it?

Meanwhile, new studies suggest that female teachers' anxiety about maths at primary level may affect the future maths achievement of girls.

But we can ignore that. As long as everyone can ask permission in Irish to go to the toilet, all will be well with the world.

You seam to think a teacher being good at Irish somehow damages their ability to teach other subjects.
Surely that study is more of an argument for raising the maths standard than lowering the Irish standard?

Enkidu

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

During the same period we also attracted Erwin Schrödinger to the country to lead DIAS, which is currently headed by Arthur Jaffe an international expert on quantum field theory. Yes, our intellectual respect for literature declined, but our progress in science didn't really decline, in fact it grew. I don't see how you can isolate one trend and claim Ireland has an anti-intellectual heritage.

If our standard of English were better, we would not have John Herlihy, a vice president at Google, speaking on the radio recently about the remarkable number of spelling and grammatical errors that litter university graduates' CVs.

Yes, but is this any worse than the type of mistakes you would find in any other Anglophone nation. Of course there is room for major improvments, but is there anything to indicate we are truly appaling compared to other English speaking countries?

If our standard of mathematics were decent, we might have more than 16 percent of Leaving Cert students sitting the higher-level papers. Of course, it would help if 48 percent of our post-primary maths teachers actually had a maths teaching qualification. Alas, they don't.

As a mathematician I agree that the standard of mathematics could be improved. However having been a part of teaching mathematics at third level and having read papers on Maths education I think it would be a strech to say Ireland is particularly bad in this regard. It's no worse than Britain and America is far, far worse.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If the signs in the gaeltacht are printed with only the the native language of the local populace then signs outside the gaeltacht should be the same. It stands to sense.

Not really. The Gaelthacht is an area created to promoate the Irish language.
Non-Gaelthacht areas were not created to promoat the English language.

No, we wouldn't make one up. the few places in the gaeltacht that don't have an english translation would simply be wrote in their irish version.

Ie Irish only?
Well there goes your standardised system.

Nothing. What's wrong with having english only roadsigns in non-gaeltacht areas?

The English Placenames, in the vast majority of cases are just translations of the origional Irish placename. The English placename however dose not carry the meaning that the Irish name dose. Anyway, I know I would be unhappy if The Irish was taken off the roadsign for my home. Why would you want this?:P

daithicarr

using poor standards of english and maths and other subjects to decry the teaching of irish in our schools just sounds like a way to oppose irish on any grounds at all no matter how pettie.
it isint a case of good irish vs bad other subjects or good other subjects vs bad irish. if there is a problem with the standard of a subject then it should be brought up to a acceptable standard. it seems ludicrous to suggest a slightly higher standard required from our teachers is some how responsible for all the short commings of our education system.

Permabear

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daithicarr

donegalfella wrote: »

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id say the past three pages most the grammer and spelling mistakes have been in my posts which i blame dyslexcia for not a poor standard of teaching, god knows my teachers tried and tried. either way the posts people make on the boards is hardly a good way to judge the standard throughout the country. just the standard of those who are writing their posts quickly when hey should be working

deise go deo

What has any of that got to do with Irish?

This thread is about the Irish Language, Not about standards of English or maths.

If you think Irish is responciple for these poor standards then please provide some evedince for this.

Permabear

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daithicarr

Well this thread is well and truely derailed i think

think thats enough for me.

but im glad in the end that donegalfella realised his arguements held no water and derailed the debate rather than admit that he was now considering becoming a die heard conservative lefty gaeilgeoir hell bent on wasting tax payers money on frivilous schemes to boost his nationalistic ego

deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Boo...
Ad Hominum.
Attack the post not the poster.
Tisk tisk.:pac:

P. Breathnach

deise go deo wrote: »

Boo...
Ad Hominum.
Attack the post not the poster.
Tisk tisk.:pac:

Why have I got an itchy feeling in my fingertips?

deise go deo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why have I got an itchy feeling in my fingertips?

I dont know, Why do you?

Stiltzkin

I am in 3rd year going into 5th in September,It was fair funny in my honours Irish class earlier on this year before the Jc,our teacher asked us to translate 'I have a white rabbit.' into Irish and the majority of the class couldn't do it:D:D:eek:

Enkidu

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well, again, I must say because of our achievements in the sciences. You claimed that Ireland had an anti-intellectual heritage by the example of literature, I can just as easily provide an example of the opposite. I am not attempting to prove the opposite of what you claim, I'm simply arguing that Ireland, like any country, has had a multifaceted history. Every country has had anti-intellectual and pro-intellectual periods of history in different fields of human thought.
So I don't think it's particularly clear that Ireland is anti-intellectual, to match Proinsias Mac Aonghusa's criticism I could give praise by Schrödinger. However even if Ireland was anti-intellectual, a claim that would need more than an analysis of our treatment of literature thirty years ago, what conclusion could one then draw about the Irish language?

According to Mr Herlihy, yes, it is quite considerably worse here. Reading Boards.ie alone should give you a sense of the pervasive problems—how many spelling and grammatical errors can you count on the past three pages of this thread? As an informal international comparison, it's well worth noting that the Americans on Boards write much better than their Irish counterparts.

That's no comparison at all. Mr Herlihy's comments are worth noting, but I would need something more than that to say our standards are appalling and further evidence beyond that to show the link with the Irish language.

But you claim that Ireland is "not particularly bad"—because it shares the fate of the UK, which the London Mathematical Society warns is rapidly becoming a "maths wasteland"?

Yes. If most countries in Western Europe are having declining mathematical standards, then Western Europe is getting worse at mathematics, this is not some particular Irish problem caused by the Irish language.

astrofool

donegalfella wrote: »

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We are abstracting away a lot of the maths requirement in high tech areas, it becomes worrying that, say, the likes of Intel, might be losing the base knowledge of their designs as their systems become larger and larger (in complexity terms, not die size ). Mathematical theory is an essential part of what our society is built on, and it's becoming more and more neglected by the day.

Personally, as a software engineer, I get to see the odd algorithm, and logic and complexity problem, but would rarely get to really indulge my math brain (I'm sure it's all rusty now ).

Rebelheart

MysticalRain wrote: »

English is the most common language on the planet.

It is, obviously, not. Try and get out of your little anglocentric cocoon (which you appear to be sharing with several posters here).

All the anti-Irish brigade here seem to have a profound intellectual inability to see a world beyond mother England and English culture. I'd say all those British-produced maps with Britain at the centre of them has something to do with it. Myopic stuff.

The World, as billions of people view it

oh...never thought of it like that....

Rebelheart

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This is the kind of pettiness I hate about gaelgeoirs...

MysticalRain wrote: »

The pettiness of the militant Irish crown here is astounding.

This is breathtaking coming from English speakers who are so ingrained in pettiness that they put the Irish version of all names in a smaller font on every bilingual sign in Ireland. Talk about insecurity. Bigotry. And pettiness.

Rebelheart

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But not without a knowledge of 'Pythagoras's theorem, or trigonometry or other stuff which has no bearing on a Garda's job or interaction with the public', as I said. You cannot get a D3 even in Ordinary Level maths unless you regurgitate (not learn, mind you) formulae and other bollocksology which has absolutely no bearing on a Garda's actual work. Yet, people are forced to do it.

Also, your subjective view of the maths requirement as being 'somewhat less-than-demanding' should not determine requirements to get state jobs. You may have found it a doss; plenty of people don't and just because you clearly liked it doesn't mean you have a right to force it as a requirement upon people who have strengths in other areas.

donegalfella wrote: »

Primary teachers require at least a grade C in higher-level Irish. In fact, Irish is the only subject which trainee primary teachers are required to have studied at honours level. Ordinary-level maths and English are acceptable.

Applicants for primary teaching are also required to undergo an oral Irish exam.

You are correct though: the requirements are not analogous, nor should they be. You need Honours Irish because you are expected to teach children. The requirements needed to teach a language that is not your native language obviously need to be higher than the requirement to teach 1 + 1 or 'doss' subjects like English (assuming one is a native speaker of English), History, Geography and the like. Not all subjects require the same intellectual effort. Why a D3 in Leaving Cert maths is essential to teach a 6-year-old basic sums is beyond me. I guess some people continue to mistakenly equate maths with sums. Knowing how to calculate is essential to be a teacher. Having a Leaving Cert maths qualification is far from essential to teach national school children.

MysticalRain

Rebelheart wrote: »

It is, obviously, not. Try and get out of your little anglocentric cocoon (which you appear to be sharing with several posters here).

All the anti-Irish brigade here seem to have a profound intellectual inability to see a world beyond mother England and English culture. I'd say all those British-produced maps with Britain at the centre of them has something to do with it. Myopic stuff.

The World, as billions of people view it

oh...never thought of it like that....

Not if you count the number of people who speak English as a second language, which exceeds the total number of Mandarin speakers. Not to mention the fact that English is an international language, and Mandarin isn't. Hence the reason why it makes perfect logical sense to everybody but the bigoted nationalist Gaelic crowd to print road signs in English as well as Irish so the average tourist can understand them. Not to mention the approximately 98% of the country who don't speak Irish on a daily basis.

Who said anything about "mother England"? The modern English language as we know it is a truly international language whose influence extends far beyond its native land. In fact these days, I would associate the English language as much with non-English culture as any other - American culture being the prime example. Not to mention the myriad of Irish writers and artists who have left their own unique stamp on the language - James Joyce, Oscar Wilde, WB Yeats, Samuel Beckett, Frank McCourt etc. So you can kindly take your parochial anti-English bigotry and shove it. If you don't like living in an English-speaking country, then please move to the Gaeltacht where the rest of us 98-percenters won't have to listen to your whining.

This is breathtaking coming from English speakers who are so ingrained in pettiness that they put the Irish version of all names in a smaller font on every bilingual sign in Ireland. Talk about insecurity. Bigotry. And pettiness.

It's got nothing to do with bigotry. One language is printed in a bigger font because only a tiny fraction of the population actually understands the other one. Of course I'm sure you'll still believe there is some kind of English conspiracy going on regardless of the real reason behind it.

MysticalRain

Dionysus wrote: »

It doesn't. If you're going to be in denial about this well-established reality there isn't much point in continuing.

Chinese language:
1.3 billion

English Language:
First language: 309–400 million
Second language: 199–1,400 million
Overall: 500 million–1.8 billion

#15

Rebelheart wrote: »

Why a D3 in Leaving Cert maths is essential to teach a 6-year-old basic sums is beyond me. I guess some people continue to mistakenly equate maths with sums. Knowing how to calculate is essential to be a teacher. Having a Leaving Cert maths qualification is far from essential to teach national school children.

You are wrong on that one. If anything, Maths standards should be much higher than they currently are. Have you ever tried to teach a 6 year old Maths - it's much more difficult than teaching them Irish, or another language for that matter.

Are you aware that 6 year olds do more than just ''basic sums'' and calculations?

It's mind-boggling that you think teachers should know how to calculate but not worry about any other area of Maths.

Here are the topics covered by most 6 year olds in school (they are usually in senior infants or first class).

Infant classes First and second classes
Strands
Strand units


Early mathematical activities

* Classifying
* Matching
* Comparing
* Ordering


Number

* Counting
* Comparing and ordering
*

Analysis of number
Combining
Partitioning
Numeration



* Counting and numeration
* Comparing and ordering
* Place value
* Operations
Addition
Subtraction
* Fractions

Algebra

* Extending Patterns



* Exploring and using patterns

Shape and space

* Spatial awareness
* 3-D shapes
* 2-D shapes



* Spatial awareness
* 2-D shapes
* 3-D shapes
* Symmetry
* Angles

Measures

* Length
* Weight
* Capacity
* Time
* Money



* Length
* Area
* Weight
* Capacity
* Time
* Money

Data

* Recognising and interpreting data



* Representing and interpreting data

Skills

* Applying and problem-solving
* Communicating and expressing
* Integrating and connecting
* Reasoning
* Implementing
* Understanding and recalling

It's off-topic, but I couldn't let such an inaccuracy go unchallenged.

Kev_ps3

MysticalRain wrote: »

Chinese language:
1.3 billion

English Language:
First language: 309–400 million
Second language: 199–1,400 million
Overall: 500 million–1.8 billion

What about the second language and Overall for Chinese?

Enkidu

Rebelheart wrote: »

All the anti-Irish brigade here seem to have a profound intellectual inability to see a world beyond mother England and English culture. I'd say all those British-produced maps with Britain at the centre of them has something to do with it. Myopic stuff.

Rebelheart it's a bit ridiculous to say that people who find compulsory Irish in schools to be a waste of time are "West-Brits". I mean we can't all like things from Irelands past. Even though I like the language, I don't play GAA sports or Sean-nós dancing. Even more so, very few of us have run around in the nip during the solstice.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Hence the reason why it makes perfect logical sense to everybody but the bigoted nationalist Gaelic crowd to print road signs in English as well as Irish so the average tourist can understand them. Not to mention the approximately 98% of the country who don't speak Irish on a daily basis.

Would you be including me in that remark?
Do you think it would make any difference to the average tourist if a place uses An Irish version of the place name?
Have you anything to support this?

So because 98% dont speak Irish on a daily basis they must therefore side with you?
Or do you think not speaking Irish on a daily basis makes place names As Gaeilge Incomprehenciple to them?

Permabear

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