Is Irish a dead language?

Permabear

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Enkidu

The Corinthian wrote: »

The whole post above.

Thanks Corinthian, something for me to think about.

The Corinthian

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

As I said, I don't have the answers. All I've really tried to do is examine the problem and break it down and then suggest broad solutions - or more correctly areas where those solutions should be implemented.

Unfortunately, the single biggest problem IMHO is not even getting people to learn, speak and adopt the language, but those who are 'protecting' it. For them it represents some sort of untouchable nationalist ideal and/or a source of income, and so any solution that threatens this nineteenth century Gaelic puritanism and/or an cuntas bainc, will be met with antagonism.

deise go deo

The Corinthian wrote: »

Festivals are another option, but the problem with Irish is that it's still dancing at the crossroads with other aspects of 'traditional culture', and so other than a few small exceptions (e.g. Clannad) it's still largely limited to the nineteenth century in terms of music, dance and so on.

Thats not entirely true. I can see where you are comeing from, all you have to do is turn on RnaG to see this kind of 'Trad' thinking, however there are also some modern bands that play music As Gaeilge,
They bring out a CD every year. BellX1, Swell Season, Mundy etc. There was a concert in Rath Carin a few months ago too.

P. Breathnach

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats not entirely true. I can see where you are comeing from, all you have to do is turn on RnaG to see this kind of 'Trad' thinking, however there are also some modern bands that play music As Gaeilge,
They bring out a CD every year. BellX1, Swell Season, Mundy etc. There was a concert in Rath Carin a few months ago too.

How about some Country & Sean-nós? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkpwfu2xPm8

sirromo

I don't believe Irish is a dead language. Death is a state of irreversible lifeleness. I've seen nothing to indicate that the language is in a state of either irreversible lifeleness or irreversible decline.

metrovelvet

sirromo wrote: »

I don't believe Irish is a dead language. Death is a state of irreversible lifeleness. I've seen nothing to indicate that the language is in a state of either irreversible lifeleness or irreversible decline.

Well its certainly being kept alive artificially.

P. Breathnach

metrovelvet wrote: »

Well its certainly being kept alive artificially.

After over 1500 posts, the discussion has advanced this far.

deise go deo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

How about some Country & Sean-nós? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkpwfu2xPm8

There will always be a place for country and Sean-nós, however I was makeing the point that there is also a more 'modern' type of music there too. I can see that alot of people like the more traditional forms of music but personally I beleive that it would be better to include more modern music on RnaG etc for younger listeners.

Iwasfrozen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

After over 1500 posts, the discussion has advanced this far.

Funny how things always come back to the truth.

Dionysus

metrovelvet wrote: »

What they really should do, aside from not print in glossy full colour, is have a special mailing list for people in the Gaeltacht.

I don't live in the Gaeltacht and I don't want the English-language version "shoved down my throat" (to use the emotive language of some here). People have been speaking Irish in my area for many, many centuries - millenia, in fact - longer than they have been speaking English. I don't pay my taxes to create an Ireland which might as well be England. I could move to England, pay less taxes and get that quality of life.

Dionysus

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I teach English during the summer and I can assure you that, without exception, every single English language school I have taught in in Ireland has signs up instructing students to 'Speak English Here' or that 'English only [is] spoken here' and its many variants. I can also tell you without fear of contradiction that every tefl teacher in Ireland has to tell some of his/her students to stop speaking French/Spanish/etc and to Speak English - at least once within each class.

And at break times, the vast majority of all of these students speak their native language to each other and avoid English like the plague. This view will be supported by anybody else who has taught English to foreign students in Ireland.

As for adult learners of English and Irish: both are there because they want to be. The exception to this is, ironically, the many non-English-speaking foreigners who are forced to attend English classes as a condition of the visa issued to them by the Irish state. Those guys sign the register and have zero (or close to it) interest in actually learning English: they simply attend classes because it enables them to work in Ireland and support their families at home. This is the reality of English-language schools in Ireland which is little known, but paid for by Irish taxpayers.

Dionysus

metrovelvet wrote: »

Well its certainly being kept alive artificially.

Indeed. If only we could be as "honest" about other state intervention, including the state intervention which keeps so many English-language schools in business through subsidising their existence.

Indeed, withdraw state finance ("subsidies"? "hand-outs"?) from any subject on the curriculum and it will be weakened - and that definitely includes English.

Dionysus

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Funny how things always come back to the truth.

This

The Corinthian

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats not entirely true. I can see where you are comeing from, all you have to do is turn on RnaG to see this kind of 'Trad' thinking, however there are also some modern bands that play music As Gaeilge,
They bring out a CD every year. BellX1, Swell Season, Mundy etc. There was a concert in Rath Carin a few months ago too.

Who? I'm not being facetious, but I've never heard of any of these.

To put it another way, I have no doubt you can find any kind of music style done through Irish, it's only that this is presently very much the exception rather than the rule as the vast majority still seems to be based on traditional forms.

Clannad and Enya are the only two (one and a half, really) examples I can think of that, while they originally came from this school, managed to break away into more mainstream popular music - although, regrettably, in doing so anglicized as a result.

Dionysus wrote: »

People have been speaking Irish in my area for many, many centuries - millenia, in fact - longer than they have been speaking English.

Not wishing to be pedantic, but the oldest form of Irish dates back only about 1,700 years and would be unintelligible to a modern Irish speaker. Prior to that the language was, from what I gather, a variant of Gaulish. Modern Irish, on the other hand, is comparable to modern English in terms of age.

This is not to dismiss the language, as most languages are of similar ages - only to point out how claiming how we've been speaking it for millennia is very silly jingoism.

I don't pay my taxes to create an Ireland which might as well be England. I could move to England, pay less taxes and get that quality of life.

I suppose the US "might as well be England" too by the same logic - and if not there is more to culture than language.

Dionysus wrote: »

As for adult learners of English and Irish: both are there because they want to be. The exception to this is, ironically, the many non-English-speaking foreigners who are forced to attend English classes as a condition of the visa issued to them by the Irish state.

Here's an idea, let's teach them Irish instead. This will be invaluable for reading the documentation in the Social Welfare offices when they're getting assistance because they can't find a job without English.

deise go deo

The Corinthian wrote: »

Who? I'm not being facetious, but I've never heard of any of these.

To put it another way, I have no doubt you can find any kind of music style done through Irish, it's only that this is presently very much the exception rather than the rule as the vast majority still seems to be based on traditional forms.

Clannad and Enya are the only two (one and a half, really) examples I can think of that, while they originally came from this school, managed to break away into more mainstream popular music - although, regrettably, in doing so anglicized as a result.

1. Eddie Reader - Foirfe
2. Bellx1- Bladhm
3. Mick Flannery - Nuachtáin Lae Amhárach
4. The Coronas - Taibhse Nó Laochra
5. The Devlins -Cóinleach Glas An Fhómhair
6. The Swell Season - Grá Dom Leonach
7. Noelie McDonnell - Tri Bliana D'Aois
8. Luane Parle - Taibhse
9. Declan O'Rourke - Coscáin Ar Bith
10. Gemma Hayes - Rith Mé co crích
11. Mundy - Cailín Gaillimhe
12. Fiach - Is Aoibhse
13. The Walls - Grian Gheal lonrach
14. The Sawdoctors - An cailín Sin
15. Wallis Bird - Comhaireamh chun cordladh
16. Kíla - Cabhraigíléi
17. Bonus track - The Coronas - éist a ghrá

This is from a cd called Ceol 10.
One has been brought out every year since 05.

P. Breathnach

[Funny: I thought from exchanges earlier in this thread that the song tradition was not to be regarded as important.]

The thing about popular culture is that what is popular is chosen by, well, the populace. And quite a few people actually like the received tradition, so it continues, albeit with some modifications such as the use of instruments that were not used in the past.

But the tradition also evolves. It has flirted with European art music in a continuum that extends from Carolan to O'Riada and beyond; groups like the Chieftains have experimented with musical traditions from all over the world; Bill Whelan's music for Riverdance emerges from traditional music, but is by no means confined to it. And yes, the Country & Sean-nós linked earlier is an authentic evolution from traditional music. As is, in another direction, the music of Liam Ó Maonlaí.

There is another line of evolution that people often ignore: a bridging of the English-speaking and Gaelic traditions. It's a big question on which I am am far from expert, but popular bands like Planxty had roots in both. I'd suggest that anywhere Donal Lunny has been, the two strands of our tradition have been woven together, and he is not the only musician to have been open to those two great influences.

In the 1960s Gael Linn tried the "hip" approach and issued some pop-chéirníní, including one by Sonny Knowles. I suspect that few people remember them. It's just a bad idea to try to drive popular culture from outside.

Just for fun, Kate Bush singing in Irish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shV-tT8cY-A

On the other hand, here is an illustration of why I want our heritage maintained -- pure and beautiful sean-nós: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsvAU1SO0Uk. I'm not opposed to developing or expanding the tradition, but I sure as hell don't want to lose such treasures.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

This is from a cd called Ceol 10.
One has been brought out every year since 05.

Would it be correct to say that Irish music is doing much better than Irish speaking? And that Irish music is not heavily funded by the English-speaking taxpayer, whereas Irish speaking is? It goes to show how well the langauge might do if the state got out of the language business.

sirromo

I think it would be fair to say that the future of Irish is largely dependent on how well the immigrants take to the language. The share of the Irish population made up of gaelic-descended people is likely to shrink over the next few decades and so it's unlikely that we'll be able to rely on the state giving preference to a language associated with only one of several ethnic groups.

I can see the Irish language being one of the major sources of tension between ethnic groups in this country over the next few decades. With countries like America and Germany having problems getting their immigrants to speak one common language, what chance do we have of getting immigrants to consent to having their children learn a language that has no practical value and of which they will feel no historical attachment?

We need to face up to the fact that the only reason Irish is being supported by the state is because it's the language that was spoken by the ancestors of most Irish people living in Ireland today. People who believe otherwise are deluding themselves.

P. Breathnach

sirromo wrote: »

... We need to face up to the fact that the only reason Irish is being supported by the state is because it's the language that was spoken by the ancestors of most Irish people living in Ireland today. People who believe otherwise are deluding themselves.

If we adjust the time frame, we can equally say that English is a language spoken by the ancestors of most Irish people living in Ireland today. But I agree that one of the major reasons why the state supports Irish is because it is an ancestral language. There are some concomitants:

• the Irish language has been a factor in shaping our culture, even for those of us for whom English is our first language (even our form of English, Hiberno-English, owes an amount to Irish);
• having a language of our own marks us as a separate nation;
• Irish has the special quality of being not-English.

metrovelvet

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If we adjust the time frame, we can equally say that English is a language spoken by the ancestors of most Irish people living in Ireland today. But I agree that one of the major reasons why the state supports Irish is because it is an ancestral language. There are some concomitants:

• the Irish language has been a factor in shaping our culture, even for those of us for whom English is our first language (even our form of English, Hiberno-English, owes an amount to Irish);
• having a language of our own marks us as a separate nation;
• Irish has the special quality of being not-English.

Ireland wouldn't even be on the cultural map if it didn't speak English. Everything and everyone Irish, the rest of the world knows anything about, produce in English, from writers to actors to musicians. Otherwise, it would be just another dinky country speaking a local language no one else in the world knows.

I for one am glad that the Irish speak English because if they didn't all those immigrants, like my parents would have had much harder time in America.

cyclopath2001

sirromo wrote: »

We need to face up to the fact that the only reason Irish is being supported by the state is because it's the language that was spoken by the ancestors of most Irish people living in Ireland today.

Vote catching and the finiancial interests of the Irish language industry are other reasons.

The Corinthian

P. Breathnach wrote: »

[Funny: I thought from exchanges earlier in this thread that the song tradition was not to be regarded as important.]

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let it go.

Practice what you preach.

sirromo wrote: »

I think it would be fair to say that the future of Irish is largely dependent on how well the immigrants take to the language.

Depends on where they're from. If their mother tongue is English, all well and good and some will take it up so as to be seen to 'integrate' and show loyalty towards their new Fatherland. If not, and they need to choose whether to learn Irish or English, the latter will win out as it is essential for employment, while the former is not.

I can see the Irish language being one of the major sources of tension between ethnic groups in this country over the next few decades.

I don't entirely disagree, in so far as Irish could gain some following as a means to differentiate one from the immigrant population.

We need to face up to the fact that the only reason Irish is being supported by the state is because it's the language that was spoken by the ancestors of most Irish people living in Ireland today. People who believe otherwise are deluding themselves.

Money is another reason unfortunately. Residents of the Gaeltachts benefit from the Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge, which effectively pays them to speak Irish, and they additionally receive tax breaks, grants and profit from the teaching of Irish as an industry in their area (e.g. student accommodation).

Outside of the Gaeltachts quite a few people make a living out of the language. Irish Language broadcasting employs quite a few in both TV and radio, and the need to translate documents, both domestically and in Brussels, employs many more.

Teaching jobs in state schools probably are not so dependent on Irish, despite being the single largest area where the language is used on a daily basis, as employment is based on class size rather than subjects, AFAIK. However, it would undoubtedly be a factor in the private grinds industry that many teachers moonlight in, not to mention private schools that offer Irish.

As such you really cannot dismiss the financial incentive to support the language both in direct state-sponsored employment and incentives and the artificial market that is created through its status.

astrofool

I just got an image of P. Breathnach as Bertie Ahern, telling the doom mongers of the housing boom irish language to go top themselves

There is a lot of similarities there.

State supported industry, relying on state mandate to keep itself going, that will ultimately collapse in on itself if the money ever runs out.

Enkidu

sirromo wrote: »

I can see the Irish language being one of the major sources of tension between ethnic groups in this country over the next few decades. With countries like America and Germany having problems getting their immigrants to speak one common language, what chance do we have of getting immigrants to consent to having their children learn a language that has no practical value and of which they will feel no historical attachment?

Sorry, perhaps I'm being unfair, but I don't see this as realistic. I doubt the Irish language will lead to actual ethnic tension, simply because I don't see any evidence of a smaller scale reaction at the moment. Since most of the immigrants living here are from the North or the rest of the UK, which I would imagine (perhaps I'm wrong) are more likely to have ethnicity related tension to the language (given the history) than Polish or Nigerian immigrants and we have yet to see major ethnic tensions here from those groups over the Irish language, I find it difficult to imagine genuine ethnic tensions developing between people of Gaelic descent and others in this country. Probably people will complain, but I doubt this will have an ethnic edge to it to the extent that it will lead to tensions.

metrovelvet

Enkidu wrote: »

Sorry, perhaps I'm being unfair, but I don't see this as realistic. I doubt the Irish language will lead to actual ethnic tension, simply because I don't see any evidence of a smaller scale reaction at the moment. Since most of the immigrants living here are from the North or the rest of the UK, which I would imagine (perhaps I'm wrong) are more likely to have ethnicity related tension to the language (given the history) than Polish or Nigerian immigrants and we have yet to see major ethnic tensions here from those groups over the Irish language, I find it difficult to imagine genuine ethnic tensions developing between people of Gaelic descent and others in this country. Probably people will complain, but I doubt this will have an ethnic edge to it to the extent that it will lead to tensions.

I know all the local Polish, Latvians, and Lithuanians all get extra English lessons, but not Irish lessons. Ironically, or oddly it was suggested to me that I send my son to and Irish school so that his education is not held back by people who don't know how to speak English. Go figure. According to the person offering me the advice, it makes no difference that I know no Irish and couldn't even read the homework instructions in Irish or any bits of consent forms or anything other than Baile Atha Cliath and Mna and Fir.

Enkidu

metrovelvet wrote: »

I know all the local Polish, Latvians, and Lithuanians all get extra English lessons, but not Irish lessons. Ironically, or oddly it was suggested to me that I send my son to and Irish school so that his education is not held back by people who don't know how to speak English. Go figure. According to the person offering me the advice, it makes no difference that I know no Irish and couldn't even read the homework instructions in Irish or any bits of consent forms or anything other than Baile Atha Cliath and Mna and Fir.

I've no doubt that this is true, i.e. that a person told you this, but do you think that the presence of the Irish language in education could actually be a source of ethnic tension?

I mean, I can see people complaining and then if a significant number no longer have historic connections to it will question the cultural reasons for it. However, I think they would simply add more voices to the already present questioning of its role in education, rather than focusing it into some kind of ethnic issue.

Maybe I'm wrong though.

metrovelvet

Enkidu wrote: »

I've no doubt that this is true, i.e. that a person told you this, but do you think that the presence of the Irish language in education could actually be a source of ethnic tension?

I mean, I can see people complaining and then if a significant number no longer have historic connections to it will question the cultural reasons for it. However, I think they would simply add more voices to the already present questioning of its role in education, rather than focusing it into some kind of ethnic issue.

Maybe I'm wrong though.

I think it could cause a lot of resentment especially to those kids who were born in Ireland but not entitled to citizenship, but have to take the leaving cert in Irish. Learning Irish is all about identity, but these kids are not Irish and never will be, so why make them take it?

Enkidu

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think it could cause a lot of resentment especially to those kids who were born in Ireland but not entitled to citizenship, but have to take the leaving cert in Irish. Learning Irish is all about identity, but these kids are not Irish and never will be, so why make them take it?

Possible, but personally I just don't see this being an effect on a large enough group of people to lead to ethnic tensions. I mean how many children will there be who will be born here and educated here without ever possessing citizenship, who will see compulsory Irish as a focal point of ethnic discrimination?

metrovelvet

Enkidu wrote: »

Possible, but personally I just don't see this being an effect on a large enough group of people to lead to ethnic tensions. I mean how many children will there be who will be born here and educated here without ever possessing citizenship, who will see compulsory Irish as a focal point of ethnic discrimination?

I think ethnic tensions is a bit strong. But Irish is part of a bigger ideological package of identity and state. There will be plenty here who do not have citizenship.

Hmnnn forcing someone to learn a language not already in natural use. I dont think foreign nationals should be forced to learn it. The more I think about it the more wrong it seems.

I think anyone NOT from the Gaeltact should get automatic extra points on their exams.