Is Irish a dead language?

Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

An appreciation of Irish and Irish literature could arguably give someone a more complex, thoughtful, nuanced, and sensitive appreciation of the world, human character, imagination, history, and language—which is why human civilizations have been producing and consuming literature in one form or another for as long as we have had human civilizations.

English literature informs how I think about almost every aspect of life. Therefore, I could be said to apply it constantly.

Irish literature informs how people think about almost every aspect of life. Therefore, it could be said they apply it constantly.

My doctorate in English makes me quite useful as a teacher and as a writer.

Fiction? You dont need to be an extremely eloquent or expressive writer to be say, a journalist (unfortunately). Anyway, the same could be said about Irish speakers

More correctly, I spend my time generating investment income, largely by profiting from governmental idiocy. And yes, I believe that those who do so are making the greatest contributions to the world at this present time. But all of this seems rather off-topic for this thread.

Off topic, but illuminating all the same.

Rebelheart

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, they are. Everything else is bullshít invented by people with too much time on their hand (Jane Austen springs to mind) who then want to create themselves into an 'educated' elite of some form simply because they have successfully internalised and regurgitated their own bullshít to a high degree. What an achievement! (mar dhea).

As for this self-serving nonsense of "culturally enriching", I can get that down in the local GAA club, pub or indeed in almost every area of life. Only the most sociopathic loner would fail to experience this. It is another delusion of the aforementioned wannabe elite that culture exists only within the parameters of the ideas and art forms which they have created and regurgitated- as if enlightenment cannot come otherwise. Bollocksology.

And this brings me to the more micro issue of LC English. The raison d'être of the current English language syllabus is to pass an exam. It has no practical relevancy to the overwhelming majority of lives after it. Yet all LC students are forced to endure the pointless wafflers who constitute the LC English syllabus.

donegalfella wrote: »

Meanwhile, almost all the more difficult pre-twentieth-century writers, such as Milton, Wordsworth, Herbert, and Dryden, have been eliminated from Paper Two.

And who decided they were "more difficult"? Let me guess. A few less-grounded (to be polite) individuals met and said something like "I didn't understand Dryden at all. Ergo he must be deep and profound. Let's make him a 'great writer'!". The same section of society which makes this nonsense then attempts to argue for the indispensability of their product to a "culturally enriched" and "enlightened" life. The English language arts movement is just another marketplace - all the dressing up cannot detract from that - which we are forced to support by virtue of the LC English syllabus.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

hehe. Where have I heard that defensive notion-filled folie de grandeur tone before. I'm definitely on the right track knocking down this idol of those narrowly-educated people who would like to be viewed as highly educated. The delusions of it all.

deise go deo

Yes, and once again Shakespeare and your chosen English-language wafflers have a practical application in the lives of the average person after Leaving Cert?

donegalfella wrote: »

However, many people find reading great literature to be culturally enriching, and so don't dismiss authors as "oh-so-gay blowhards."

Are you really defending LC English on the basis that it can be culturally enriching?

Oh the irony.:rolleyes:

deise go deo

Its only arguable application is to give someone a more complex, thoughtful, nuanced, and sensitive appreciation of the world, human character, imagination, history, and language—which is why human civilizations have been producing and consuming literature in one form or another for as long as we have had human civilizations.

So the only argument for LC English is one that can also be applyed to Irish yet you are for one and against the other?
I would say you have a chip on your shoulder.

RandomName2

P. Breathnach wrote: »

But here's the rub: people in the gaeltacht are approached by people from the English-speaking population of Ireland, and are expected to deal with them in English. That means that we don't have equivalent expectations of English speakers. If a woman from Carna in Dublin should speak English, should not the Dubliner in Carna speak Irish?

We are considering a problem that does not have a simple solution.

They would be expected to pseak English because (a) they universally know how to speak English and (b) they are part of the Republic of Ireland.

However, if people in the Gaeltacht prefer the use of Irish to English (which is pretty safe to assume) perhaps they should be given what amounts to Duchy status... sort of a devolved status from the Irish government. Gaeilge could be allowed flourish in the place where it is actually wanted.

The only problem I see with this idea is that the Gaeltacht is substantially subsidised by the Irish government. While I am against subsidisation in principle, in this case I might make an exception.... PARTICULARLY if the public funds for Irish in the rest of the country were slashed.

(maybe make Irish the sole official language of the Gaeltacht [including Ring] and English the sole official language of the rest of the country)?

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

They would be expected to pseak English because (a) they universally know how to speak English and (b) they are part of the Republic of Ireland.

They do it as a courtisy not because they have to.
What relevence dose B have?

However, if people in the Gaeltacht prefer the use of Irish to English (which is pretty safe to assume) perhaps they should be given what amounts to Duchy status... sort of a devolved status from the Irish government. Gaeilge could be allowed flourish in the place where it is actually wanted.

I dont see why the gaelthachts would need devolved status?
What difference would it make?

The only problem I see with this idea is that the Gaeltacht is substantially subsidised by the Irish government. While I am against subsidisation in principle, in this case I might make an exception.... PARTICULARLY if the public funds for Irish in the rest of the country were slashed.

So what about the people in the rest of the country who are intrested in Irish?

(maybe make Irish the sole official language of the Gaeltacht [including Ring] and English the sole official language of the rest of the country)?

There are families outside tha gaeltacht where Irish is the language of the home.
What about the gaelscoil movement?
Why dose Ring get a special mention?

Rebelheart

RandomName2 wrote: »

They would be expected to pseak English because (a) they universally know how to speak English and (b) they are part of the Republic of Ireland.

Where does it say that by virtue of being part of the state named Ireland that they should speak English rather than Irish?

RandomName2 wrote: »

Gaeilge could be allowed flourish in the place where it is actually wanted.

Which is in most of Ireland.

RandomName2 wrote: »

I might make an exception.... PARTICULARLY if the public funds for Irish in the rest of the country were slashed. (maybe make Irish the sole official language of the Gaeltacht [including Ring] and English the sole official language of the rest of the country)?

Wouldn't work. I live in Meath and you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who'd want to make this area like an English county community à la Kent or Sussex. People are ferociously proud of their culture, whether it's actively such as supporting the GAA and sending their children in huge numbers to gaelscoileanna or passively through being happy to see Irish on all signposts, heritage sites, government literature and so forth. I think you're creating a divide between gaeltacht and galltacht which doesn't exist in reality in Ireland. If there was popular support for the kind of Ireland you are proposing for outside the gaeltacht politicians would have proposed it long ago.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I personally dont agree with all classic literature being ''bullshít''

However I find it hypocritical to argue against Irish and support English for reasons that also apply to Irish

Rebelheart

deise go deo wrote: »

However I find it hypocritical to argue against Irish and support English for reasons that also apply to Irish

On the button. Spot on.

Rebelheart

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There you go again defining intellectualism by your own interests, as if it cannot exist outside of that narrow form to which you subscribe. True intellectualism would have a more holistic and eclectic approach to the idea of intellectualism. And it wasn't exactly the movers and shakers of war who were sitting around writing novels. It was people who had the time for that, often people who had the luxury to do so because one of their forefathers had made enough money for them to make, well, nothing like a practical contribution to society.

donegalfella wrote: »

Are you the guy standing outside the National Concert Hall screaming, "It's all artsy-fartsy bullshít"?

I'd be the guy asking why it isn't open to people on lower incomes, as the pricing policy in states like Hungary and the Czech Republic ensure it is, for instance. I'd wonder how much the Irish taxpayer is subsidising this little play toy of a wannabe elite. I'd also be questioning the socio-economic notions of the sort of people who want to keep people on lower incomes out and who attend such events just to be seen. Not that you'd even think in such shallow terms of course, Donegalfella.

oscarBravo

Rebelheart wrote: »

I'd be the guy asking why it isn't open to people on lower incomes...

You can go see Russell Watson next week for €30.

politicsdude

the only job people need irish for is teaching - and thats only so the can teach more teachers to teach irish. It should be an option for the leaving not compulsory

cyclopath2001

Rebelheart wrote: »

Wouldn't work. I live in Meath and you'd be hard-pressed to ....People are ferociously proud of their culture, whether it's actively such as supporting the GAA ... I think you're creating a divide between gaeltacht and galltacht which doesn't exist in reality in Ireland.

The divide is very real. Most people in this country speak English. If they wanted to speak Irish, they would have done so decades ago.

The way you put it, you'd think the poeple of Meath didn't use cars, lived in mud huts and held to the Brehon laws. Instead they support a variation on soccer (invented in the 19th century to coalesce anti-English sentiment), drive cars, play on their xBoxes, listen to rock music and have washing machines just like their cousins in Kent and Sussex. And, just like them, they speak English.

deise go deo

politicsdude wrote: »

the only job people need irish for is teaching - and thats only so the can teach more teachers to teach irish.

This is simply not true. Many people who work in the gaelthachts need Irish to deal with their customers.

Are people who work for TG4 Irish teachers, Are DJ's on RnaG, Raidió Rí-Rá, Raidió na Liffa, Newstalk etc who work through Irish, Irish teachers?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

This is simply not true. Many people who work in the gaelthachts need Irish to deal with their customers.

Are people who work for TG4 Irish teachers, Are DJ's on RnaG, Raidió Rí-Rá, Raidió na Liffa, Newstalk etc who work through Irish, Irish teachers?

Maybe he ment real jobs. As in a job not artificially created by the state to prop up a pointless brain dead minority language for no obvious reason other then to satisfy some vague misty eyed celtic nationalist agenda dreamt up by republicans in the late nineteenth century?

But wait, that would include teachers aswell..... Nevermind. :rolleyes:

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The divide is very real. Most people in this country speak English. If they wanted to speak Irish, they would have done so decades ago.

Its hard to speak a language you dont know how to. People were and are not being tought Irish in school properly and as such are not confident in the language. Learning a language after school is a major undertakeing that most people working to pay their bills simply dont have time for.

They way you put it, you'd think the poeple of Meath didn't use cars, lived in mud huts and held to the Brehon laws. Instead they support a variation on soccer (invented in the 19th century to coalesce anti-English sentiment), drive cars, play on their xBoxes, listen to rock music and have washing machines just like their cousins in Kent and Sussex. And, just like them, they speak English.

I find it very odd that you think the only alternative to English culture is ''Mud Huts''

Do the french not have cars, or the Germans(who invented them)
Do the Spanish not have washing machines.
Do the Italians not play on the xBox?
They dont speak English so do they live in Mud Huts too? :rolleyes:

I mean honestly, read what you just posted, Its comical.:D

politicsdude

well there is something seriously wrong with the way its being taught. After years and years of learning it most people still can't carry on a conversation in it

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Maybe he ment real jobs. As in a job not artificially created by the state to prop up a pointless brain dead minority language for no obvious reason other then to satisfy some vague misty eyed celtic nationalist agenda dreamt up by republicans in the late nineteenth century?

But wait, that would include teachers aswell..... Nevermind. :rolleyes:

Is Newstalk an artifical state suported company?

Are workers in the Spar Shop in An Rinn not in ''Real Jobs''

And all teachers are supported by the free market aret they?

Its just Irish teachers who are payed by the state.:rolleyes:

''Misty Eyed'':D LOL

deise go deo

politicsdude wrote: »

well there is something seriously wrong with the way its being taught. After years and years of learning it most people still can't carry on a conversation in it

Of course there is. But I would rather fix how it is being tought than Just stop teaching it.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Is Newstalk an artifical state suported company?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

deise go deo wrote: »

Are workers in the Spar Shop in An Rinn not in ''Real Jobs''

They are, but I wouldn't imagine Spar requires people to speak irish to work there.

deise go deo wrote: »

And all teachers are supported by the free market aret they?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

deise go deo wrote: »

Its just Irish teachers who are payed by the state.:rolleyes:

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Newstalk have an Irish language program called Splanc.

They are, but I wouldn't imagine Spar requires people to speak irish to work there.

Iv yet to meet someone there who cant converse with me As Gaeilge.
I dont know if they actually require you to have it but not haveing it would be an obvious handicap when you will have to speak with Irish speakers.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I was makeing the point that you are saying Irish teachers are supported by the state as if the rest arent.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Newstalk have an Irish language program.

Ok? They are appealing to a niche target audience. Nothing wrong with that.

deise go deo wrote: »

Iv yet to meet someone there who cant converse with me As Gaeilge.
I dont know if they actually require you to have it but not haveing it would be an obvious handicap when you will have to speak with Irish speakers.

I imagine this isn't a problem since these customers can speak english.

deise go deo wrote: »

I was makeing the point that you are saying Irish teachers are supported by the state as if the rest arent.

I never said the rest aren't. I never even hinted at that.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oh so because someone can speak English, They must?

What happend to your Choice idea?

I never said the rest aren't. I never even hinted at that.

Maybe he ment real jobs. As in a job not artificially created by the state to prop up a pointless brain dead minority language for no obvious reason other then to satisfy some vague misty eyed celtic nationalist agenda dreamt up by republicans in the late nineteenth century?

But wait, that would include teachers aswell..... Nevermind.

You said Irish Teachers specifically, did not have a ''Real'' job.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Oh so because someone can speak English, They must?

What happend to your Choice idea?

That doesn't work in the real world. If a french person can't demand to do their business with shopkeepers in french then why should a person from the gaeltacht demand to do their business in irish.

I'm sorry but unlike the state, private business's do not generally cater for minority languages. And anybody going into he shop should accept that.

deise go deo wrote:

You said Irish Teachers specifically, did not have a ''Real'' job

I ment irish language teachers.

Rebelheart

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The divide is very real.

So, go for it and divide up Meath/Dublin/Ireland into haters of the Irish language like you and lovers of it. Create your nice simplistic political state now where everybody is one or the other. Oh wait.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

They way you put it, you'd think the poeple of Meath didn't use cars, lived in mud huts and held to the Brehon laws.

Actually, you're merely revealing far too many of your own backward anti-Irish stereotypes with that comment. Well done.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Instead they support a variation on soccer (invented in the 19th century to coalesce anti-English sentiment)

Oh don't be such a lamentably undereducated shítehawk; the earliest known record of Gaelic football is in 1527 in Galway. But seeing as you have brought up the issue it was your beloved soccer which was, in fact, invented in the late nineteenth century. It was only then, in 1863, that rules were created which banned the handling of the ball and agreed a common set of rules between most of the organisations which at that time claimed to be "football" organisations. They distinguished themselves from Rugby Football by calling their newly invented game Association Football. But let's not allow the facts to interfere with your latest anti-Irish tirade.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

drive cars, play on their xBoxes, listen to rock music and have washing machines just like their cousins in Kent and Sussex.

And of course non-English speakers would never be that advanced. Cars and xboxes are legendary products of British superiority and manufacturing sophistication. Oh yeah, the British car market has truly conquered Europe. Well done (once again).

lorcan1996

The Irish language is far gone now. The way to get the language back and running is to be teaching it right in schools. These days in Irish they have to learn poems, storys etc.. which has nothing to do with the language. That should be thought in English. They need to change this tobget the language back up and running throughout Ireland

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That doesn't work in the real world. If a french person can't demand to do their business with shopkeepers in french then why should a person from the gaeltacht demand to do their business in irish.

Im sorry but it is working in the real world.
If when I was in the gaelthacht there was a shop that I could speak Irish in and a shop which I couldent speak Irish in then I would go to the shop in which I could speak Irish.

I'm sorry but unlike the state, private business's do not cater for other languages. And anybody going intot he shop should accept that.

[/QUOTE]

Rubbish. Many businesses, Especially in the Gaeltacht cater for the Irish language.

I was going to the Aran Islands a few days ago and the office where I bought the ticket for the ferry had a sign on the door saying ''We welcome the coupla focail''

Why should they. If a shop is in a comunity that speaks Irish then it is nonsence for them to expect their customers to speak English

Iwasfrozen

Rebelheart wrote: »

And of course non-English speakers would never be that advanced. Cars and xboxes are legendary products of British superiority and manufacturing sophistication. Oh yeah, the British car market has truly conquered Europe. Well done (once again).

Microsoft is an American company.