Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

I know plenty of people who were educated in gaelscoils in primary and post primary. Although they can speak Irish I know that in school English was the spoken language outside of classrooms, children at that age are practical people and why bother speaking Irish if english is easier? They've all made almost no effort since leaving school to speak Irish obviously anecdotal but I'd be willing to bet they're in the majority.

Did you try to speak Irish with them? The biggest problem with Irish usage after school is the lack of opportunity to do so.

This is like when people say, I went to the gaelthacht and dident hear anyone speaking Irish, Of course you dident, you were speaking English so they did too,

Obviously Irish is important culturally but as a useful language in daily life it has little relevance. I imagine for many children educated in gaelscoils Irish is similar to the calculus lessons they took in school, nice to know but not very useful.

That depends on what you mean by usefull, It certainly can be used as a means of communication, It can be very Important when going for some jobs,
Useful in general, maybe not but to be fair French and German are less relevant to someone living here.

I would also seriously question the size of the current gaeltachts. I know that there were moves to reassess their size in 2002 as their boundaries have not changed since the 1950s.

Well I agree that the gaelthacht that appears on the map is not really reflected in reality.

If Irish is to have a future it needs to grow organically and not through this state led cultural coercian that exists currently. This will take courage however as I think many enthusiasts fear it will not survive. I think it would in fact grow from it's current state as students would not be so resentful of the language and the minority of interested students would embrace it.

So how should Irish be ''grown organicaly''? Do you think the state has any role to play in supporting it?

Alot of people claim students grow up resentful of the language, This has not been my experience however, I have met many people who could not care less about the language, but they dident resent it, I have only met about 3 people who were actually hostile to it.
The vast majority however were at least open to it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

So how should Irish be ''grown organicaly''? Do you think the state has any role to play in supporting it?

Should be just treated like German/French or Spanish. The end result will be more people can and will speak it.

Alot of people claim students grow up resentful of the language, This has not been my experience however, I have met many people who could not care less about the language, but they dident resent it, I have only met about 3 people who were actually hostile to it.
The vast majority however were at least open to it.

My experience is students resent it whilst learning it and for a few years after. Then a few years later they talk about how they'd love to be able to speak it(though very very rarely attempt to do so)

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Did you try to speak Irish with them? The biggest problem with Irish usage after school is the lack of opportunity to do so.

No I never do. Trying to speaking Irish with another fluent English speaker would be very slow and tedious much like trying to speak an unfamiliar foreign language when abroad. It is far easier and more efficient to speak English. I think most of my friends would think I'd suddenly turned into an ultra nationalistic republican with the Queens face on the dart board back home if I started to speak Irish with them. Irish needs to become culturally important once again and not a propaganda tool for crazy republicans.

This is like when people say, I went to the gaelthacht and dident hear anyone speaking Irish, Of course you dident, you were speaking English so they did too,

Well if I go to France I still hear French even if I'm speaking English to my companions.

That depends on what you mean by usefull, It certainly can be used as a means of communication, It can be very Important when going for some jobs,
Useful in general, maybe not but to be fair French and German are less relevant to someone living here.

Yes it can be used as a means of communication but as I've said previously English is a far more efficient and convenient one for the vast majority of people. I agree that French or German aren't particularly useful in Ireland however they have much more relevance when visiting Germany or France unlike Irish which has absolutely no utility abroad.

So how should Irish be ''grown organicaly''? Do you think the state has any role to play in supporting it?

Alot of people claim students grow up resentful of the language, This has not been my experience however, I have met many people who could not care less about the language, but they dident resent it, I have only met about 3 people who were actually hostile to it.
The vast majority however were at least open to it.

Well by grown organically I mean that it shouldn't be forced upon people that don't want to learn it but rather survive on its own merits. I think the state should support it in a fashion similar to the way they support the arts by giving money to successful developmental programs. I don't think people resent the language but rather that they were forced to learn it and conform to the official version of 'Irishness'.

caseyann

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Should be just treated like German/French or Spanish. The end result will be more people can and will speak it.



My experience is students resent it whilst learning it and for a few years after. Then a few years later they talk about how they'd love to be able to speak it(though very very rarely attempt to do so)

Rubbish i took french for 10 years and it never sank in and now can barely remember a sentence.:mad:
Go into a shop where Irish working and caint as gaeilge, you will see effort to reply and delight

dkin

caseyann wrote: »

Rubbish i took french for 10 years and it never sank in and now can barely remember a sentence.:mad:

Well how is this any different from the current situation where people learn Irish for 12 years and can't speak a word of it?

I made an effort to learn French and German as I thought they were useful languages that I could use unlike Irish. Much of my study was self motivated as I knew I had the option of dropping the language if I wanted to unlike Irish which I resented because it was compulsory.

Obviously people like you don't have any interest in French and didn't want to learn it that's fair enough and your loss but I'm sure there are plenty of others such as myself who did have an interest and speak it well.

Why can't the same standards apply to Irish, it's completely unrealistic to expect everyone to speak Irish perfectly when leaving school. I think the resources are better directed at the minority that want to learn and forget the rest who have no interest and stop forcing them to do something they don't want to do purely for cultural reasons. Think of all the resources that were wasted on you over that 10 year period. The exact same situation exists with Irish except on a much larger scale.

Bottle_of_Smoke

caseyann wrote: »

Rubbish i took french for 10 years and it never sank in and now can barely remember a sentence.:mad:
Go into a shop where Irish working and caint as gaeilge, you will see effort to reply and delight

If it is treated the same as German/French/Spanish the people writing the cirriculum will be forced to teach it as a spoken language. Rather than the current elitist system which gives a tiny minority an opportunity to study higher level and condemns the rest to ordinary(which is far too easy) just so they can pretend to themselves that Irish people can study Irish literature in Irish at a competant level.

caseyann

dkin wrote: »

Well how is this any different from the current situation where people learn Irish for 12 years and can't speak a word of it?

I made an effort to learn French and German as I thought they were useful languages that I could use unlike Irish. Much of my study was self motivated as I knew I had the option of dropping the language if I wanted to unlike Irish which I resented because it was compulsory.

Obviously people like you don't have any interest in French and didn't want to learn it that's fair enough and your loss but I'm sure there are plenty of others such as myself who did have an interest and speak it well.

Why can't the same standards apply to Irish, it's completely unrealistic to expect everyone to speak Irish perfectly when leaving school. I think the resources are better directed at the minority that want to learn and forget the rest who have no interest and stop forcing them to do something they don't want to do purely for cultural reasons. Think of all the resources that were wasted on you over that 10 year period. The exact same situation exists with Irish except on a much larger scale.

You do not have to speak it perfectly.
No i loved french class.My french teacher was french so i can do Parisian accent like a pro
And when i hear French i can understand 60% of whats been said.Same as majority of Irish taught kids can understand Irish when spoken to them.What i find annoying is the dialect been changed from school to school.They should have stuck with one dialect of Irish in schools.
You could speak fluent Irish also its all there inside you,just a matter of practice and gaining confidence.
Why was french needed back in the 80's in schools.Should have been Irish learning only.And you choose to do other language do it yourself.
Irish should have precedent over all languages.
I dont see Irish as wasted resources,i see other languages as wasted time and resources.Just curious how many people use French and German in everyday life
Not to mention the fact we have higher proportion of Spanish visiting kids to learn off of.lol

Bottle_of_Smoke

caseyann wrote:

Rubbish i took french for 10 years and it never sank in and now can barely remember a sentence

caseyann wrote: »

And when i hear French i can understand 60% of whats been said.

What the f*ck like? There was only 33minutes between those posts!

caseyann

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

What the f*ck like? There was only 33minutes between those posts!

Understand it doesnt mean i can string a sentence together
relax you didnt find a plot :P

dkin

caseyann wrote: »

You do not have to speak it perfectly.
No i loved french class.My french teacher was french so i can do Parisian accent like a pro
And when i hear French i can understand 60% of whats been said.Same as majority of Irish taught kids can understand Irish when spoken to them.

This is a complete contradiction you just said said "Rubbish i took french for 10 years and it never sank in and now can barely remember a sentence." as an argument as to why Irish should not be taught like French and German and then claimed that the average Irish childs comprehesnion of French and German is similar to their Irish comprehension. From my own personal experience in school I would say the majority of Irish children would not be able to understand spoken Irish nor French or German.

Why was french needed back in the 80's in schools.Should have been Irish learning only.And you choose to do other language do it yourself.

Well French is a major European language, solely learning Irish in school is a very insular and closed minded approach.

i see other languages as wasted time and resources.Just curious how many people use French and German in everyday life

Well maybe the average Irish person has little use for French or German but I can assure you we are the laughing stock of Europe for our terrible ability to learn foreign languages and we are definitely denied access to alternative view points and opinions as a result. Maybe if we had a better knowledge of German or French some of their warnings and opinions regarding the anglo saxon model our economy was based on would have got wider recognition and we might not be in the current financial mess.

It is very difficult for Irish businesses to operate in Europe due to lack of language skill and I think you'll find that multi lingual workers are highly valued in companies such as Facebook, Google and Microsoft, although not as much down at the local spar shop. The same cannot be said of Irish.

dkin

caseyann wrote: »

Understand it doesnt mean i can string a sentence together
relax you didnt find a plot :P

If you can understand 60% of spoken French you shouldn't have a bother stringing a sentence together.

alan85

It's funny that I saw this thread. I've been looking for free Irish classes recently. I really want to speak more Irish. I always say 'Slán' or 'áth mór' when getting off the phone. I think it's a gorgeous language.

As for whether it's dead or not I think it's a pointless arguement. Fact is we'll never know how successful or not it could have been as a functional language because:

1. We were oppressed and stopped from using it and punished for doing so.
2. The international language is not Esparanto, it's English which happens to be what was forced upon us and is convenient in many ways. We use it for our participation in E.U., international business and indeed it creates wealth for us as it's planned that €1.2bn will be created annually by us teaching foreign students.
3. People here are blase and secure in themselves. We have the sea between us and Britain and don't fear an invasion of them as such in terms of culture. We have GAA, dance and music and that sets us apart. In Wales, I think, the revival of their language may have been one to set them apart and have a clear cultural identity.
4. People not having the initiative. I don't see many people here with initiative to work at it and learn it. We're lazy people I think. We don't want to show our pride in it. It remains under the rug and pulled out when we feel comfortable whereas we should be using it to say hello and goodbye and building on that.

These points in no way mean that we shouldn't support the language. Maybe in time it will recover in some meaningful way, I hope!

Does anyone here know where I can get some free Irish lessons? All the ones I have seen are expensive and I can't seem to find anywhere I can afford....

Go 'aibh maith agat!

Bottle_of_Smoke

alan85 wrote: »

These points in no way mean that we shouldn't support the language. Maybe in time it will recover in some meaningful way, I hope!

I would like to see people speaking it more. I will support any sensible measures. However I find the way it is taught and the propping up of the language by the current elitist supporters who control how it is taught to be counter-productive to that goal.

What really *really* shocks me is people who have put in the effort to learn Irish by themselves in later life commonly support the main dogmas of the current educational system even though they learnt Irish in spite of that system, not because of it.

It is like you are seen as less patriotic or a west brit if you criticise the nature of the current education system.

alan85

I would like to see people speaking it more. I will support any sensible measures. However I find the way it is taught and the propping up of the language by the current elitist supporters who control how it is taught to be counter-productive to that goal.

What really *really* shocks me is people who have put in the effort to learn Irish by themselves in later life commonly support the main dogmas of the current educational system even though they learnt Irish in spite of that system, not because of it.

It is like you are seen as less patriotic or a west brit if you criticise the nature of the current education system.

What's the alternative?! You can moan about it or you can focus your energy and try come up with another way...

Personally, I think it should be encouraged in public places. I remember people who could speak Irish used to wear a pin on their lapel to show they did so. I'd love to see that come back. Or public service workers on the front line be encouraged to use greetings in Irish. Build it slowly but surely. As for Irish in school I don't think it's entirely possible to make it as sexy as people would like. Did you ever like maths or physics?! Those required effort... People just want an easy ride...

del_c

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

What really *really* shocks me is people who have put in the effort to learn Irish by themselves in later life commonly support the main dogmas of the current educational system even though they learnt Irish in spite of that system, not because of it.

Maybe it is because those people (myself included) realise that teaching languages is very difficult in a school environment where kids are often surrounded by statements like "Sure it's a useless language anyway" (often from the home, but mainly from peers and the like). As you get older, you get more of an appreciation for it and can apply the discipline needed for learning a language in order that you build a framework of grammar you can use while speaking it. Learning languages is very difficult in a classroom. I left school with atrocious German, though I was reasonably motivated to learn it (unlike Irish which I despised:-( )...after 4 years of university added to this it was not brilliant either; I only really grasped it when I lived in Germany AND worked in an environment in which I was immersed in it.
Having come back to irish now after 20 years, I am amazed how much of the sentence structures, grammar and sounds are right there underneath the surface...maybe the original teaching wasn't so bad after all. There are sounds that I will never be able to produce in German, but nothing in Irish is unpronouncable to me. Speaking it is absolutely key...if kids got a Slán in the morning and and Oíche Mhaith in the evening it would make a huge difference to their attitutes in the classroom, so parents have a responsibility too.
The education system is not perfect, but always blaming it is a bit of a lazy excuse in my view....people are only in school for 13 years, and have the rest of their lives to take it up afterward.

Note: Anybody concerned with the usefulness of Irish, I think can console themselves, that the actual language you learn as a kid is not really that important...it is beneficial to child language development to simply be exposed to a different language from an early age, in order to develop language acquisition skills...let's be realistic, what percentage of the population would use a european language later in life in an "economic" sense...we might as well stick with the language we have as introduce another.

Bottle_of_Smoke

alan85 wrote: »

What's the alternative?! You can moan about it or you can focus your energy and try come up with another way...

My alternative would be to teach it solely as a spoken language. None of this learning off poems you don't understand nonsense and literature studies in secondary school. To accommodate peopel who are interested in this I would have a new subject called ''Irish literature''. I would encourage primary schools to teach in Irish like gaelscoil.

It would be optional for leaving cert so the powers to be are forced to teach it like other languages and it would therefore be just as attractive to people looking for points in their leaving cert. With all the resentment vanished overnight as it would be optional. People would then take pride in it like they do in the 6 counties or how Welsh people see Welsh

Personally, I think it should be encouraged in public places. I remember people who could speak Irish used to wear a pin on their lapel to show they did so. I'd love to see that come back. Or public service workers on the front line be encouraged to use greetings in Irish. Build it slowly but surely.

The road traffic signs in the free state are all in Irish I don't see how it could be more encouraged. Things like the pin have to be done by individuals it isn't a matter for the government(though I agree I would like to see that come back) I was in Magherafelt a few months ago and there were 'heart an gaelige' stickers all over the place. You see them in pubs in Belfast too.

As for Irish in school I don't think it's entirely possible to make it as sexy as people would like. Did you ever like maths or physics?! Those required effort... People just want an easy ride...

Actually they were my favorite subjects I also liked English/geography some of the time.

alan85

Actually they were my favorite subjects I also liked English/geography some of the time.

I just wanted to convey that everyone have subjects that they didn't particulary like or wish to study. A lot of people have problems with maths and don't use it beyond addition and subtraction in daily life so should we drop the teaching of algerba and trigonometry? Coincidentally, they were my fav. subjects too and what I did best in...

Bottle_of_Smoke

del_c wrote: »

Maybe it is because those people (myself included) realise that teaching languages is very difficult in a school environment where kids are often surrounded by statements like "Sure it's a useless language anyway" (often from the home, but mainly from peers and the like). As you get older, you get more of an appreciation for it and can apply the discipline needed for learning a language in order that you build a framework of grammar you can use while speaking it. Learning languages is very difficult in a classroom. I left school with atrocious German, though I was reasonably motivated to learn it (unlike Irish which I despised:-( )...after 4 years of university added to this it was not brilliant either; I only really grasped it when I lived in Germany AND worked in an environment in which I was immersed in it.
Having come back to irish now after 20 years, I am amazed how much of the sentence structures, grammar and sounds are right there underneath the surface...maybe the original teaching wasn't so bad after all. There are sounds that I will never be able to produce in German, but nothing in Irish is unpronouncable to me. Speaking it is absolutely key...if kids got a Slán in the morning and and Oíche Mhaith in the evening it would make a huge difference to their attitutes in the classroom, so parents have a responsibility too.
The education system is not perfect, but always blaming it is a bit of a lazy excuse in my view....people are only in school for 13 years, and have the rest of their lives to take it up afterward.

Note: Anybody concerned with the usefulness of Irish, I think can console themselves, that the actual language you learn as a kid is not really that important...it is beneficial to child language development to simply be exposed to a different language from an early age, in order to develop language acquisition skills...let's be realistic, what percentage of the population would use a european language later in life in an "economic" sense...we might as well stick with the language we have as introduce another.

My problem with the current system is it does not prepare you for everyday use of Irish. I think that's the main reason no-one speaks it. Also the fact that it is resented for being forced on people is the reason Irish speaking venues are limited to interest groups and very very few pubs. If that resentment was taken away you'd see a lot more people getting involved in those kind of events.

Bottle_of_Smoke

alan85 wrote: »

I just wanted to convey that everyone have subjects that they didn't particulary like or wish to study. A lot of people have problems with maths and don't use it beyond addition and subtraction in daily life so should we drop the teaching of algerba and trigonometry? Coincidentally, they were my fav. subjects too and what I did best in...

Well I don't think any subject should be mandatory(for leaving cert anyway) so yes if that is what you mean by dropping the use of algebra and trig

metrovelvet

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well I don't think any subject should be mandatory(for leaving cert anyway) so yes if that is what you mean by dropping the use of algebra and trig

But arent alegbra and trig necessary if you are going to pursue other things like engineering or architecture so it keeps your options open? They are building blocks.

Irish isnt a building block for anything is it?

Bottle_of_Smoke

metrovelvet wrote: »

But arent alegbra and trig necessary if you are going to pursue other things like engineering or architecture so it keeps your options open? They are building blocks.

Irish isnt a building block for anything is it?

If you were the type of person who was going to do engineering there's no way you would drop maths for the leaving cert. Plus you would learn the basics pre-leaving cert if you wished to do architecture(it is not as maths heavy as engineering)

alan85

My problem with the current system is it does not prepare you for everyday use of Irish. I think that's the main reason no-one speaks it. Also the fact that it is resented for being forced on people is the reason Irish speaking venues are limited to interest groups and very very few pubs. If that resentment was taken away you'd see a lot more people getting involved in those kind of events.

I found the exact same problem with Spanish. It wasn't until I spent a few months in Madrid that I took on an incredible amount of vocab. and grammar. It's amazing how much I came on. The classroom did not particularly prepare me for that envirnoment but it did provide an important basis.

Well I don't think any subject should be mandatory(for leaving cert anyway) so yes if that is what you mean by dropping the use of algebra and trig

I wouldn't agree.

Irish isnt a building block for anything is it?

I would argue that learning a language young gives you an important language skill development. It's funny, when I was living in Inverness I saw a report on the BBC on how 1 in 5 British school children were being taught in a language other than English and how this was beneficial as it gave them a higher IQ. This was because of the extra connections in the brain that another language made...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

No I never do. Trying to speaking Irish with another fluent English speaker would be very slow and tedious much like trying to speak an unfamiliar foreign language when abroad. It is far easier and more efficient to speak English. I think most of my friends would think I'd suddenly turned into an ultra nationalistic republican with the Queens face on the dart board back home if I started to speak Irish with them. Irish needs to become culturally important once again and not a propaganda tool for crazy republicans.

What utter rubbish, Irish is not some 'tool for crazy republicans' And I find you narrow minded view both of the language and of republicens ofencive.:rolleyes:

Well if I go to France I still hear French even if I'm speaking English to my companions.

Its very common for a group of Irish speakers to switch to English even if there is only one English speaker in the group.

Yes it can be used as a means of communication but as I've said previously English is a far more efficient and convenient one for the vast majority of people. I agree that French or German aren't particularly useful in Ireland however they have much more relevance when visiting Germany or France unlike Irish which has absolutely no utility abroad.

Well thats untrue, Irish can be useful abroad, There are many Universities around the world that do Irish courses or have Irish in a course. Irish or a close reletive of Irish is spoken In the UK and there is a Gaelthacht in Canada.

Well by grown organically I mean that it shouldn't be forced upon people that don't want to learn it but rather survive on its own merits. I think the state should support it in a fashion similar to the way they support the arts by giving money to successful developmental programs. I don't think people resent the language but rather that they were forced to learn it and conform to the official version of 'Irishness'.

There is an Offical version of Irishness, Can I see some evidence of this?

Any suggestions on how Irish could actually be 'grown' Useing the methods you suggest?

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Things like the pin have to be done by individuals it isn't a matter for the government(though I agree I would like to see that come back) I was in Magherafelt a few months ago and there were 'heart an gaelige' stickers all over the place. You see them in pubs in Belfast too.

I have a couple of thousand of those stickers, Spent the last few hours giveing them out in University Limerick, Conradh Na Gaeilge have them,

The badge thing was called a fáinne, You can still get them on siopa.ie and a few other places. Foras na gaeilge have a little badge that says 'Tá cupla focal agam' aswell

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

My problem with the current system is it does not prepare you for everyday use of Irish. I think that's the main reason no-one speaks it. Also the fact that it is resented for being forced on people is the reason Irish speaking venues are limited to interest groups and very very few pubs. If that resentment was taken away you'd see a lot more people getting involved in those kind of events.

Irish in the class room give the learner a great basis in Irish, This is mostly acheived in Primary school however, In secondary school I would like to see a compulsory Irish Speaking class, This would be kept on till leaving cert and Oral and Aural skills would be tested, I would leave the Potery and essay writing in a second Optional subject for the LC

del_c

"Also the fact that it is resented for being forced on people is the reason Irish speaking venues are limited to interest groups and very very few pubs. If that resentment was taken away you'd see a lot more people getting involved in those kind of events"

But the term "interest groups" implies somehow that they are not open to anyone...I would describe hospital consultants as an interest group for example. I think there is a perception that Irish speakers are an elite closed off amoong themselves and that they don't want people turning up stuttering thorugh the langauge. This a false perception; look over at the Irish section of the dicsussion board for loads of activites thorugh which people want to use Irish....people of all levels of ability.


BT - "My problem with the current system is it does not prepare you for everyday use of Irish. I think that's the main reason no-one speaks it.

alan85 wrote: »

I found the exact same problem with Spanish. It wasn't until I spent a few months in Madrid that I took on an incredible amount of vocab. and grammar. It's amazing how much I came on. The classroom did not particularly prepare me for that envirnoment but it did provide an important basis.

Between the 2 of ye, ye might be on to something. Alan, I had the same issue with German, but I moved on marvellously when immersed in it, when I found myself in Germany, Maybe the goals for Irish in schools has been set too high. The Oral exam has been moved to 50% of the LC exam now which should make a big difference, but the goals in school, should be moved to away from setting up foundations for later language use and more towards actually dragging irish out of the kids through various immersion strategies while they are in the school system. Nature walks thourgh Irish, Maybe training for some sports in the school done thorugh Irish, events after school in which Irish is used, the odd class in other subjects (basic Maths etc.) done through irish...I only really remember doing Irish in Irish class in school (lots of the dreaded projector), apart from the odd music lesson.
This might leave the stronger pupils less ready for starting a degree course in Irish, but would improve attitudes and Oral proficiency in the pupil body as a whole.

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

What utter rubbish, Irish is not some 'tool for crazy republicans' And I find you narrow minded view both of the language and of republicens ofencive.:rolleyes:

Well Irish is used as a tool by crazy republicans fortunately that's not all it is however the militant republicans give it a bad name.

Well thats untrue, Irish can be useful abroad, There are many Universities around the world that do Irish courses or have Irish in a course. Irish or a close reletive of Irish is spoken In the UK and there is a Gaelthacht in Canada

Many universities abroad have courses in numerous highly specialised fields of interest. What's your point? I think everyone will agree here that Irish has very little practical use abroad.

There is an Offical version of Irishness, Can I see some evidence of this?

Yes the fact that Irish is a compulsory subject in school.

alan85

dkin: Could you name some of these 'crazy republicans' that give Irish a bad name?

I think your ignorance and sterotyping is the problem, not the reality...

dkin

alan85 wrote: »

dkin: Could you name some of these 'crazy republicans' that give Irish a bad name?

I think your ignorance and sterotyping is the problem, not the reality...

Well before we start throwing insults. I'm simply making the point that if as suggested previously I started trying to speak to Irish to anyone I thought had a good enough level from their schools days a lot of people would interpret it as a very republican and nationalistic stance. So in that sense I feel republicans give it a bad name.

There is an Irish elite who are very conservative and although nationalistic don't like to shout it from the rooftops who also speak Irish regularly (McDowell etc) and I imagine most of these people see it as a cultural expression rather than the more militant image Irish has got thanks to the Shinners and other republican fringe groups.

Bottle_of_Smoke

dkin wrote: »

Well before we start throwing insults. I'm simply making the point that if as suggested previously I started trying to speak to Irish to anyone I thought had a good enough level from their schools days a lot of people would interpret it as a very republican and nationalistic stance. So in that sense I feel republicans give it a bad name.

There is an Irish elite who are very conservative and although nationalistic don't like to shout it from the rooftops who also speak Irish regularly (McDowell etc) and I imagine most of these people see it as a cultural expression rather than the more militant image Irish has got thanks to the Shinners and other republican fringe groups.

Interesting I find it is usually the conservative upper class types who harp on about how everyone should speak Irish whereas republicans just say they wish they could speak it