Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Microsoft is an American company.

He was being sarcastic:rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Im sorry but it is working in the real world.
If when I was in the gaelthacht there was a shop that I could speak Irish in and a shop which I couldent speak Irish in then I would go to the shop in which I could speak Irish.

And so, I am sure would many. But you must remember there is no onus on these companies to provide with residents services through the irish language. If they do it then it is out of their own heart.

As for choosing shops that only speak irish don't you think that's rather narrow minded of you?

deise go deo wrote: »

Rubbish. Many businesses, Especially in the Gaeltacht cater for the Irish language.

I'm sure many do. But many also don't.

deise go deo wrote: »

I was going to the Aran Islands a few days ago and the office where I bought the ticket for the ferry had a sign on the door saying ''We welcome the coupla focail''

The very fact they had to put up signs reminding locals to use irish proves to me that many so called gaelgeoirs where abandoning their duty when dealing with this business. So much for a healthy gaeltacht.

deise go deo wrote: »

Why should they. If a shop is in a comunity that speaks Irish then it is nonsence for them to expect their customers to speak English

Maybe the person running the shop doesn't speak irish? Are only irish speaking people allowed to work in the gaeltacht?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

He was being sarcastic:rolleyes:

I know.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

So what about the people in the rest of the country who are intrested in Irish?

Read a book? What about people in the rest of the country who are interested in Yiddish? Or Polish - lot's of people interested in Polish in this country.

deise go deo wrote: »

There are families outside tha gaeltacht where Irish is the language of the home.
What about the gaelscoil movement?

So they speak Irish in their homes. No big deal.

Gaelscoil should be self-supporting outside of the gaeltacht.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I find it very odd that you think the only alternative to English culture is ''Mud Huts''

Of course I said nothing of the sort, I merely tried to highlight the falsehood what what you are portraying in Meath, a county rich in Anglo-Norman heritage, just like Kent.

The 'English Culture' that you are trying to reject is what exactly?

deise go deo wrote: »

Do the french not have cars, or the Germans(who invented them)Do the Spanish not have washing machines. Do the Italians not play on the xBox?

The French speak French, the Spanish speak Spanish, the Italians speak Italian and the Irish speak English.

If the majority of the people of Ireland wanted to speak Irish, they would. They don't - go figure what this means.

RandomName2

Rebelheart wrote: »

And of course non-English speakers would never be that advanced. Cars and xboxes are legendary products of British superiority and manufacturing sophistication. Oh yeah, the British car market has truly conquered Europe. Well done (once again).

I will be frank. You are exceptionally nationalistic in your outlook. But you should not use a language as a metaphorical means to wrap the tri-colour around yourself. DOuglas Hyde's disgust at the movement he created comes to mind....

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And so, I am sure would many. But you must remember there is no onus on these companies to provide with residents services through the irish language. If they do it then it is out of their own heart.

I know, hence by your defination ''REAL'' jobs. They do so because it makes business sence to not force people who want to speak Irish to speak English.

As for choosing shops that only speak irish don't you think that's rather narrow minded of you?

No. Its my choice. I am intrested in learning Irish and as such use every opertunity to speak it.

I'm sure many do. But many also don't.

You made the point that private business do not cater for other languages. I was showing this to be untrue.

The very fact they had to put up signs reminding locals to use irish proves to me that many so called gaelgeoirs where abandoning their duty when dealing with this business. So much for a healthy gaeltacht.

The vast majority were not Irish let alone local.
The sign was not for Locals. The locals do not need reminding to speak Irish. They were anyway.

Maybe the person running the shop doesn't speak irish? Are only irish speaking people allowed to work in the gaeltacht?

Maybe the person running the shop only speaks Japanese. It still wouldent make sence for them to expect locals not to conduct their business in their own language.

RandomName2

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The 'English Culture' that you are trying to reject is what exactly?

The French speak French, the Spanish speak Spanish, the Italians speak Italian and the Irish speak English.

If the majority of the people of Ireland wanted to speak Irish, they would. They don't - go figure what this means.

Maybe the Spanish should be forced to all learn Catalan, or the English to all learn Cornish or French to all learn Basque.... :pac:

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

I will be frank. You are exceptionally nationalistic in your outlook. But you should not use a language as a metaphorical means to wrap the tri-colour around yourself. DOuglas Hyde's disgust at the movement he created comes to mind....

I am sorry but the poster he was responding to said that by saying people in Meath were proud of their Irish culture he was saying they were backward and lived in ''mud huts''.

How is it exceptionally nationalistic to debunk this?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Of course I said nothing of the sort, I merely tried to highlight the falsehood what what you are portraying in Meath, a county rich in Anglo-Norman heritage, just like Kent.

They way you put it, you'd think the poeple of Meath didn't use cars, lived in mud huts and held to the Brehon laws.

You made the claim that because he said people in Meath were proud of their culture he made it sound like they were backward.
So in what way is being Proud of Irish culture Backward?

So xBoxes, cars, washing Machines and rock music are hallmarks of anglo norman heritage then?:rolleyes:

Why dont you go to Meath and see the reaction to these ideas.

The French speak French, the Spanish speak Spanish, the Italians speak Italian and the Irish speak English.

If the majority of the people of Ireland wanted to speak Irish, they would. They don't - go figure what this means.

When in their history was the speaking of any of these languages banned by a ruleing power whos policy was the replacment of the native language with their own?

Rebelheart

RandomName2 wrote: »

I will be frank. You are exceptionally nationalistic in your outlook. But you should not use a language as a metaphorical means to wrap the tri-colour around yourself. DOuglas Hyde's disgust at the movement he created comes to mind....

Be "frank" all you like. But keep it real. The basis for your "exceptionally nationalistic" comment is what? That I don't take any of the Irish language = mud huts mentality spewed by people here who hate the Irish language and propagate false ideas about, for instance, the origins of Gaelic Football? Or that I call on the inferiority complex of people who make delusional comments about the supposed sophistication of English speakers when it is German speakers who are the technological, innovative, intellectual and manufacturing powerhouse of Europe? (and own most if not all the British car manufacturers)


But of course to reject this deeply political anti-Irishness is to "politicise" Irish in your view. Bollocks to that twist.

Focalbhach

9.15 p.m.:

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If a french person can't demand to do their business with shopkeepers in french then why should a person from the gaeltacht demand to do their business in irish.

I'm sorry but unlike the state, private business's do not generally cater for minority languages. And anybody going into he shop should accept that.

9.38 p.m.:

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As for choosing shops that only speak irish don't you think that's rather narrow minded of you?

Do you see a slight double standard?

Focalbhach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

If the majority of the people of Ireland wanted to speak Irish, they would.

That's not really true though. The crucial bit that turns that into a valid statement is:

If the majority of the people of Ireland wanted and were able to speak Irish, they would.

If we're all agreed on one thing in this thread, it's that the current methods of teaching Irish do not generally lead to people who are capable of confidently speaking the language. Which is a massive problem.

Rebelheart

Leto wrote: »

If we're all agreed on one thing in this thread, it's that the current methods of teaching Irish do not generally lead to people who are capable of confidently speaking the language. Which is a massive problem.

/thread.

Rebelheart

RandomName2 wrote: »

Read a book? What about people in the rest of the country who are interested in Yiddish? Or Polish - lot's of people interested in Polish in this country.

Your concern for all and sundry bar Irish speakers in Ireland is noted. Such sincere cultural pluralism. This is the sort of "liberalism masking prejudice" thinking which gives liberalism a bad press.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Gaelscoil should be self-supporting outside of the gaeltacht.

Yes, so that means English-language schools will also be self-supporting outside the Gaeltacht? Great, I just can't wait until my taxes stop funding a backward and sectarian English-language school system (including €100 million to fee-paying sectarian English-language schools) and then I have more money for my local progressive non-denominational Gaelscoil. Oh wait. That's not what you meant, was it?

Rebelheart

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Of course I said nothing of the sort, I merely tried to highlight the falsehood what what you are portraying in Meath, a county rich in Anglo-Norman heritage, just like Kent.

"Just like Kent" indeed. There's your problem. Not even that British nationalist historian of the "British Isles" school of politics in NUIG would contend that.

Oh, and if I'm not mistaken Kent is also "a county rich in Celtic heritage", a point which further serves to highlight the essential silliness of your analogy.

eddyc

Rebelheart wrote: »

Your concern for all and sundry bar Irish speakers in Ireland is noted. Such sincere cultural pluralism. This is the sort of "liberalism masking prejudice" thinking which gives liberalism a bad press.



Yes, so that means English-language schools will also be self-supporting outside the Gaeltacht? Great, I just can't wait until my taxes stop funding a backward and sectarian English-language school system (including €100 million to fee-paying sectarian English-language schools) and then I have more money for my local progressive non-denominational Gaelscoil. Oh wait. That's not what you meant, was it?

Righteous indignation aside, Irish speakers are VERY well taken care of in this country and NOBODY here wants them to stop speaking Irish. You'd swear people on here were talking about banning the language which is ridiculous.
I think there is a feeling that the money could be better spent on the people who want to learn it than just blanketly signing off millions of Euros for projects to make people speak Irish who don't want to, and to translate documents into Irish that nobody will ever read.

deise go deo

eddyc wrote: »

Righteous indignation aside, Irish speakers are VERY well taken care of in this country and NOBODY here wants them to stop speaking Irish. You'd swear people on here were talking about banning the language which is ridiculous.
I think there is a feeling that the money could be better spent on the people who want to learn it than just blanketly signing off millions of Euros for projects to make people speak Irish who don't want to, and to translate documents into Irish that nobody will ever read.

Well it has been suggested that Irish speakers should have to speak English when dealing with business.

The concept of reforming Irish is not what is the proplem, Its the nonsencical arguments for why it should be done.

I accept some people see the way forward is makeing the language optional in the LC, however I resent being labled a ''Mysty Eyed Nationalist'' For disagreeing that this is the best way forward for the language.

eddyc

deise go deo wrote: »

Well it has been suggested that Irish speakers should have to speak English when dealing with business.

The concept of reforming Irish is not what is the proplem, Its the nonsencical arguments for why it should be done.

I accept some people see the way forward is makeing the language optional in the LC, however I resent being labled a ''Mysty Eyed Nationalist'' For disagreeing that this is the best way forward for the language.

I accept your position, can you accept that there are people in this country that don't want to learn Irish and should be allowed not to.

Focalbhach

deise go deo wrote: »

I resent being labled a ''Mysty Eyed Nationalist'' For disagreeing that this is the best way forward for the language.

Bingo - this nonsense about misty-eyed nationalism and mud huts and political agendas is self-serving, ill-informed tripe, and contributes nothing to a genuine discussion. My interest in Irish is as a living language, and has nothing to do with politics or a misplaced desire to recreate Ireland c. 1500.

Focalbhach

eddyc wrote: »

Righteous indignation aside, Irish speakers are VERY well taken care of in this country and NOBODY here wants them to stop speaking Irish. You'd swear people on here were talking about banning the language which is ridiculous.

You'd think, but I recall a suggestion a few pages back to ring-fence the Gaeltachts and turn them into autonomous sub-regions, where everyone within would speak Irish and everyone without would not

eddyc wrote: »

I think there is a feeling that the money could be better spent on the people who want to learn it than just blanketly signing off millions of Euros for projects to make people speak Irish who don't want to, and to translate documents into Irish that nobody will ever read.

That's fair enough. They're both perfectly valid positions (particularly with regard to the translation of local government documents which, although overplayed as a serious issue, is a less-than-satisfactory system). Not everyone has stated their position so reasonably and respectfully though (as per my last post), which doesn't help the discussion.

Complex social issue will not have a simple solution, but it seems that some posters (not directed at you, eddyc) are more interested in 'obliterating' the other viewpoint that in approximating a mutually satisfactory compromise.

Cú Giobach

Wow!!
Seeing some of the comments in this thread you would think wanting to speak and learn Irish was some sort of heinous crime, an abomination to the English speaking world.
It's an ancient beautiful language that pervades the speech, the grammar and syntax of the vast majority of Irish people (unknown to most).
Most of our own names, the names of our villages, towns, cities and counties all have a meaning that can only be expressed properly through Irish.
In the Irish language are some of the oldest and finest vernacular writings in Europe, the envy of many.
When abroad many many Irish people are proud they can speak the "Cúpla Focail" even if its just slurring "Shláinte" in a Spanish bar, or a "conas a tá tú" in a moment of drunken pride in a London club.
This language is Ours it's something special that we have, something that survived through the worst years of our history and is making it through to the 21st century.
This must be passed on to our children. To loose it would be orders of magnitude worse than if every single trinket and bauble was lost from every museum in the land.
True, mistakes (and bad ones at that) have been made in the teaching of the language, but its forward we should be looking, not back (the same with other things on this Island). We should be finding better ways to pass on this Gem to the next generation, not moaning about how the language was "beaten" into the last.

As long as the department of education realise you learn a language through speaking, not writing, then things should move forward. To bring up a child bilingual is one of the greatest gifts you can give.
Because so many Irish people grow up being exposed to Irish in primary and secondary school, the ease at which they can acquire a 3rd or even a 4th is greatly increased, something we have in common with most Europeans and something that is missing in most monoglotic English speaking countries.
This is a positive thing and to let it drift away would be one more stone layed in the road of regress, that many call progress.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Cú Giobach

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ok, I got a bit carried away there I had the comment "pointless brain dead minority language" in my head. In a long thread I read the first 5-6 pages and the last 5-6.

We spend 13 years teaching this language so that people can slur it abroad when they're drunk?

That is a comment about the very real fact that after a few pints abroad many Irish people enjoy using a few of the words they learned at (and remember from) school. Something you will find happening in bars and pubs all around the world. This is very often a moment when people wished they had a bit more Irish and realise the language meant more to them than they had thought previously.

Can you explain, then, why a 2006 study showed that 66 percent of Irish people were monolingual, the highest percentage in the EU? We were followed by the UK (62 percent), Italy (59 percent), Hungary (58 percent), Portugal (58 percent) and Spain (56 percent).

Quite easily;
Because we are a mostly (by far) an English speaking country and English speaking people have less incentive to learn a second language, Due to the widespread use of that language worldwide.
I stated that people who learned Irish at school Can more easily learn a 3rd language not that they necessarily did. This is an advantage in life that is missing in places where only one language is taught as the norm, with another as an option later in school, ie Being given the choice between say French or History in secondary school.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Focalbhach

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Out of curiosity, have you ever used Irish abroad?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Focalbhach

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Interesting. I find it quite handy.

HxGH

Leto wrote: »

Interesting. I find it quite handy.

It's gets alot of attention from not so Irish people!

cyclopath2001

Leto wrote: »

If the majority of the people of Ireland wanted and were able to speak Irish, they would.

Adopting a second language is difficult. Where I have seen this to succeed is where the parents spoke the second language and the child became bilingual from a very early age. The reason why the English-speaking population of Ireland is not fluent in Irish and does not use it in their lives is beacsue they have decided not to. It's got little to do with formal educational methods.

I have no problem with people having an interest in a revived, updated version of the Irish language, divorced from its cultural context and the original version spoken by some of the original population a third of a millenia ago, but I do not think everyone else should have to pay for this hobby.

It's a bit like Italians reverting to Latin. Intellectually laudable but a niche interest.