Is Irish a dead language?

Permabear

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dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Or trilingual.

Permabear

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deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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So anything but Irish then?:rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

So anything but Irish then?:rolleyes:

I believe donegalfella was commenting on the most likely scenario.

Permabear

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deise go deo

I disagree. I beleive that with proper, practicle, oral focused education in schools a large part of the population could be brought up to a level of Irish that would allow them to converse as Gaeilge.
This along with the Gaelscoil movement would go along way twords a Bi-lingual society IMO.

Permabear

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deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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How do you know? have you personally asked them?

The majority of Irish people are unable to converse as Gaeilge because the education system failed them. I do not know what their attuide is twords it, neither do you.

Bet away im sure Paddy Power will give you odds on it.

The Gaelscoil movement started before the celtic tiger.:rolleyes:

Permabear

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deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Which was goverment policy at the time was it not?

Admittedly the government, by forcing Peig down the throats of generations, doesn't seem to have helped matters any—but if Irish actually were a thriving language, we wouldn't need to rely on "the education system" to inculcate it, would we?

Always found that phrase funny, gives me a picture of a lode of kids with books sticking out of their mouths.:P

Irish is not thriving in most of the country at the moment, I dont recall saying it is.

So yes we do need to teach it to people properly before they will be able to use it. Kinda makes sence dont ya think?

Permabear

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deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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You dont think it makes sence that if you teach someone how to do something, they will be able to do it?

Is the Gaelscoil movement not people voteing with their feet that they want Irish?

Wait no, that dosent agree with you so its just a fad:rolleyes:

I beleive if people were tought how to speak Irish properly in school and were able to speak Irish when they were finished, then they would speak Irish.
I think its wrong to claim that if people dont do something they dont know how to do, then it proves they dont want to do it.

Permabear

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Wolfe Tone

It is the course that makes people hate it. For example most people who go to the Gaeltacht are those who are weak in the language(thus probably dont like it). However while there very few(in my experience anyway) have any issue with the way the language is taught there, by actually speaking it. It is the bullsh!t poems, plays and general boring nature of the course that alienates people from the language.

Permabear

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deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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I know people dislike the course. I never said they dident.
I have said several times the course needs to be changed radicly.

The thread you referenced has a poll that shows over half like Irish overall.

It's also evident, however, that even people who enjoy the language find mastering it to be somewhat pointless. Someone who has fluent French can jet off to Paris and spend a weekend speaking, reading, and listening to nothing but that language. There are no equivalent opportunities for Irish-speakers.

Some people undoubtadly do, I dont personally. It brings a lot of happiness into my life.

Thats not true, I was on the Aran Islands yesterday. Everyone met from there were able to speak In Irish with me.

Finally, if people find poems, plays, and other writings in Irish tedious and boring, that surely reflects rather poorly on the literary legacy of that language?

Not really. If some one is made to rote learn plays and writings written in a language they are unable to understand, how are they supposed to come to appreciate its form or meaning.

I found the Plays etc on the English course to be very tedious, I dont think it refelects on the Literary legacy of English.

The recurring themes are that Irish is a language with no practical application, that the course is poorly structured, and that resentment towards the state for foisting it upon everyone is completely justified.

Curiously, the complaints voiced here echo exactly those of my peers when I did my LC—and I'm now in my thirties.

Right let me explain my position one more time.

I beleive that If Irish is tought properly in School, by which I mean Focus on Oral and aural with only a small element of basic written work focused around basic litericy. (sorting out peoples problem with the course.)

Then people will be reasonably confident with the language when they finnish school(sorting the problem of people going through the system and at the end not being able to speak it)

If people are then able to speak the language, I beleive they would (remoaving the charge that it is pointless to learn)

The reason I beleive this is that despite the opinions and problems expresed in relation to Irish the majority still voted for it in that poll

The fact that people who go through the system today echo the opinions of people who went through the systym when you did is hardly suprising when you consider that the course has not changed in any meaningfull way in betwean times.

Permabear

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deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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As am I.
Your point was that it is impossible to go anywhere and speak Irish only.
This is not true.

You want people to spend 13 years studying Irish without getting beyond "basic written work" and "basic literacy"?

Yes, because I beleive this would acheive the best results in terms of people being able to speak Irish.

I have said earlier that for those who want to take their Irish beyond the Basic conversational level then there should be a second course based on LC English focused on essays, prose potery and plays.

I'll note that as long as you make Irish a compulsory subject, you will always have people going through the system for the sake of going through the system. The same is true of any subject. Make music compulsory, and you will have students spending 13 years desultorily strumming tunelessly on their guitars, because they just don't want to be there.

Yes it is possible this will happen with some people, but no mofe than in maths and English if the course is done properly.IMO

Let me ask you: Do you believe that government policy should determine which languages people should speak? Or do you believe people should decide for themselves? If the latter, and people decide not to speak Irish, then where's the problem?

I have already said that a nation wide survay should be done to find out peoples attitude twords Irish.

I see a difference between people not speaking Irish because they they are unable to and people not speaking Irish because they dont want to.

Permabear

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deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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If a majority want Irish to remain manditory in school then it should.

Thats democracy for you.

Permabear

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deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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So what do you want then.

Can I ask is it possible for you to lose this argument or will you just keep moveing the goalposts till you win?

Is there any basis for Irish being kept as a compulsory subject then?

Your argument seams to suggest that if the majority dont want Irish then the majority should get its way. and if the majority do want Irish then you should still get your way cos it would be unfair if you dident.

If a majority of people vote for Irish to be kept as a compulsory subject then it would be. Majority rules.

Permabear

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Enkidu

donegalfella wrote: »

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Irish is in a curious situation in this regard. There are several good modern novels such as "Cré na Cille" (Churchyard Clay) by Máirtín Ó Cadhain. However most of the very good literature is in Old Irish or the Bardic Standard which existed before the Flight of the Earls. This can be difficult (Bardic Standard) or impossible (Old Irish) to read if you know only Modern Irish.

Enkidu

nuac wrote: »

BTW enkindu since downloading the interesting article on the Celts I came across in my library ( pile of books in a spare room ) my copy of Philips' Atlas of the Celts of which barry Raftery of UCD was consultant editor. Gives a very good overview.

That's an excellent book. It reminds me of something from Cambrdige's "Illustrated Guide" series.

Iwasfrozen

Enkidu wrote: »

Irish is in a curious situation in this regard. There are several good modern novels such as "Cré na Cille" (Churchyard Clay) by Máirtín Ó Cadhain. However most of the very good literature is in Old Irish or the Bardic Standard which existed before the Flight of the Earls. This can be difficult (Bardic Standard) or impossible (Old Irish) to read if you know only Modern Irish.

Would it not be possible to translate these into english?

Wolfe Tone

Once you accept that the state should not have the authority to determine which language(s) we speak

So English should be optional also? And every language under the sun should be available to be taught in our schools?

Enkidu

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Would it not be possible to translate these into english?

It certainly would be possible, I can't imagine a language which would be impossible to translate into English. Of course there is the difficulty of the effectiveness of the translation. For example in Sanskrit literature they make extensive use of punning in a way that English (or any other language) just cannot replicate. So you could translate, with heavy annotations to the text, but I don't think it would match the immediacy of the text in the original where you are confronted with whole sentences that can be read in over twenty different ways.

Old Irish has similar structures, particularly the rhyming structure, that would be difficult to get across in a translation.

Modern Irish could support a very faithful translation, I think it would be great to have Modern Irish translations of a few of these works.
Of course I mean it would be great as an interested person myself, not that children should have to go through a curriculum where they must study these translations. Really I was pointing out the curious fact that upon learning Irish it's not easy to get access to its literature.

EDIT: Also there is the tendency in translations to soften things. For example, Shakespeare sounding translations of Antigone.

deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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So let me see, you dont beleive there is a legitimate basis for Irish to be Compulsory. Would this be at any stage of school? I assume you extend this concept to all subjects? Otherwise it would be pure hypocrisy.

We don't need a one-size-fits-all solution here. Anyone who chooses to study or speak Irish would be perfectly free to do so. Likewise, someone who has no interest in the language should be free to ignore it. What's wrong with that?

Once you accept that the state should not have the authority to determine which language(s) we speak, what clothes we wear, and so on, the appropriate route to follow becomes quite clear.

This isent about the state forceing people to live their lives in a paticular way its about education policy.

People should be free to choose what langauage they speak when they are finished school but they shouldent be denied a real choice when the time comes because they are faced with a choice between a language they can speak and a language they cant.

Also it would be inevitable that a lack of resourses would mean that there would be no Irish teacher in some schools. Students who did want to study Irish would then be unable to do so. Irish would also inevitiably clash with other subjects some want in the list of options. This hapened to me with Physics and because of the options avaiable I ended up having to study Ag sicence.