Is Irish a dead language?

liammur

One thing is for sure, Gaeilge should not be compulsory in either primary or secondary schools. Takes up far too much time.

The Corinthian

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So you won't show me?

As I said, that is what I have been asking of you, rather than accepting your claims simply on unsubstantiated, and frankly undefined, opinion. Try not to distract attention from that.

Right, understood.

Apparently not.

cyclopath2001

liammur wrote: »

One thing is for sure, Gaeilge should not be compulsory in either primary or secondary schools. Takes up far too much time.

Agreed, the language would thrive if it were adopted and taught voluntarily outside of schools. It's time to take the langauge off the artificial life support of institutional support and return responsibility for its survival to the native-speakers who wish to preserve it.

By the same token, English should be the only official langauge. This would release considerable sums of money, currently used to translate unread documents into Irish, which could be put to better use.

Not being an official language would free Irish from state control and liberate it to develop organically and naturally.

The Corinthian

Returning to the subject of the promotion of the language as national one, an issue that has never really been addressed is its use post-education. Presently, unless you use it for work on a daily basis or live in a Gaeltacht, you will at best encounter it briefly in a few exams (for the civil service or Kings Inns, for example) after which you will simply not need to use or even encounter it ever again.

I can count on one hand how many times I've heard it spoken (off the TV) since leaving secondary school. Even where it comes to television, it can easily be ignored as there is practically nothing in Irish there that one cannot instantly find in English be flicking channels.

One can go to a gaelsceal, or otherwise leave school with a high degree of knowledge or even fluency in the language, but unless you go out of your way to speak it, it will ultimately fall into disuse and over time - you'll become rusty and eventually lose the ability to speak it.

Incentivising and facilitating (note I did not say imposing) post-scholastic use of the language is frankly essential to it's well-being and adoption, and genuinely I cannot understand why it has been considered competent policy to make it obligatory for 12 years of our lives and then ignore the following 50+ years.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

By the same token, English should be the only official langauge.

So Irish speakers should be forced to speak English when dealing with the state?

SeanW

deise go deo wrote: »

So Irish speakers should be forced to speak English when dealing with the state?

Yes. You have to do it for everything else.

Want to get a job at Google or another large private sector employer? Send them your cover letter & CV Ás Gaeilge, and see how far your get.

On your way to your wonderfully bilingual government office, you need directions from a random passer by. Don't bother asking for directions, nor expecting a response As Gaeilge, it won't happen.

So you finish your business in the government office and decide to go to the shop down the street to buy a chocolate bar. You see where this is going?

Or you decide to take a foreign holiday. They might speak English at your destination but they sure as hell won't speak Gaelic.

Life in Ireland forces you to speak English. Claiming that it should be otherwise in a place that happens to be a government office is just mindless legal and ultra-nationalistic pedantry.

liammur

deise go deo wrote: »

So Irish speakers should be forced to speak English when dealing with the state?

I'm afraid so. Outside of irish teachers, how many state workers could speak irish ?

liammur

The Corinthian wrote: »

Incentivising and facilitating (note I did not say imposing) post-scholastic use of the language is frankly essential to it's well-being and adoption, and genuinely I cannot understand why it has been considered competent policy to make it obligatory for 12 years of our lives and then ignore the following 50+ years.

Agreed, but how could irish be 'incentivised' ?

Permabear

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Permabear

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liammur

donegalfella wrote: »

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Correct.
As pointed out by a poster above, once the majority leave school, even those with good irish, it'll be mostly forgotten within 10 years if not used.

deise go deo

SeanW wrote: »

Want to get a job at Google

Would this be the same google that provides its webpage As Gaeilge?

Or you decide to take a foreign holiday. They might speak English at your destination but they sure as hell won't speak Gaelic.

I could go to Canada, Scotland, The Isle of Man and find places where I can speak 'Gaelic' also there are places in America. Not to mention Belfast.
But what dose that have to do with anything?
Are you saying that if a language cant be found outside its national borders then it should not have any standing within its borders?

Life in Ireland forces you to speak English. Claiming that it should be otherwise in a place that happens to be a government office is just mindless legal and ultra-nationalistic pedantry.

Well as it is now they have the right, In principle at least.
How is wanting to speak your own language 'Ultra-Nationalistic'?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

So Irish speakers should be forced to speak English when dealing with the state?

This is hardly a great imposition, as they already speak English and for the most part are descended from generations of English-speakers. It's not the same as forcing Swiss-Italian speakers to speak German.

By enduring the inconvenience of not being able use their favourite langage in dealings with the state, they would be helping to make state services more efficient as they would only need to be provided in one langauge and employees would not be forced to learn Irish.

SeanW

deise go deo wrote: »

Would this be the same google that provides its webpage As Gaeilge

Try sending them a CV and doing an interview As Gaeilge. See how far you get. Actually we just had this farce with Google where they wanted bi-lingual people in their Dublin office and most of them will be foreigners. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056006530

This is primarily because Gaeilgors like you insist on ramming Peig Sayers and suchlike crap down students throats instead of more useful things like Science, Information Technology and Foreign languages, the latter of which would have been more useful in that case, from my preliminary reading of the thread.

Well done.

I could go to Canada, Scotland, The Isle of Man and find places where I can speak 'Gaelic' also there are places in America. Not to mention Belfast.

Pretty limited choice if you ask me.

But what dose that have to do with anything?

Foreign holidays are part of modern Irish life. It's just one of many areas in modern Irish life where the Irish language is virtually useless.

Are you saying that if a language cant be found outside its national borders then it should not have any standing within its borders?

In real terms yes, when:

1. Your country is open and well connected with the outside world
2. Is very small
3. Has a strong and well established tradition of speaking a major world language, as its primary language. Which, like it or not, English is.

Enkidu

The Corinthian wrote: »

Returning to the subject of the promotion of the language as national one, an issue that has never really been addressed is its use post-education. Presently, unless you use it for work on a daily basis or live in a Gaeltacht, you will at best encounter it briefly in a few exams (for the civil service or Kings Inns, for example) after which you will simply not need to use or even encounter it ever again.

.......

Incentivising and facilitating (note I did not say imposing) post-scholastic use of the language is frankly essential to it's well-being and adoption, and genuinely I cannot understand why it has been considered competent policy to make it obligatory for 12 years of our lives and then ignore the following 50+ years.

I agree that this is probably the major hurdle. Although it is difficult to know what could function as an incentive without being essentially unfair to those who don't wish to speak the language. For example guides at heritage sites, e.g. Loughcrew commonly speak Irish, in fact it may be a job requirement. Here it is actually a constructive addition to the guides skills. If there were more jobs like this perhaps it would be a help.

Permabear

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Focalbhach

The Corinthian wrote: »

Returning to the subject of the promotion of the language as national one, an issue that has never really been addressed is its use post-education. Presently, unless you use it for work on a daily basis or live in a Gaeltacht, you will at best encounter it briefly in a few exams (for the civil service or Kings Inns, for example) after which you will simply not need to use or even encounter it ever again.

I can count on one hand how many times I've heard it spoken (off the TV) since leaving secondary school. Even where it comes to television, it can easily be ignored as there is practically nothing in Irish there that one cannot instantly find in English be flicking channels.

Anecdata, I know, but: I neither use Irish for work daily nor live in a Gaeltacht, but I do come across it occasionally in my working life (for which Irish was not required). I've heard it spoken casually in Dublin, Donegal, and Belfast - the last such occasion being yesterday. I'd also note that there are some very good documentaries on TG4 (and RTÉ, sometimes) as Gaeilge, that are not produced in English...

The Corinthian wrote: »

One can go to a gaelsceal, or otherwise leave school with a high degree of knowledge or even fluency in the language, but unless you go out of your way to speak it, it will ultimately fall into disuse and over time - you'll become rusty and eventually lose the ability to speak it.

Incentivising and facilitating (note I did not say imposing) post-scholastic use of the language is frankly essential to it's well-being and adoption, and genuinely I cannot understand why it has been considered competent policy to make it obligatory for 12 years of our lives and then ignore the following 50+ years.

... all that said, I agree with the second part of your post.

The Corinthian

deise go deo wrote: »

Would this be the same google that provides its webpage As Gaeilge?

And Klingon. I wonder which one gets more traffic..?

Enkidu wrote: »

I agree that this is probably the major hurdle. Although it is difficult to know what could function as an incentive without being essentially unfair to those who don't wish to speak the language. For example guides at heritage sites, e.g. Loughcrew commonly speak Irish, in fact it may be a job requirement. Here it is actually a constructive addition to the guides skills. If there were more jobs like this perhaps it would be a help.

Irish as a job requirement is something that is already in place and if only a legal requirement (i.e. you need to pass a test on it but will never use it) it never gets used and falls into disuse. As to it being used in jobs on a day to day basis, this is another tactic that's been used which simply does not work as the demand for Irish language services is too small to be commercially viable, leading to a situation whereby such jobs become drains on the state.

By incentive, you would have to find a way to make people want to learn and speak Irish - without incurring negative attitudes (which is what happens when you give people breaks or money to speak it). I don't know what approach would work, but I would note that if you needed Irish to get laid, you'd learn pretty quickly...

Leto wrote: »

Anecdata, I know, but: I neither use Irish for work daily nor live in a Gaeltacht, but I do come across it occasionally in my working life (for which Irish was not required). I've heard it spoken casually in Dublin, Donegal, and Belfast - the last such occasion being yesterday.

Bizarre as I found in 20 years of living in Ireland (post LC) I only heard it very, very occasionally (outside of flicking channels), and never, ever actually needed it. Even casually, I will have heard Polish spoken in Ireland fifty times for every time I've heard Irish.

Of course, I may simply have tuned it out and had I been paying attention I may have noticed it being used more often. But why would I? What relevance does the language have to me or your average Joe Bloggs beyond some higher ideals that also involve comely maidens dancing at the crossroads? And that's the problem that needs to be addressed.

I'd also note that there are some very good documentaries on TG4 (and RTÉ, sometimes) as Gaeilge, that are not produced in English...

Who's going to learn a language to watch them though?

aDeener

SeanW wrote: »

Try sending them a CV and doing an interview As Gaeilge. See how far you get. Actually we just had this farce with Google where they wanted bi-lingual people in their Dublin office and most of them will be foreigners. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056006530

This is primarily because Gaeilgors like you insist on ramming Peig Sayers and suchlike crap down students throats instead of more useful things like Science, Information Technology and Foreign languages, the latter of which would have been more useful in that case, from my preliminary reading of the thread.

Well done.

Pretty limited choice if you ask me.
Foreign holidays are part of modern Irish life. It's just one of many areas in modern Irish life where the Irish language is virtually useless.


In real terms yes, when:

1. Your country is open and well connected with the outside world
2. Is very small
3. Has a strong and well established tradition of speaking a major world language, as its primary language. Which, like it or not, English is.

what an annoying phrase, nothing is rammed down any students throats :rolleyes:

peig hasnt been on the LC course in ages

Focalbhach

The Corinthian wrote: »

I would note that if you needed Irish to get laid, you'd learn pretty quickly...

I think we should look into this proposal further.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Bizarre as I found in 20 years of living in Ireland (post LC) I only heard it very, very occasionally (outside of flicking channels), and never, ever actually needed it. Even casually, I will have heard Polish spoken in Ireland fifty times for every time I've heard Irish.

Of course, I may simply have tuned it out and had I been paying attention I may have noticed it being used more often. But why would I? What relevance does the language have to me or your average Joe Bloggs beyond some higher ideals that also involve comely maidens dancing at the crossroads? And that's the problem that needs to be addressed.

With respect, you're moving the target. You said initially that one will never hear or use Irish outside school unless required to do so - I am saying that I do hear Irish, and have used Irish for work without its being required. It's a point of information, nothing more. Now you're saying ok, maybe, but I hear Polish much more often, and how does it concern me anyway?

The Corinthian wrote: »

Who's going to learn a language to watch them though?

Again, you're changing the question. You said that "there is practically nothing in Irish there that one cannot instantly find in English be flicking channels". That's not true. I won't speak for other people but I do very much enjoy some of TG4's documentary output, which I don't find anywhere else. Again, a point of information. The notion that someone might learn Irish specifically to watch them is a strawman. I don't think many people learn English, or Spanish, or German, to watch television either.

P. Breathnach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is hardly a great imposition, as they already speak English and for the most part are descended from generations of English-speakers. It's not the same as forcing Swiss-Italian speakers to speak German.

For people whose first language is Irish, it is an imposition, and an insulting one.

The sense of insult might be compounded because some state agencies are actually making an effort to meet the language needs of people whose first language is neither English nor Irish.

By enduring the inconvenience of not being able use their favourite langage in dealings with the state, they would be helping to make state services more efficient as they would only need to be provided in one langauge and employees would not be forced to learn Irish.

Public service employees are not forced to learn Irish. All that is required is that there is a sufficient number of people, properly distributed, who have the ability to work through Irish, and refer certain work to them. That is what actually happens, albeit with some inconsistencies.

There are people for whom Irish is a second language and who prefer to use it. I think they should be accommodated so far as is reasonably possible, but I would hope that they would not grandstand to the point of making it very inconvenient for the public service to deal with them. There is a point, difficult to specify, where standing up for one's rights becomes bullying.

In summary: (a) make a big effort for people whose first language is Irish; (b) make a moderate effort for people for whom Irish is not a first language, but who wish to use it.

In some areas of public service the application of these guidelines is simple. Where public servants (gardaí, health and welfare workers, teachers, district justices, etc.) are assigned to cover an area that includes a gaeltacht, only people who are comfortably fluent in Irish should be used -- which, to a considerable extent, is what happens.

The Corinthian

Leto wrote: »

With respect, you're moving the target. You said initially that one will never hear or use Irish outside school unless required to do so - I am saying that I do hear Irish, and have used Irish for work without its being required. It's a point of information, nothing more. Now you're saying ok, maybe, but I hear Polish much more often, and how does it concern me anyway?

Actually, I challenged your point of information.

Again, you're changing the question. You said that "there is practically nothing in Irish there that one cannot instantly find in English be flicking channels". That's not true. I won't speak for other people but I do very much enjoy some of TG4's documentary output, which I don't find anywhere else. Again, a point of information. The notion that someone might learn Irish specifically to watch them is a strawman. I don't think many people learn English, or Spanish, or German, to watch television either.

No they wouldn't, but most people who do the LC do not have enough Irish to watch an Irish documentary and so we flick the channel and watch something in English instead.

The Corinthian

P. Breathnach wrote: »

For people whose first language is Irish, it is an imposition, and an insulting one.

Maybe the government should accommodate those who want to deal with them through Shelta then?

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

So Irish speakers should be forced to speak English when dealing with the state?

What % of people in Ireland only speak Irish? Do we have that figure?

P. Breathnach

Leto wrote: »

... I don't think many people learn English, or Spanish, or German, to watch television either.

The converse sometimes happens: I watch a certain amount of French-language television in order to improve my French. I have also advised some people who wish to improve their Irish to use TG4 as a learning resource.

P. Breathnach

astrofool wrote: »

What % of people in Ireland only speak Irish? Do we have that figure?

The more relevant figure would be the number who speak Irish as a first language, because those people operate better in Irish than in English.

I don't know if anybody has tried to establish a figure, but my guess would be that it is between 20,000 and 40,000.

Focalbhach

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually, I challenged your point of information.

My personal experience? When you have some way of reliving my memories to verify what I've said to your satisfaction let me know; otherwise I don't really know how to help you out.

In fact, let's run through your own set of options from a couple of pages ago. To refresh:

The Corinthian wrote: »

Now, this may mean that what he has claimed is false, but for it to be intentional, and thus a lie, is certainly not proven. He may come back and demonstrate evidence to prove his case. Or it may be false and he may genuinely, and mistakenly, believe it to be true. Or it could be deliberate.

Now, be explicit. You seem to believe that my information (my own experience) is false. So:

- is what I have claimed intentionally false - i.e., am I lying?
- is it unintentionally false - i.e., did I confuse another overheard language with Irish, or am I mistaken about having used Irish in my working life?
- if you're looking for 'evidence' that my memories independently exist ouside my recollection of them you're setting an impossible standard. Is that it?

I'm all ears.

The Corinthian wrote: »

No they wouldn't, but most people who do the LC do not have enough Irish to watch an Irish documentary and so we flick the channel and watch something in English instead.

And? That's fair enough. It doesn't alter the point that Irish-language programming does exist which does not exist in English. You're perfectly entitled not to watch it, but it does exist.

The Corinthian

Leto wrote: »

My personal experience? When you have some way of reliving my memories to verify what I've said to your satisfaction let me know; otherwise I don't really know how to help you out.

Actually I challenged your anecdotal evidence with my own. Not saying that mine is better, but it's enough to challenge yours.

You will have to concede that it's pretty easy to have little or no contact with Irish as an adult, and very little reason to do so, and this really is my principle point.

I'm all ears.

Buggered if I know - I'm not a psychiatrist.

And? That's fair enough. It doesn't alter the point that Irish-language programming does exist which does not exist in English. You're perfectly entitled not to watch it, but it does exist.

Grand, I'll take your word for it. But It's still hardly life enriching enough to learn a language for.

Focalbhach

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually I challenged your anecdotal evidence with my own. Not saying that mine is better, but it's enough to challenge yours.

The sequence of events, as I see it (paraphrased for brevity):

1) The Corinthian - unless a person works in a job where Irish is required or lives in a Gaeltacht, they will never hear it after school.

2) Leto - Irish is not required in my job, I do not live in a Gaeltacht. I have used it at work and have heard it on multiple occasions.

3) TC - Ok - I haven't.


If we had stopped there it would have been fine.

4) TC - But, Polish is far more common than Irish so why should I care anyway?

5) L - Well... hang on, can we first please acknowledge that your initial Irish-doesn't-exist-unless-required generalisation doesn't hold true for everyone?

6) TC - [generous interpretation] I don't hear it spoken, so it clearly isn't. / [alternative interpretation] I think you're making up what you said about hearing and using Irish.


You did not 'challenge' my point of information, you provided a contrasting (note: not contradictory) point of information. In my initial post I highlighted that it was merely anecdotal, and in my follow-up post again highlighted that it was just one point of information. I don't think I have made any overblown claims about the current state of Irish. I have simply said that your original 'what I see is true for everybody' claim may be a majority experience, but is not the only experience.

The Corinthian wrote: »

You will have to concede that it's pretty easy to have little or no contact with Irish as an adult, and very little reason to do so, and this really is my principle point.

Not once have I said otherwise. In fact, I agreed with you way back that we could do with more reasons to engage with Irish as adults.

I'd still appreciate an acknowledgment that organic contact with Irish does happen outside the Gaeltachts.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Grand, I'll take your word for it. But It's still hardly life enriching enough to learn a language for.

Good thing I never suggested that then. While I'm in the mood, I'll summarise the sequence of events here too:

1) TC - There is no Irish-language programming that can't be gotten in English.

2) L - There is.

3) TC - Yes, but without Irish you can't watch it.

4) L - Obviously. It's still there for anyone who can watch it.

5) TC - Ok, fine. I still wouldn't learn Irish for it.

6) L - *head explodes*


The Corinthian - you make some good points and I generally have a fair respect for your thoughts, but it's both irritating and rude to continually shift what you ask of another person in conversation and then act as if it never happened.

astrofool

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The more relevant figure would be the number who speak Irish as a first language, because those people operate better in Irish than in English.

I don't know if anybody has tried to establish a figure, but my guess would be that it is between 20,000 and 40,000.

I don't think it's more relevant, every other minority in Ireland has to deal with the state through English, Travellers, Polish, French, Germans etc. Why should a minority of Irish people, who can speak English, have millions spent (when we have huge debts) to deal with the state in Irish?

Again, what % only speak Irish?