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Is Irish a dead language?
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I don't quite agree that the language is dead myself, although I am quite aware that it's not in as healthy a state as some claim. However, as to some of your points:
Undemocratic, I'm afraid. Like it or not the principle language of Ireland is English and so attempting to impose Irish on a population that has little or no Irish in this manner will be received with open hostility.- All government business including Dáil and Seanad sittings to be carried out in Irish. No english translations available. Media have to do that themselves. This is a top-down thing, which might weed out some of the idiots who can't speak Irish and are just gob****es.
I do think that the promotion of Irish is carried out on a tightrope. A majority of people in Ireland still maintain a broadly positive view where it comes to it's promotion. And by broadly, I mean limited - take a few Euro out of their pockets to fund this promotion, or force their kids to learn it and they'll probably go with the flow. Impose draconian measures against them directly and you'll be told where to stick it.
To what end? As with your previous suggestion, compulsory Irish in itself has proven to be a moribund policy. It creates an imposition to not even speak the language, but to pass an exam, in something that is not actually used. Moreover, it is largely this imposition that has engendered so much hostility towards the language that exists today. As such, it would cause more harm than good.- Re-introduce the mandatory Irish test for entrance to the Gardai
- Make it mandatory that all Civil and Public Servants must pass an Irish exam (written, verbal and aural) every year.
Unconstitutional, and again it would result in a more negative reaction than positive.- Irish should be the first official language and only language used in any state communications
While I see where you're coming from, this could replace an existing Gaelgore gravy train with a new Gaelgore gravy train, if you're not careful.- Increase the availability of the 'Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge' to every single person on this island capable of passing it
- Abolish the 'Gaeltacht' areas and cease all funding for them. Divert funds to any part of the island showing an interest in the language, but no designated Irish-speaking places should be marked.
I would also be interested in knowing what 'correct' Irish is? We've heard arguments on how local dialects should be protected, so are you suggesting some form of standardization?0 -
1. Diarmy - new words evolve all the time in all living languages. Live with it. The purists and grammar police have discouraged many from using Irish - they should be ignored.
Words are added, but making stupid extensions to existing words is pointless and degrading to the language.. I was educated in Galway fadó fadó through Irish. Native speakers had scant regard for the niceties of grammar in book Irish. Still nice to hear Irish spoken in Galway.
Irish speaking in Galway exists only from Spiddal westward. Barna (or G4 as it's now known) is totally Anglicized at this stage, and despite my best efforts on a daily basis, I still get people looking at me oddly when I say 'Gura' míle' or 'Slán'.3. I presume you are joking re all the compulsion you list - some of it tried already and failed.
No I'm not joking about it actually. If at first you don't succeed, try try again. That bul**** argument people make about we must try new things to revive the language is total crap. Irish needs some legal backing and forcing those in the political classes and civil & public servants (who can well afford a little social compliance in exchange for keeping their secure jobs!) is one way of rounding up the language. I don't care if it pisses people off - working for the state is a devotion not a right or privilege.4. I do hope Irish lives on especially outside the ranks of those who in one way or other are paid to use it. It is part of our culture, and is a language of ancient lineage.
I agree. However, it seems from where I'm standing that only the 65+ agegroup speak it when Raidió na Gaeltachta is off, and those paid to use it usually don't do a very good job of it. (I'm talking about Comharchumainn and that hideous invention: Údarás5. Suggest we revive the Fáinne or similar sign to show to like minded people that one is interested in speaking Irish.
The Fáinne is an example of the elitist status of the language. That lost its prominence when people like Trevor Sargent started wearing it. "Oh look at me, I have a 'cúpla focal'
Bottom line: Irish needs to be enforced on the Civil & Public Servants who provide the so called 'necessary day-to-day' services. Then there's a use for the language. And so it will grow. There will be resentment, but the most important thing is that people cannot say 'sure it's useless'0 -
Mostly it's dead because of the proliferation of the English language. But I think the education system used to teach Irish here is mainly whats at stake here. For all my young adult life, I ended up hating the language. I could speak it fluently but kept being told that I had bad grammar. 'Tuiseal Ginideach' is what finished me on learning it. And I went off to a boarding school for my final few years education and spent that wasting away at the back of the class because the standard of Irish teaching to non-Gaeltacht children was the equivalent to primary school Irish for kids in the Gaeltacht - I was bored. .
Different levels of Irish have been suggested , L1 and L2, L1 for native or near native proficiency. The government are against the idea of L1, not sure why but it could have some merit
As i under stand you were discouraged from Irish because you were told you had bad Grammar and then told off some other irish speakers and discouraged them for their bad grammar. its this sort of thing which puts people off speaking it, are they not allowed speak it till they are fluent in it? if so they will never be able to become fluent without first speaking it (despite what the department of education seems to think). I would never dream of telling a non native english speaker off for not getting it correct at the beginning, just help them along.
I think that the biggest reason for the turn against Irish is that people are now speaking Iringlish. This evil language dreamed up by media types who were born into silver-spooned D4'ness. Words like 'fónáil' instead of 'ghlaoigh' and 'go fóilleach' (which isn't actually a word people!). The main culprits of this surprisingly are the people in youth TV at TG4 and people like Barbara McDonagh (I won't give her the satisfaction of her name in Irish because of what she does to the language every night) on i102-104 in Galway.
I recently went to the cinema in Galway and sat behind 5 people who were clearly into the whole 'Irish' thing because they spent the entire pre-film time talking to eachother in this broken, stupid, so-called 'hip' flavour of the language. At one point they chuckled in bad grammar about how it was so great that no-one could understand them. I corrected them on this point (in Irish) and they promptly shut up. This kind of **** sickens my hole. It's like French people learning Italian American slang and speaking it in their own country with French accents thinking that's what English is.
People should be encouraged to speak and slowly improve. not told to speak perfectly or keep quiet.
I do agree with you on the media however, im not a native speaker, im just learning, but i still wince when i hear the level of Irish on radio na life etc, i dont mind if the guests coming on dont have perfect Irish, but the presenters should definitely be more capable. I wouldn't listen to a radio show much if the presenters were always speaking a bad pidgin english.
as for your ideas for reinvigorating the language, most of those empty gestures of compulsion people who don't want to use the language have been tried and failed in the past. effort and resources would be much better spent on helping those who do want to retain and learn it etc.0 -
Words are added, but making stupid extensions to existing words is pointless and degrading to the language.
And who is to decide what constitutes a stupid extension to an existing word? Such things (extensions to existing words that some people adjudge stupid) also happen in English -- for example "commentate".
A language is owned by the community of people who speak it, not by vocabulary committees such as An Coiste Téarmaíochta or the language departments of academic institutions. I would hold that fón is a better term than guthán, and am quite comfortable with the derived verb fónáil. What is your authority for declaring that it is wrong?...
The Fáinne is an example of the elitist status of the language. That lost its prominence when people like Trevor Sargent started wearing it. "Oh look at me, I have a 'cúpla focal'
That's a cheap shot, and is quite unfair to Trevor Sargent, whose Irish is quite good enough to hold a proper conversation.Bottom line: Irish needs to be enforced on the Civil & Public Servants who provide the so called 'necessary day-to-day' services. Then there's a use for the language. And so it will grow. There will be resentment, but the most important thing is that people cannot say 'sure it's useless'
I joined the public service when Irish was a requirement, and it was no problem for me. I found myself in a unit of about 50 people, all of whom nominally had sufficient Irish to work in that language, yet all correspondence in Irish landed on my desk. Let's not return to that kind of nonsense, which achieves nothing useful and engenders hostility.
I would favour a scheme that tried to ensure that there were enough people with proper language competence seeded through the public service in order to enable those who wished to transact official business through Irish to do so.0 -
It failed to resist the more powerful invader and the original Irish civilisation/society that people are so nostalgic about, no longer exists. That is, by any definition, a failure. That is why original Irish is no longer spoken by a huge majority of the Irish population, they've adopted a different culture, English being an integral part of it.However in no sense can you say Irish society had failed,
The current version of the language has been 'standardised' from various dialects into 'An Caighdeán Oifigiúil' which is quite different to the Irish, spoken by some of our ancestors. The language itself is no longer written in its original Ogham form, nor in the medeavil Uncial script.How is the language re-invented and homogenised? This is a claim I see a lot.
So, it's quite false to claim that the current version of Irish is an integral part of our identity. Learn it, if you like, but it does not make you any more Irish than the majority of us.0 -
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This doesn't work with your original post. You said Irish society had failed and that is why it was a pushover when the war with England began. This is false. If you are now saying it is a failure because of losing the war, fair enough, but it's not what you originally said.cyclopath2001 wrote: »It failed to resist the more powerful invader and the original Irish civilisation/society that people are so nostalgic about, no longer exists. That is, by any definition, a failure.
An Caighdeán Oifigiúl is an official written standard. It's not "the current version of the language", it's the current literary register of the language. The spoken dialects still exist. Remember Irish has had literary registers and everyday dialects side-by-side for most of its history. The Bards for instance used Classical/Bardic Irish which they spoke, sang and wrote in. This was also a standardisation which was created from several dialects. Still, some of the greatest works of literature produced here were written in this standard.cyclopath2001 wrote: »The current version of the language has been 'standardised' from various dialects into 'An Caighdeán Oifigiúil'
English is no different. Caxton and those after him created a standard version of English, just like "An Caighdeán Oifigiúil".
Not really, learning Modern Irish allows you to read stuff from the 17th century. Unless you're talking about Old Irish, but that's no different from Modern English speakers not being able to understand Anglo-Saxon.which is quite different to the Irish, spoken by some of our ancestors.
So? English, French,e.t.c. are no longer written in their original scripts. English for instance is no longer written in Futhorc.The language itself is no longer written in its original Ogham form, nor in the medeavil Uncial script.
Why do you say this? Did I claim it made one more Irish?Learn it, if you like, but it does not make you any more Irish than the majority of us.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »
The current version of the language has been 'standardised' from various dialects into 'An Caighdeán Oifigiúil' which is quite different to the Irish, spoken by some of our ancestors. The language itself is no longer written in its original Ogham form, nor in the medeavil Uncial script.
Its called modernization, It happens in every living language. Is English a re-invented and homogenized language too? It is quite different to what Shakespear would have known.So, it's quite false to claim that the current version of Irish is an integral part of our identity. Learn it, if you like, but it does not make you any more Irish than the majority of us.
Modern Irish is part of the modern Irish Identity. Would you at least concede that Irish is more 'Irish' than English?0 -
Dead as a dodo.
Time for its burial once and for all0 -
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(Hiberno)English is the new Irish. It's the language spoken by the majority of this country. Irish was part of a way of life that no longer exists. Reviving the language without also reviving the associated customs and society is like barefoot Irish dancing on concrete floors, without music.deise go deo wrote: »Its called modernization, It happens in every living language. Is English a re-invented and homogenized language too? It is quite different to what Shakespear would have known.
It's certainly part of the cultural landscape but it's far from being at the core of our cultural identify as so few people bother to speak it. This is a fact that constantly escapes Irish language enthusiasts.deise go deo wrote: »Modern Irish is part of the modern Irish Identity. Would you at least concede that Irish is more 'Irish' than English?
As to modern Irish being 'more Irish' than English, - since the majority of the population speak English, a typical monoglot English speaking Irish person is more typically representative of Irishness than a minority polyglot Irish speaker.
Enjoy your hobby by all means, but pay for it yourself?0 -
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The Corinthian wrote: »This is one of the principle problems with the language today, in that it has been hijacked by a vocal and hyper-nationalistic minority.
A bit out of order there chief, at no point did I "blame" England for our loss of Irish. What I would say is that our experience of colonialisation under England combined with what happened in the 19th century has shaped much of the way Gaeilge is perceived today. Labelling me a hpyernationalist (which is not true) would imply I was criticising a deliberate attempt at a kind of ethnic cleansing. In fact I simply wanted to reflect that fact that Irish was ditched because it was a) Gaelic speakers who bore the brunt of the plantations and the consequent emigration and poverty which followed and b) it was perceived as being backward and a language of failure (which begs the question why people thought this; maybe it is at least indirectly linked to a?) .... is that statement hyper-nationalist?
As a corollary to this, one would expect that a change in Irish people's perception of themselves and their language would change, when connotations of Irishness in general became more positive, and irish self esteem and confidence levels increased. This explains the explosion in popularity of Gaelscoileanna in the 90s, particularly among elites. As most innovation in society is driven by elites, then I would expect this to increase the appettite for Irish in the medium-term....though the events of the last 2 years have "startled the earwigs" somewhat again.
Either way, I think general funding levels for Gaelic are quite safe as Irish political elites, whatever their other, numerous limitations, generally have good levels of Irish. Simply speaking Irish and having learned it will give naturally dispose you positively toward it. It would be nice to get the most out of this time and effort, though as with all state run schemes, waste is inevitable.0 -
Do any of the pro-Gaeilge people have any insight into the growth of Welsh in the last 20 years again: are there any relevant lessons for reencouraging the widespread use of Irish in daily life here?0
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »(Hiberno)English is the new Irish. It's the language spoken by the majority of this country. Irish was part of a way of life that no longer exists. Reviving the language without also reviving the associated customs and society is like barefoot Irish dancing on concrete floors, without music.
What?, Is Irish not part of the way of life in the Gaelthachts?
The Society and Customs of Shakespears time have disappeared too, You make claims about Irish that apply to English in the same way yet they are somehow a point against Irish only.
Barefoot Irish dancing on concrete floors, without music? Where did you pull that from? Honestly the levels you will go to in your quest do denounce Irish is funny.:rolleyes:It's certainly part of the cultural landscape but it's far from being at the core of our cultural identify as so few people bother to speak it. This is a fact that constantly escapes Irish language enthusiasts.
And that the majority of people in this country are well disposed twords the language is a fact that escapes you and others who are actively biased against the Language.As to modern Irish being 'more Irish' than English, - since the majority of the population speak English, a typical monoglot English speaking Irish person is more typically representative of Irishness than a minority polyglot Irish speaker.
To be honest I was Expecting this, As far as I am concerned you are in a fairly small minority in your opinion.
Irish is more 'Irish' Than English. Think about it, the clue is in the name.;)Enjoy your hobby by all means, but pay for it yourself?
I suppose artists shouldent get tax breaks,
If you dont use it you shouldent have to pay for it right, I suppose its unfair that part of what I have payed in tax went twords the Luas as I never use it.0 -
But not among the majority population of this country.deise go deo wrote: »What?, Is Irish not part of the way of life in the Gaelthachts?
And so has the way they spoke then.deise go deo wrote: »The Society and Customs of Shakespears time have disappeared too,
Explain how I've denounced Irish in that comparison? I have tried to illustrate the absurdity of reviving a language detached from its cultural context.deise go deo wrote: »Barefoot Irish dancing on concrete floors, without music? Where did you pull that from? Honestly the levels you will go to in your quest do denounce Irish is funny.:rolleyes:
The majority of this country are so well disposed towards Irish that they don't want to use it. I have no bias against Irish, I just do not speak it.deise go deo wrote: »And that the majority of people in this country are well disposed twords the language is a fact that escapes you and others who are actively biased against the Language.
Do the math, get in touch with reality.deise go deo wrote: »Irish is more 'Irish' Than English. Think about it, the clue is in the name.;)
We can no longer afford those tax breaks. A small amount of lottery money might be justified, if the recipients can show that it will be properly spent.deise go deo wrote: »I suppose artists shouldent get tax breaks,
If you dont use it you shouldent have to pay for it right,0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »But not among the majority population of this country.
And so has the way they spoke then.
That is nonsense. The English language has developed and evolved from this time, as all languages do. To say the way they spoke then has disappeared is false. Why is it we can still read it with understanding then, if it has disappeared?
/QUOTE]cyclopath2001 wrote: »Explain how I've denounced Irish in that comparison? I have tried to illustrate the absurdity of reviving a language detached from its cultural context. /QUOTE]
But Irish has been spoken from then until now, so there is very much a modern context for the speaking of Irish, within a modern Irish cultural context. There are Irish words for divorce, abortion, mobile phone, computer and bank guarantee. It would surprise me if even 4 of the 20 or so Irish words for "field" are regularly used today.cyclopath2001 wrote: »The majority of this country are so well disposed towards Irish that they don't want to use it. I have no bias against Irish, I just do not speak it.
Do the math, get in touch with reality.
Ah well then if you have no bias against Irish, then you would surely have no problem with Irish government spending taxpayers money, a large amount of which is contrbuted by Irish-speaking, or at least Irish-language supporting taxpayers money.
Do the math? Well over half our polticians speak a good conversational level of Irish and would therefore be positively supportive of regeneration efforts. The politicians are elected by the people to spend taxes as they see fit, therefore Irish will and should be supported further. Anything else would be undemocratic.
A matter for a different thread really, so the fact that I disagree is a moot point.cyclopath2001 wrote: »We can no longer afford those tax breaks.
"Irish is more 'Irish' Than English?"
Playing Irish music is a more Irish thing to do than playing any other kind of music - Agreed?
Playing an Irish game such as hurling is more Irish than playing a sport such as soccer - Agreed?
Speaking Irish is more Irish than speaking English.....this is not true then is it?0 -
Actually, you did:A bit out of order there chief, at no point did I "blame" England for our loss of Irish.The fact that we currently speak English and we were occupied by England until 90 years ago, is very much relevant to the current status and position of the Irish language within modern society....
No, your post title is why I would consider you so, in that it brands anyone who dares criticize the sacred cow status of the language as one "who do not hold a love and respect for their native tongue", a comment made more ridiculous by the fact that English is the native tongue of the vast majority of our country, and has been now for generations.Labelling me a hpyernationalist (which is not true) would imply I was criticising a deliberate attempt at a kind of ethnic cleansing.
It's pointless, more than anything else. We all know why English supplanted Irish, but after 90 years of independence, it would not explain why we have failed abysmally to bring it back.In fact I simply wanted to reflect that fact that Irish was ditched because it was a) Gaelic speakers who bore the brunt of the plantations and the consequent emigration and poverty which followed and b) it was perceived as being backward and a language of failure (which begs the question why people thought this; maybe it is at least indirectly linked to a?) .... is that statement hyper-nationalist?
This attitude that seems to only accept our history up to independence, not to mention the type of language used, is what makes it hyper-nationalist.
What has been positive in Irish society in the last twenty years is that we began to stop relying upon the past. Growing up, the "800 years of oppression" line was a common explanation for why we were an economic basket-case, and it was only when we stopped relying on this that things began to take off.As a corollary to this, one would expect that a change in Irish people's perception of themselves and their language would change, when connotations of Irishness in general became more positive, and irish self esteem and confidence levels.
And as long as we can maintain this forward-looking attitude and avoid returning to the warmth and safety of our traditional victim culture, we'll get out of the present mess.
People keep on talking about this Gaelscoileanna explosion, yet I've seen very little evidence of what this optimism is based on. Certainly one can point to individual cases here and there, but there's really not a lot more to go on. Not saying that the Gaelscoileanna have not been successful, but such claims are largely just conversation, from what I can make out.This explains the explosion in popularity of Gaelscoileanna in the 90s, particularly among elites. As most innovation in society is driven by elites, then I would expect this to increase the appettite for Irish in the medium-term....though the events of the last 2 years have "startled the earwigs" somewhat again.
Politicians are generally more capable, but they only make up a small part of the Irish elites and they are an elite on a short leash - whether the other end is held by an electorate or business community, where support for the language is anything but steadfast.Either way, I think general funding levels for Gaelic are quite safe as Irish political elites, whatever their other, numerous limitations, generally have good levels of Irish.
Indeed, that the obligatory nature of Irish is being eroded, by the Irish political elites would tend to point to a reality where there are limits to their good will towards the language, or their power to exercise that good will.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »People keep on talking about this Gaelscoileanna explosion, yet I've seen very little evidence of what this optimism is based on. Certainly one can point to individual cases here and there, but there's really not a lot more to go on. Not saying that the Gaelscoileanna have not been successful, but such claims are largely just conversation, from what I can make out.
From Gaelscoilleanna.ie:Irish-medium education is one of the fastest growing fields of education in Ireland for over 30 years and GAELSCOILEANNA TEO. are to the forefront in its development. There are approximately 40,000 children receiving education through the medium of Irish outside of the Gaeltacht. The organisation is core funded by Foras na Gaeilge.
The amount of Irish-medium schools in the country that are outside the Gaeltacht are as follows:
Primary: 139 in the 26 Co. + 33 in the 6 Co. = 172 in the 32 Counties.
Post-Primary: 36 in the 26 Co. + 3 in the 6 Co. = 39 in the 32 Counties
http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/assets/lion-paisti-graif3.xls
But I suppose this is not credibal evidence?0 -
So what? Irish education has been saturated with the Irish language for decades, yet once you leave school it becomes little more than a minority interest. This has been one of the greatest failing in the promotion of Irish, so in itself one cannot claim any victory unless you can demonstrate that it's made a difference in the grown-up World.deise go deo wrote: »From Gaelscoilleanna.ie:
Additionally, I would have to question the impact of 40,000 enrolled students would have nationally. There are over 850,000 children in Ireland under the age of 15 alone, making those going to Gaelscoileanna only a tiny percentage.
This is not to say that the Gaelscoileanna will not have any impact or that its growth is not a welcome phenomenon, however I am skeptical, to say the least, whenever I hear that it will somehow make the kind of impact that is being claimed by some.
To me it just sounds like more propaganda about how the great revival is just round the corner. So my criticism, to be clear, is of that and not of the Gaelscoileanna.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »So what? Irish education has been saturated with the Irish language for decades, yet once you leave school it becomes little more than a minority interest.
Yet this would be one of the biggest criticisms of the way Irish is taught in schools; that the pupils are not saturated in it, and that they thus leave school unable to hold a conversation in Irish. Having Irish as the language of the playground must give some grounds for optimism.
This added to a more supportive attitude in the home might push things along.0 -
By a a small number of people. It's now as authentically ancient as Esperanto.But Irish has been spoken from then until now, so there is very much a modern context for the speaking of Irish, within a modern Irish cultural context.
That was all very well during the boom, but not now.Ah well then if you have no bias against Irish, then you would surely have no problem with Irish government spending taxpayers money...
They sure did spend taxes as they saw fit.Do the math? Well over half our polticians speak a good conversational level of Irish and would therefore be positively supportive of regeneration efforts. The politicians are elected by the people to spend taxes as they see fit, therefore Irish will and should be supported further. Anything else would be undemocratic.
Nope, most Irish people speak English, only a few speak Irish."Irish is more 'Irish' Than English?"
Yes, although I think you'll be surprised find major foreign influences in what is considered 'pure' Irish music .Playing Irish music is a more Irish thing to do than playing any other kind of music - Agreed?
Games with balls and sticks are played in many countries. Beating an English worker to death with a hurley - that's Irish.Playing an Irish game such as hurling is more Irish than playing a sport such as soccer - Agreed?
It's not true, because very few Irish people speak Irish. A typical Irish person speaks only English.Speaking Irish is more Irish than speaking English.....this is not true then is it?0 -
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I would have similar thoughts. I have been speaking Irish for a little while now and everybody else who speaks the language is either:The Corinthian wrote: »Additionally, I would have to question the impact of 40,000 enrolled students would have nationally. There are over 850,000 children in Ireland under the age of 15 alone, making those going to Gaelscoileanna only a tiny percentage.
(a) A native speaker.
(b) Somebody who is virtually native, i.e. home language may be English, but lived near an Irish speaking area or grew up with Irish speaking friends.
(c) Somebody who learned it themselves as an adult.
I have never really encountered a student from one of the gaelscoileanna who is willing to speak the language and who can speak it well.0 -
I can understand that you see things like cultural revival as silly, e.t.c. This is a perfectly valid stance, but claims like the above are nonsense. Modern Irish is not like Esperanto in the sense of being invented. Modern Irish is of course not ancient, since it has changed much from Old Irish to the point of being a different language, starting in about the 1200s. However it is absurd to suggest it's a "made-up" Esperanto type language just because it recieved a literary standard in 1950s. If you are going to make this claims, can you show me how the existence of a written standard makes a language made-up and artificial, especially considering that it's something most European languages have.cyclopath2001 wrote: »By a a small number of people. It's now as authentically ancient as Esperanto.0 -
I'll admit that the comparison with Esperanto is not accurate but it does help to put across the point that modern Irish speakers are not sole custodians of ancient golden-age traditions and thus entitled to large chunks of taxpayer funds.Modern Irish is not like Esperanto in the sense of being invented.
Most European languages are spoken by the majority of the population of country or region with which they are affiliated. The same cannot be said of Irish.that it's something most European languages have.
What's the Irish for 'PS3'?0 -
I would have similar thoughts. I have been speaking Irish for a little while now and everybody else who speaks the language is either:
(a) A native speaker.
(b) Somebody who is virtually native, i.e. home language may be English, but lived near an Irish speaking area or grew up with Irish speaking friends.
(c) Somebody who learned it themselves as an adult.
I have never really encountered a student from one of the gaelscoileanna who is willing to speak the language and who can speak it well.
Obviously you know your own experience, and it would be silly for me to gainsay it.
I could, however, give you examples of people who speak Irish well -- often very well -- mainly as a result of being educated in gaelscoileanna. Starting with me. I could also give a few examples of people who have been through gall-scoileanna but who achieved very high levels of proficiency in Irish (typically enriched with experience in coláistí samhraidh).
And yes, I recognise that there are people who have been through gaelscoileanna and their command of Irish might be described as leath-chuíosach.0 -
Fair enough, however it would be more correct to say Modern Irish isn't as old as some pretend, e.t.c. However it is the language of the Bards who composed literature in the Gaelic era. One could say they're not entitled to taxpayer funds regardless, but it is true that they are the speakers of the same language as it existed in the 14th century.cyclopath2001 wrote: »I'll admit that the comparison with Esperanto is not accurate but it does help to put across the point that modern Irish speakers are not sole custodians of ancient golden-age traditions and thus entitled to large chunks of taxpayer funds.
Well it's 'PS3'. However this doesn't relate to my point, I'm not saying Irish is widely spoken or that it has native Celtic derived roots for the playstation. I'm saying that having a written standard created in the 1950s doesn't suddenly prevent it from being the language spoken centuries ago or render it "made-up". It has a written standard like other European languages.cyclopath2001 wrote: »Most European languages are spoken by the majority of the population of country or region with which they are affiliated. The same cannot be said of Irish.
What's the Irish for 'PS3'?0 -
It's probably just limitations in my own experience then, it was honestly something I was curious about since I would have thought they would be the speakers I'd meet the most. Of course this is just the fragmented picture personal experience can leave you with.P. Breathnach wrote: »I could, however, give you examples of people who speak Irish well -- often very well -- mainly as a result of being educated in gaelscoileanna. Starting with me. I could also give a few examples of people who have been through gall-scoileanna but who achieved very high levels of proficiency in Irish (typically enriched with experience in coláistí samhraidh).0 -
It's probably just limitations in my own experience then, it was honestly something I was curious about since I would have thought they would be the speakers I'd meet the most. Of course this is just the fragmented picture personal experience can leave you with.
Some of the more enthusiastic Irish speakers I have met were products of the Gailscoileanna,
Unfortunatly I dident get to go to one so I have to learn Irish the hard way.:(0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »
Additionally, I would have to question the impact of 40,000 enrolled students would have nationally. There are over 850,000 children in Ireland under the age of 15 alone, making those going to Gaelscoileanna only a tiny percentage.
You do realise the point is that the figure has grown by a vast amount in the past two decades, Do you think the figure will not continue to rise?
Is the rise not an indication that people have not given up on Irish?
Yes it is a small percentage, It is also a growing percentage.This is not to say that the Gaelscoileanna will not have any impact or that its growth is not a welcome phenomenon, however I am skeptical, to say the least, whenever I hear that it will somehow make the kind of impact that is being claimed by some.
What Impact is claimed by some? I claimed that it is an indicator of the Increase in Irish useage and standing of Irish.
Is that not what it is? If not, Why?To me it just sounds like more propaganda about how the great revival is just round the corner. So my criticism, to be clear, is of that and not of the Gaelscoileanna.
You asked for Evidence and I gave you some, You are accuseing me of propaganda for posting evidience for my claims, Wheres yours?0 -
I know plenty of people who were educated in gaelscoils in primary and post primary. Although they can speak Irish I know that in school English was the spoken language outside of classrooms, children at that age are practical people and why bother speaking Irish if english is easier? They've all made almost no effort since leaving school to speak Irish obviously anecdotal but I'd be willing to bet they're in the majority.
Obviously Irish is important culturally but as a useful language in daily life it has little relevance. I imagine for many children educated in gaelscoils Irish is similar to the calculus lessons they took in school, nice to know but not very useful.
I would also seriously question the size of the current gaeltachts. I know that there were moves to reassess their size in 2002 as their boundaries have not changed since the 1950s.
If Irish is to have a future it needs to grow organically and not through this state led cultural coercian that exists currently. This will take courage however as I think many enthusiasts fear it will not survive. I think it would in fact grow from it's current state as students would not be so resentful of the language and the minority of interested students would embrace it.0 -
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »What's the Irish for 'PS3'?
The Irish for PS3 is the same as the German for PS3 - PS3....your arguments are starting to deteriorate somewhat....
I see Irish, as a language that was spoken 3 Generations back in my family, therefore it is clearly a part of my heritage and part of my identity..as you regard old Irish cilisation as a failed one, then I can understand why you would want to be hostile toward spending some of your tax money on Irish language encouragement....but there are huge levels of support for continuing this spend (as evidenced by the slight majority of pro posters in this discussion), so it looks like you'll have to live with it a whileen longer.0
This discussion has been closed.
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