Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yet you have tried to turn the emphasis away from those costs.

Well then lets put some emphasis on the costs. How much is Irish costing us? Do you have any figures?

The Corinthian

deise go deo wrote: »

Well then lets put some emphasis on the costs. How much is Irish costing us? Do you have any figures?

That is a pretty big task. To begin with you would have to identify first direct costs to the tax payer (e.g. Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge), then more indrect costs (such as loss of tax revenue due to tax breaks) and then other indirect costs incurred by the tax payer, such as the cost of sending students to the Gaeltact.

Then there is the cost (or excess of expenditure over income in some cases) of the various bodies set up to promote Irish, including broadcasting.

Finally there are the more nebulous opportunity costs, such as the educational time devoted to Irish that could be employed on other subjects, or time spent sitting exams in Irish for jobs that will never actually use the language.

To get us started, a few costs would include €30 million, in 2007, for EU translation to Irish. One could also point to the cost of creating employment in the Gaeltacht that was recently estimated at €243m for just 33 jobs (that's €7 million per job - wouldn't it be cheaper just to give them all €5 million in cash?). Or €700k p.a. to teach Irish abroad.

Of course, in fairness, even this does not represent the cost of the Irish language, but a combination of the cost of the Irish language and the Gaeltachts under the present system - which many will agree is in dire need of reform (until it means they lose money, that is).

Still, it's a start. Anyone want to chip in with more comprehensive figures?

recedite

The Corinthian wrote: »

Still, it's a start. Anyone want to chip in with more comprehensive figures?

Those figures are shocking enough already; I nearly fell off my chair.

caseyann

Irish online book club wins European language award:cool:
http://www.siliconrepublic.com/start-ups/item/17986-irish-online-book-club-wins

The website, ClubLeabhar.com, is designed to encourage Irish speakers of all levels, in Ireland and in countries such as America and Australia, where Irish speakers are actively trying to promote the language, to read more Irish-language material.


As i have said previously its growing and not just here
The whole myth of it dying out is merely a wish by those who do not hold a love and respect for their native tongue,which is Irish.;)

The Corinthian

caseyann wrote: »

As i have said previously its growing and not just here

Do you actually have any figures to back up that claim?

While certainly not definitive, the shrinking boundaries of the Galetachts (1926, 1956, 2007) are certainly a key indicator of it's decline, and no number of government funded projects are going to hide that fact. That it is slowly being given up on in different sectors of our society is another indicator that cannot be ignored.

To highlight this is not out of any kind of morbid glee in it's demise, but to hopefully awaken some of the so-called supporters of the language who appear to be trapped in some form of patriotic fantasy, where all is well - when in reality is not.

Realizing there is a problem and dealing with it is what's necessary, not pretending that there is no problem, just because a tiny minority of the population get bankrolled to put up web sites that win a few prizes, but no one uses.

The whole myth of it dying out is merely a wish by those who do not hold a love and respect for their native tongue,which is Irish.;)

Oddly, the native tongue of most Irish is English, it is what we natively are brought up speaking and is an official language of Ireland.

I really do find this holier than thou attitude a little pathetic, not to mention self-defeating. This, and not the language, is what I can neither comprehend nor stomach. Either Gaeilge is a living language or it is a sacred cow - but the practicalities of it is that it cannot afford to be both.

deise go deo

The Corinthian wrote: »

Do you actually have any figures to back up that claim?

While certainly not definitive, the shrinking boundaries of the Galetachts (1926, 1956, 2007) are certainly a key indicator of it's decline, and no number of government funded projects are going to hide that fact. That it is slowly being given up on in different sectors of our society is another indicator that cannot be ignored.

Thats an example of it being given up on? Deppressing stuff:pac:
There are plenty of signs it is growing, Link
No language nor policy is static, that dosent mean it is dyeing:rolleyes:

Those maps are far from accurate, Im from Waterford and Irish was not near that widespread in the 20's. Also several Gaelthachts were left out of the 2007 map.

I really do find this holier than thou attitude a little pathetic, not to mention self-defeating. This, and not the language, is what I can neither comprehend nor stomach. Either Gaeilge is a living language or it is a sacred cow - but the practicalities of it is that it cannot afford to be both.

Holier than thou? Who? People who promote Irish? Dident think you were one for silly generalizations
What do you mean 'sacred cow'? Irish is by the definition of the term, a living language. It also needs to be promoted, there is no contradiction there

The Corinthian

deise go deo wrote: »

There are plenty of signs it is growing, Link

How is that a sign of it growing? Maybe this is a sign that Klingon is growing too?

Those maps are far from accurate, Im from Waterford and Irish was not near that widespread in the 20's. Also several Gaelthachts were left out of the 2007 map.

And I said it is not definitive by any stretch, and only an indicator, as is how it is being given up in some corners on because it's "no longer practical or realistic".

One of the principle problems with measuring the health of the language is that there are no objective surveys. Usage is measured either by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs - who have a vested interest in keeping the numbers up - or by self assessment, which is a grossly inaccurate means of measuring numbers.

Holier than thou? Who? People who promote Irish? Dident think you were one for silly generalizations
What do you mean 'sacred cow'? Irish is by the definition of the term, a living language.

If you cannot see that someone coming out with a cretinous statement such as "those who do not hold a love and respect for their native tongue" is being holier than thou, then you have problems with understanding English, whatever about Irish.

Irish is by the definition of the term, a living language. It also needs to be promoted, there is no contradiction there

I completely agree. Irish is a living language. It does need to be promoted. I even posted earlier my thoughts on how this could be achieved - only to be attacked for threatening the Gaeltacht gravy train and suggesting that standardizing the language might be a good idea!

This orthodox, pseudo-religious, attitude that leads many to deride as heresy any criticism of that promotion, the money squandered on it or that it, God forbid, could be in decline, is frankly what will kill the language.

I think it's just tragic.

deise go deo

The Corinthian wrote: »

How is that a sign of it growing? Maybe this is a sign that Klingon is growing too?

AFAIK Klingon is growing. Whats your point,
The Gaelcgárta is as much a sign that it is growing as barristers not haveing to pass an exam in it is a sign of its decline.

And I said it is not definitive by any stretch, and only an indicator, as is how it is being given up in some corners on because it's "no longer practical or realistic".

How is it no longer 'practical or realistic'?
The gaelthacts are weaker than they once were, I'm not disputing that, but that is not the only indicator for the health of the language, while the gaelthachts have been and may still be in decline, the gaelscoil movement is going from strength to strength.
You cannot just take one factor and apply that across the board.

If you cannot see that someone coming out with a cretinous statement such as "those who do not hold a love and respect for their native tongue" is being holier than thou, then you have problems with understanding English, whatever about Irish.

No need to get personal. So he has a bias for the language, your language in describing him as 'a little pathetic' could also be described as cretinous.

I completely agree. Irish is a living language. It does need to be promoted. I even posted earlier my thoughts on how this could be achieved - only to be attacked for threatening the Gaeltacht gravy train and suggesting that standardizing the language might be a good idea!

Then why the constant attacks on both the language and its promoters?
There is a standardized form of Irish, Just because people don't think it should be forced on people living in the gaelthachts dosent mean they are against having a standard.

This orthodox, pseudo-religious, attitude that leads many to deride as heresy any criticism of that promotion, the money squandered on it or that it, God forbid, could be in decline, is frankly what will kill the language.

I think it's just tragic.

No I don't disagree with you over it being in decline because I have some pseudo-religious attitude to Irish, I disagree with you because I don't think it is actually in decline.
We all agree that the money spent on it could in many cases be spent better.
Iv heard a pro-Irish poster say you could pour in 5 billion more into the system and still not produce any more speakers because of how the system is set up.
So this, we all just want the status quo maintained stuff is just false, I don't doubt there are some who are happy with the system as it is, but there are not very many of them here.

The Corinthian

deise go deo wrote: »

AFAIK Klingon is growing. Whats your point,
The Gaelcgárta is as much a sign that it is growing as barristers not haveing to pass an exam in it is a sign of its decline.

As far as you know?

How is it no longer 'practical or realistic'?

I was quoting the reasoning given by the government for dropping it, not my personal opinion, so you'll really have to ask them.

No need to get personal. So he has a bias for the language, your language in describing him as 'a little pathetic' could also be described as cretinous.

So he's not being "holier than thou", he just has "a bias for the language" - seriously, give me a break.

Then why the constant attacks on both the language and its promoters?

It's not an attack on the language - it's a wake-up call. As to attacking its 'promoters', this is because I believe that they are ultimately the one's who will kill it, though their intransigence and self-interest. Those who are openly hostile to the language, of which I am not one, will not actually kill it - they'll just bury the corpse after the Gaelgores let it die.

No I don't disagree with you over it being in decline because I have some pseudo-religious attitude to Irish, I disagree with you because I don't think it is actually in decline.

Show me a single shred of credible evidence that shows that it is not. Almost all the indicators out there show the opposite - shrinking Gaeltachts, decreasing percentages, the dropping of Irish as a prerequisite in many areas of life; from the printing of government material to entry exams.

Slowly, but surely, your average Joe Murphy is having less and less contact or interest in the language. Instead, special interest clubs and Web sites are taking the place of previously national institutions, resembling a Gaelgore ghetto.

We all agree that the money spent on it could in many cases be spent better.
Iv heard a pro-Irish poster say you could pour in 5 billion more into the system and still not produce any more speakers because of how the system is set up.

Yet even in this thread we've heard some defending this system, referring to the Gaeltachts as some sort of sacred cow that should be protected, no matter what the cost.

And for all the talk of wasted money, no one has suggested cuts or smarter spending. Even the government's '20-year plan' is little more than a quangopolis.

So this, we all just want the status quo maintained stuff is just false, I don't doubt there are some who are happy with the system as it is, but there are not very many of them here.

Then do something about it. Another thirty to fifty years and it's all over otherwise.

deise go deo

The Corinthian wrote: »

As far as you know?

Yes, I have heard that Klingon is a language that is growing.
I dont know if its true but thats what I have heard.

I was quoting the reasoning given by the government for dropping it, not my personal opinion, so you'll really have to ask them.

Fair enough, Not really all that signifant IMO.

So he's not being "holier than thou", he just has "a bias for the language" - seriously, give me a break.

I suppose it depends on your perspective, I tried to give a guy an I love Gaeilge sticker last night and he nearly bit my head off,
Dont force Irish down my troath etc etc. To him it may seam to be a ''Holier than Thou'' attuide. To me its just a bias twords Irish.

As to attacking its 'promoters', this is because I believe that they are ultimately the one's who will kill it, though their intransigence and self-interest.

I doubt it, As I said some people have a self intrest in Irish, But I dont think many do, I certainly dont have a self intrest
(ie I dont get any financhial reward for promoating Irish)

Show me a single shred of credible evidence that shows that it is not. Almost all the indicators out there show the opposite - shrinking Gaeltachts, decreasing percentages, the dropping of Irish as a prerequisite in many areas of life; from the printing of government material to entry exams.

The Gaelscoil Movement, Cumann Gaelachs in Universities(some of which are the largest Socities in their Universities)

Slowly, but surely, your average Joe Murphy is having less and less contact or interest in the language. Instead, special interest clubs and Web sites are taking the place of previously national institutions, resembling a Gaelgore ghetto.

Thats what things like the Gaelchárta are about, Visibility.
I just spent last night handing out Gaeilge stickers(they happen to be a fantastic chat up line) In Limerick.

Yet even in this thread we've heard some defending this system, referring to the Gaeltachts as some sort of sacred cow that should be protected, no matter what the cost.

Well as you said, Irish needs to be promoated, As for the Gaelthachts being a sacred cow, They are not, but supporting them makes sence if you want to promoat the language. While there are many problems in the system that dosent mean there are no good aspects to it.
I think when people defend the system what they are really defending is the concept that Irish should be supported. If you asked them if they are happy with the system as it is I would imagin they would not be in most cases.

And for all the talk of wasted money, no one has suggested cuts or smarter spending. Even the government's '20-year plan' is little more than a quangopolis.

Well I for one would like to see a rationalisation of the translation of documents, Im not sure how this could be done but translating documents that no one reads is obviously a problem that need to be addressed.

Then do something about it. Another thirty to fifty years and it's all over otherwise.

Well I am Personaly trying to Promoat Irish. I set up a Cumann Gaeilge in UL this year, We will be providing Irish classes, trips to the gaelthacht, Irish events etc,
As for doing something about waste, What can I do? I will be voteing for FG at the next election as they seam to have some ambition for change but there is not much I can do other than that is there?

dambarude

One of the issues regarding the Irish language is becoming increasingly like an issue that faces the economy: public and media perception. Please forgive the extended metaphor that follows!

If media/commentators say the economy is dead, there's no point trying to revive it, lets call in the EU and the IMF- people listen. If they continue to say it, people start to believe it, resulting in further penny pinching and drops in economic productivity. The economy isn't dead (yet anyway), but tales of doom and imminent collapse increase the likelihood of it happening.

The Irish language- certain commentators say that it is dead, there's no point in reviving it, lets bury it, and people listen. The more people hear of this the more likely it'll be believed. Result- few bother trying to learn it because 'isn't it dead anyway?'. The Irish language isn't dead, but the more that people hear it is, the more likely they'll give up on it.

I'm probably shooting myself in the foot saying the next bit, but... an analogy can also be drawn with the banks.

Some say that pumping billions into them is a waste of time, that there will never be a return on it. Others say that it is the only way out, and that eventually it will help in renewal, and at the very least put a stop to a further deterioration.

People may say that pouring millions into the Irish language is a waste of time, that there will never be a return on it. Other say that it is the only way to save the language, and that it will help its renewal, and at the very least stop a further deterioration in the number speaking it.

Personally I think that neither that neither the Irish language, nor the economy for that matter, are dead. I also believe that while it's not great that money needs to be spent on putting them right, if it achieves what it's meant to achieve it's money well spent.

del_c

I'd have to agree this is not being holier than thou. To love respect and cherish something is to nurture it at every opportunity.

Irish was the language of this country up until relatively recently. It influences today how we speak english and a central part of our identity. I am always surprised at the level of anti-irishness displayed in debates like this, but I actually believe it to be a throwback to the Famine, whose effects were suffered the most by the gaelic speakers. As a general rule the more english you could speak the better your chance of survival.

We are all survivors of the 19th Century cataclyisms of famine and emigration, which affected Ireland, which means many of our ancestors would have sat minding their fields of turnips, while the landless cottier and labouring classes starved around them. Not an easy thing to do, but maybe made easier if you convinced yourself these people were somehow more backward, primitive and ignorant than you were. The Irish language was identified with all of these attributes.

In addition to this, material advancement in Ireland in 19th century was best obtained by thinking english, imitating english and rejecting that which we left behind....people we could still sneer at when they came into our towns speaking only Irish with the arse out of their trousers...ask people of previous generations about the scant regard "Connemara Men" (itinerant agriculture labourers) were held in, even in rural areas in the West of Ireland, hardly bastions of modernisation themselves.

Our society was decimated culturally by colonialism and our morale and self-esteem shattered; we have still not thrown off these pyschological shackles. In my opinion, this is why debates like this are littered with anti-irish messages...and will continue to be until we grow up as a confident nation.

What's not to like about Irish; it is beautiful and it is ours, and teaching a second language to kids from the age of five, and having a host of them in Gaelscoilleanna, does wonders for a child's language acquisition skills, which is of benefit later in life.

It's just a pity people are so inhibited about using the language, but talking it down like this, when in fact there is certainly more irish used on a daily basis in the country now than there was 20 years ago (simply by adding the couple of thousand children in irish schools), is a real shame to see.

As for putting a monetary "value" on irish...must everything have a monetary price to make it worthwhile? What about love, music, art, beauty, identity, pride and culture?

Speak a cúpla focal everyday, I started 6 months ago, not having spoken irish for 20 years...it'll make you feel totally different about the language.

Slán

The Corinthian

deise go deo wrote: »

Fair enough, Not really all that signifant IMO.

No doubt that the government is citing the use of Irish in certain institutions as "no longer practical or realistic" is an unimportant detail and in no way relevant to the state of the language.

I suppose it depends on your perspective, I tried to give a guy an I love Gaeilge sticker last night and he nearly bit my head off,
Dont force Irish down my troath etc etc. To him it may seam to be a ''Holier than Thou'' attuide. To me its just a bias twords Irish.

I am not rejecting the language. I have repeatedly stated that I would like to see it flurish. However, neither am I going to hide behind quasi-fanatical language that suggests that if you are in any way critical of the language you must "not hold a love and respect for their native tongue" - that's not a simple bias, that's a religion.

I doubt it, As I said some people have a self intrest in Irish, But I dont think many do, I certainly dont have a self intrest
(ie I dont get any financhial reward for promoating Irish)

I have not suggested that all who presently pretend to support the language do profit from it. I've specifically pointed out that this is one of the traits, the other one being some form of crypto-religious nationalism that speaks in terms of black and white.

The Gaelscoil Movement, Cumann Gaelachs in Universities(some of which are the largest Socities in their Universities)

Credible evidence please.

As for the Gaelthachts being a sacred cow, They are not, but supporting them makes sence if you want to promoat the language.

I do not disagree, as long as you are supporting them because you are promoting the language and not for their own sake - especially if it becomes detrimental to the language.

For example, if a new standard were to be imposed, so as to better facilitate the language on a national level, would you impose it also on the Gaelthachts? If not, are you not really serving them and not the language?

I think when people defend the system what they are really defending is the concept that Irish should be supported. If you asked them if they are happy with the system as it is I would imagin they would not be in most cases.

Not much use if any kind of criticism is shot down as heresy though.

All I have attempted to do is approach the problem from the viewpoint that there's a problem and we need to find a solution. How can Ireland truly become bilingual, rather than Irish being a the domain of a tiny minority?

dambarude wrote: »

The Irish language- certain commentators say that it is dead, there's no point in reviving it, lets bury it, and people listen. The more people hear of this the more likely it'll be believed.

This may be a factor, but realistically you should not exaggerate this influence. After all, decades of being told that the language is alive haven't really made that much of an impact.

Personally I think that neither that neither the Irish language, nor the economy for that matter, are dead. I also believe that while it's not great that money needs to be spent on putting them right, if it achieves what it's meant to achieve it's money well spent.

I've emphasized the key phrase.

del_c wrote: »

[800 years of oppression diatribe]

Are you discussing a language or a political cause?

As for putting a monetary "value" on irish...must everything have a monetary price to make it worthwhile? What about love, music, art, beauty, identity, pride and culture?

Everything does have a monetary - and by extension, human - price in the end, like it or not. Following principle, regardless of the cost, has caused more misery and pain to the very people those principles claimed to represent than any other blight.

Crusades and Jihads, Soviet Five Year Plans, Wars to gain Lebensraum, Cultural revolutions, Inquisitions and witch-burnings, revolutions, terrors and restorations - all had a price that was ignored because the principle was too important. Even art - Nero thought the burning of Rome an acceptable price to pay for the possibility to rebuild it afresh.

There's only one type of person who cares not for the price that his fellow man must pay for his ideals, I'm afraid.

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

Irish was the language of this country up until relatively recently.

It was the language of many but not all of the people of Ireland and I don't think the 19th century is relatively recent. What's more important is that the vast majority of Irish people have chosen, for many generations, not to speak Irish and a small minority cannot accept this decision and assume that the the majority wake up every morning with a secret desire to speak Irish.

del_c wrote: »

It influences today how we speak english and a central part of our identity.

Give examples?

del_c wrote: »

I am always surprised at the level of anti-irishness

I have never seen any anti-Irishness in these debates, just a request that the Irish language enthusiasts stick to the facts. Unfortunately, the Irish lobby plays the 'anti-Irish' card every time uncomfortable truths are expressed. How can an English-speaking Irish person be 'anti-Irish'?

del_c wrote: »

It's just a pity people are so inhibited about using the language,

Inhibited? nobody is stopping them. They just don't want to. Get over it and go enjoy a 'Cúpla Focal' with your Irish-speaking friends.

del_c

The Corinthian wrote: »

Are you discussing a language or a political cause?


Crusades and Jihads, Soviet Five Year Plans, Wars to gain Lebensraum, Cultural revolutions, Inquisitions and witch-burnings, revolutions, terrors and restorations - all had a price that was ignored because the principle was too important. Even art - Nero thought the burning of Rome an acceptable price to pay for the possibility to rebuild it afresh.

As you have brilliantly demonstrated, you can't discuss the Irish language, or Irish society within a political vacuum. The fact that we currently speak English and we were occupied by England until 90 years ago, is very much relevant to the current status and position of the Irish language within modern society....and this is not an effort to bring politics or republican doctrine into it, it is simply a recognition that the number of full time Irish speakers was reduced from (maybe?) 2million to 250,000 during the course of the 19th century, so this is very relevant to a modern day discussion of the language.

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

The fact that we currently speak English and we were occupied by England until 90 years ago, is very much relevant to the current status and position of the Irish language within modern society

Occupied? Nobody overthrew the Irish government because before the English arrived there was no government. Irish civilisation had failed, that's why Ireland was such a push-over. Ireland eventually became part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This was the first modern, organised government of Ireland which introduced a national law and order, currency, taxation, roads, water, sanitation, rail travel, and modern ports.

During this time, and before the Act of Union, Ireland had a significant indigenous English-speaking population (which you won't acknowledge) who never spoke Irish and also an Irish-speaking population who gradually adopted English as their first language. The modern Irish are descendants of both ethnicities.

del_c wrote: »

the number of full time Irish speakers was reduced from (maybe?) 2million to 250,000 during the course of the 19th century, so this is very relevant a modern day discussion of the language.

Was reduced? you make it sound like ethnic cleansing. Irish speaking reduced itself because a language cannot survive the demise of its supporting culture and society. The ancient ways are no more. The Irish people learned that to survive they needed a more widely-spoken language that would open up economic opportunities. They ditched their former language.

You're ignoring the elephant in the room: All Irish people now speak English and all but a handful have any intention or desire to use Irish in their everyday life. To do so would be anachronistic. A nice hobby or cultural accomplishment, just like an Italian reverting to Latin, but not worth spending large sums of tax money on.

del_c wrote: »

Hiberno-English is heavily influenced by Gaeilge, that is a fairly basic fact.

Give examples?

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It was the language of many but not all of the people of Ireland and I don't think the 19th century is relatively recent. .

Well irish was the major language spoken on this island from about 400AD until around 1850, it has declined for 150 years...after all my grandfather's grandfather spoke Gaeilge. That is recent in historical terms. After all Hebrew was reinvented and is now the primary language of Israel having


Give examples? (how we speak english and a central part of our identity)
Hiberno-English is heavily influenced by Gaeilge, that is a fairly basic fact.



I have never seen any anti-Irishness in these debates, just a request that the Irish language enthusiasts stick to the facts.
Unfortunately, the Irish lobby plays the 'anti-Irish' card every time uncomfortable truths are expressed. How can an English-speaking Irish person be 'anti-Irish'?

// Maybe crossed lines on this one...I meant hostility to the language, though the articles which kicked off this thread makes a good case for anti Irish language being equivalent to a suppressed shame at being irish; don't absolutely buy it myself though.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Inhibited? nobody is stopping them. They just don't want to. Get over it and go enjoy a 'Cúpla Focal' with your Irish-speaking friends.

I don't know if you've learnt a second langauge to any kind of a level, but using a language you are not proficient in is an awkward feeling. Most Irish people would understand you if you went into a shop and ask for a nuachtáin or a buidéal bainne, but very few people get over this hurdle and actually do it...a part of this is because they are afraid of being sneered at, but another factor is basic shyness and inhibition when you know you can cruise along and use english.

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Give examples?

Hiberno English is well covered here...as are its roots in irish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-English

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Occupied? Nobody overthrew the Irish government because before the English arrived there was no government. Irish civilisation had failed, that's why Ireland was such a push-over. Ireland eventually became part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This was the first modern, organised government of Ireland which introduced a national law and order, currency, taxation, roads, water, sanitation, rail travel, and modern ports.

Don't really know where to start with this...Irish civilisation had failed????
Well, in summary, Ireland, a smallish country which was colonised to varying degrees from 1200 onwards, it found itself isolated on the fringe of europe on the wrong side of a continental religous divide and picked the wrong side in a couple of internal political disputes around the government of england, which led to its Gaelic speaking peoples' (which included many which had settled from england) being dispossessed....

Somewhat drastic then to claim Irish society had failed...though the fact that you have said this, would leave you open to accusations of being ashamed of your irish identity yourself....which is exactly why the author of the articles would say you are hostile to irish use in the first place....squaring the circle neatly.


What did the brits ever for for us ;- ) apart from national law and order, currency, taxation, roads, water, sanitation, rail travel, and modern ports.

As these were features of moderisation all across europe, it is a bit of a stretch to claim that getting these benefits made dropping our native culture and languages somehow necessary, and that they only would have come to us being bequethed by our colonial benefactor....we did manage to build roads before and after, after all.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Was reduced? you make it sound like ethnic cleansing. Irish speaking reduced itself because a language cannot survive the demise of its supporting culture and society. The ancient ways are no more. The Irish people learned that to survive they needed a more widely-spoken language that would open up economic opportunities. They ditched their former language.

I'd like to steer the argument away from the republican angle if I can...so I don't want to claim that it was ethnic cleansing.


This happened in no other country in Europe...the Danes never ditched danish and spoke German, though it would have opened up economic opportunities for them; How did Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Romanian all survive while being colonised by German speaking Empires?

It happened here because we felt beaten and demoralised. We've rolled back many of these setbacks since then in many fields and have a lot to be proud of, so would there be not logically some source of pride in rolling back the loss of the language?

I happen to believe there would, and that it is worth spending money on.

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

Hiberno English is well covered here...as are its roots in irish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-English

That's no more remarkable than any regional variation of English spoken in various parts of the United Kingdom or its former colonies.

del_c wrote: »

Well, in summary, Ireland, a smallish country which was colonised to varying degrees from 1200 onwards, it found itself isolated on the fringe of europe on the wrong side of a continental religous divide and picked the wrong side in a couple of internal political disputes around the government of england, which led to its Gaelic speaking peoples' (which included many which had settled from england) being dispossessed....
Somewhat drastic then to claim Irish society had failed...

Due to the reasons you've given above, Irish society/civilisation as defined by the way of life prior to the invasions no longer exists. What remains is a homgenised, re-invented language and some really good music.

del_c wrote: »

though the fact that you have said this, would leave you open to accusations of being ashamed of your irish identity yourself....

I'm quite comfortable with being an English-speaking person who lives in Ireland, descended from generations of English and Irish speakers. You seem to want to make me feel ashamed of not conforming to your particular vision of 'Irishness', which I suspect is based on a rejection of the English cultural heritage which is an inextricable part of Irishness.

del_c wrote: »

the Danes never ditched danish and spoke German, though it would have opened up economic opportunities for them; How did Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Romanian all survive while being colonised by German speaking Empires?

Perhaps their form of civilisation was stronger than the Irish one? They did not give up their languages, Irish people did. It's history and cannot be changed. Hebrew survived as an integral part of a religion and because of the strength of Jewish civilisation.

You need to stop blaming 'The English' for the massive decline in numbers speaking Irish.

Enkidu

deise go deo wrote: »

The gaelthacts are weaker than they once were, I'm not disputing that, but that is not the only indicator for the health of the language, while the gaelthachts have been and may still be in decline, the gaelscoil movement is going from strength to strength.

However the gaeltachts are the last remaining component of natively spoken Irish. If they die, all we have left is learners and it is possible that the language will lose a lot of its sounds, as they will be replaced by the nearest English equivalent. It's also a strong possibility that the grammar could be massively altered since there would be no spoken standard to check it against. I would fear that the Gaeltachts' death might lead Irish to become some sort of pidgin.

Lantus

It's not a dead language but it's certianly very expensive with all the additional printing and translations required all throughout government and all those leaflets.

All language changes and evolves and today english is the spoken word of business and general conversation.

Even if we forced children to speak it till they were 16 at school they would all just use English as to co-exist and thrive in the world we rely on english in business and life to effectively communicate.

We don't want to ens up like the welsh who speak perfecly good english and then speak welsh when a non welsh person comes in the room. rude and insular and does them no favours.

I don't believe we should support financially a language that isn't spoken by the masses. In a time when people are dying on trolleys there are better things to worry about.

Enkidu

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Occupied? Nobody overthrew the Irish government because before the English arrived there was no government. Irish civilisation had failed, that's why Ireland was such a push-over. Ireland eventually became part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This was the first modern, organised government of Ireland which introduced a national law and order, currency, taxation, roads, water, sanitation, rail travel, and modern ports.

cyclopath2001, this may not be directly related to the thread but this is very inaccurate. There was no government covering the whole island, certainly, but there were laws and rules. England at the time didn't really have a government in the sense you are suggesting either and was often ruled locally by an aristocracy in the old Norman fashion just like Ireland. Also the country wasn't a push over. Elizabeth I's government was almost brought to bankruptcy in its war with the Ulster clans. When the war was over the countries has the same government. This government evolved over the next two centuries into the type you discuss.

More accurately, two Insular nations had a war with one eventually seizing control of the other. Eventually that combined nation became a modern one. However in no sense can you say Irish society had failed, thus was a push over and England brought over a modern government.

Not only is that unfair on Ireland, describing it as some lawless place which had failed (how does a society fail?), it is also unfair on England painting what was simply another medieval war, which they happened to win, as some sort of imperialist conquest bringing order to the savages.

Enkidu

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

What remains is a homgenised, re-invented language

How is the language re-invented and homogenised? This is a claim I see a lot.

The Corinthian

del_c wrote: »

As you have brilliantly demonstrated, you can't discuss the Irish language, or Irish society within a political vacuum.

Only because you raised it, not I.

The fact that we currently speak English and we were occupied by England until 90 years ago, is very much relevant to the current status and position of the Irish language within modern society....and this is not an effort to bring politics or republican doctrine into it, it is simply a recognition that the number of full time Irish speakers was reduced from (maybe?) 2million to 250,000 during the course of the 19th century, so this is very relevant to a modern day discussion of the language.

This is one of the principle problems with the language today, in that it has been hijacked by a vocal and hyper-nationalistic minority. For you, the politics and the language are forever linked, and this is not only a turn-off for any Irishman who rejects this now senile doctrine of Anglophobia, but also regrettably puts the language on a pedestal, beyond criticism or change.

daithicarr

The Corinthian wrote: »

This is one of the principle problems with the language today, in that it has been hijacked by a vocal and hyper-nationalistic minority. For you, the politics and the language are forever linked, and this is not only a turn-off for any Irishman who rejects this now senile doctrine of Anglophobia, but also regrettably puts the language on a pedestal, beyond criticism or change.

Are you suggesting that people who support the irish language are all hyper nationalistic? I think with a little bit of research you will find that most irish language supporters are not hyper nationalistic or anglophobic. nor do they put it on a pedestal where it is beyond criticism or change. granted there is a small minority of irish language enthusiast who may fit this bill but 99% of the ones i know do not. equally there is a small minority of those who seem to damn the language and the culture around it at any given chance. the use of emotive terms like Irish is a dead language or we should speak it because its our patriotic duty do nothing to help a rational debate on language policy, there is no point when both opposite camps will de rail any meaningful debate with the same old rhetoric over and over again

The Corinthian

daithicarr wrote: »

Are you suggesting that people who support the irish language are all hyper nationalistic?

No, but I think that del_c has certainly demonstrated that some are. That any criticism of the language is often met with suggestions of lack of patriotism is another tell-tale sign of the presence of this in many cases.

granted there is a small minority of irish language enthusiast who may fit this bill but 99% of the ones i know do not.

Well that 99% need to make this known a bit more, because it certainly seems that the 1% have stolen the stage from them.

There is unfortunately a popular association between hyper-nationalism (of the 19th century Gaelic revival variety) and the language, and this is a turn off for many who view such people as ideological troglodytes still standing at the crossroads waiting for De Valera's comely slappers to turn up.

They're not - they're drinking vodka's and Red Bulls on Ios.

equally there is a small minority of those who seem to damn the language and the culture around it at any given chance.

I agree. I can understand where it's come from (resentment at obligatory Irish in schools and certain jobs, not to mention the savage waste of money that often occurs in the name of Irish), but it is just as emotional and irrational an attitude as the other extreme.

the use of emotive terms like Irish is a dead language or we should speak it because its our patriotic duty do nothing to help a rational debate on language policy, there is no point when both opposite camps will de rail any meaningful debate with the same old rhetoric over and over again

Completely agree - but as I pointed out to del_c, I was not the one who introduced said rhetoric, he was.

diarmy

I'm sad to say that the Irish language is indeed dead. As someone who was born into it, raised and educated all the way to leaving certificate level in Irish, I know the language is dead and it's dead for many different reasons.

Mostly it's dead because of the proliferation of the English language. But I think the education system used to teach Irish here is mainly whats at stake here. For all my young adult life, I ended up hating the language. I could speak it fluently but kept being told that I had bad grammar. 'Tuiseal Ginideach' is what finished me on learning it. And I went off to a boarding school for my final few years education and spent that wasting away at the back of the class because the standard of Irish teaching to non-Gaeltacht children was the equivalent to primary school Irish for kids in the Gaeltacht - I was bored.

Since then I've come to love the language. I love its no-bull**** aspect. It doesn't have any really bad swear words. There's no room to waffle and it is genuinely a beautiful language. However it has be decimated by those hip new young things (i'm 26 btw) in the media.

I think that the biggest reason for the turn against Irish is that people are now speaking Iringlish. This evil language dreamed up by media types who were born into silver-spooned D4'ness. Words like 'fónáil' instead of 'ghlaoigh' and 'go fóilleach' (which isn't actually a word people!). The main culprits of this surprisingly are the people in youth TV at TG4 and people like Barbara McDonagh (I won't give her the satisfaction of her name in Irish because of what she does to the language every night) on i102-104 in Galway.

I recently went to the cinema in Galway and sat behind 5 people who were clearly into the whole 'Irish' thing because they spent the entire pre-film time talking to eachother in this broken, stupid, so-called 'hip' flavour of the language. At one point they chuckled in bad grammar about how it was so great that no-one could understand them. I corrected them on this point (in Irish) and they promptly shut up. This kind of **** sickens my hole. It's like French people learning Italian American slang and speaking it in their own country with French accents thinking that's what English is.

Basically this language is for all intents and purposes is dead. There's no way back. It's begun its decline by becoming the language of the rich and lazy. Hippies and crusties are all that remain really, apart from a few late-comers on the airwaves. In vain attempts to get good-looking people to host kids TV programmes on TG4, they've put the language at stake and glossed over the D4 accents for the sake of chiseled abs on a tween.

If people are serious about not letting it die, here's what we need to do:

- Immediately stop the scourge of people mis-using the language. Words like 'fóilleach' have got to be stopped.
- Remove all the people who genuinely cannot speak Irish from media and television and re-educate them
- All government business including Dáil and Seanad sittings to be carried out in Irish. No english translations available. Media have to do that themselves. This is a top-down thing, which might weed out some of the idiots who can't speak Irish and are just gob****es.
- Re-introduce the mandatory Irish test for entrance to the Gardai
- Make it mandatory that all Civil and Public Servants must pass an Irish exam (written, verbal and aural) every year.
- Irish should be the first official language and only language used in any state communications
- Increase the availability of the 'Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge' to every single person on this island capable of passing it
- Abolish the 'Gaeltacht' areas and cease all funding for them. Divert funds to any part of the island showing an interest in the language, but no designated Irish-speaking places should be marked.

If that all sounds a bit harsh, think of what the English did in their colonies. I think if we're serious about keeping this language alive, then the death of the next two generations will see the language die too unless we take drastic action. I believe that the functions of the state should be carried out entirely in Irish. If you're already in there and you can't speak or understand it, I'd give you 6months to learn or get fired and work somewhere else.

Harsh but necessary.

I'll be at the funeral anyway.

P. Breathnach

Enkidu wrote: »

However the gaeltachts are the last remaining component of natively spoken Irish. If they die, all we have left is learners and it is possible that the language will lose a lot of its sounds, as they will be replaced by the nearest English equivalent. It's also a strong possibility that the grammar could be massively altered since there would be no spoken standard to check it against. I would fear that the Gaeltachts' death might lead Irish to become some sort of pidgin.

These I judge to be fair points, and I think they revolve around the idea of authenticity. Without the legitimation of the language and its concomitants being passed through the generations, it would become no more than an interesting curio from the past. It is very likely that, as Endidu suggests, it would be mediated by other language influences, particularly English, and progressively become more and more distorted.

To my mind, the loss would not merely be the language, but of the mindset that shaped it and is shaped by it.

diarmy

as if to prove my earlier point, as I review the latest comment on this thread I noticed the advertisement attached.

TG4 are advertising in English for Irish programmes subtitled in English. Who wins here? Most of the ads on TG4 are in English, and if there are English subtitles, it's likely most who can't speak or understand the language will watch and read the subtitles. And anyone with Irish will probably read them too because it'll be narrated by someone with 'book Irish' which is indecipherable for anyone who can natively speak it.

This just proves my point. TG4 which started with such great hope, has become a farce of an Irish-language television station. From their 'youth-tv' right up to the advertising of documentaries, this is a joke and should be shut down or re-structured.

nuac

1. Diarmy - new words evolve all the time in all living languages. Live with it. The purists and grammar police have discouraged many from using Irish - they should be ignored.

2. I was educated in Galway fadó fadó through Irish. Native speakers had scant regard for the niceties of grammar in book Irish. Still nice to hear Irish spoken in Galway.

3. I presume you are joking re all the compulsion you list - some of it tried already and failed.

4. I do hope Irish lives on especially outside the ranks of those who in one way or other are paid to use it. It is part of our culture, and is a language of ancient lineage.

5. Suggest we revive the Fáinne or similar sign to show to like minded people that one is interested in speaking Irish.