Is Irish a dead language?

alan85

Well before we start throwing insults. I'm simply making the point that if as suggested previously I started trying to speak to Irish to anyone I thought had a good enough level from their schools days a lot of people would interpret it as a very republican and nationalistic stance. So in that sense I feel republicans give it a bad name.

There is an Irish elite who are very conservative and although nationalistic don't like to shout it from the rooftops who also speak Irish regularly (McDowell etc) and I imagine most of these people see it as a cultural expression rather than the more militant image Irish has got thanks to the Shinners and other republican fringe groups.

I think if that's what you're afraid of it's pretty weak. Set your own persona of being Irish and proud if that's what you want. I have a Republican politic, as most Irish do and I don't worry about what others think of me saying 'slán' on the phone to them... If anything I think your friends that you speak Irish to would react with surprise rather than fear your level of Republicanism if anything at hearing Irish as you don't hear it much in the daily grind. I was walking around NUI Galway recently and heard two people talking fluently in it and was so surprised and impressed at same time! I think most Irish would react the same...

dkin

alan85 wrote: »

I think if that's what you're afraid of it's pretty weak. Set your own persona of being Irish and proud if that's what you want. I have a Republican politic, as most Irish do and I don't worry about what others think of me saying 'slán' on the phone to them... If anything I think your friends that you speak Irish to would react with surprise rather than fear your level of Republicanism if anything at hearing Irish as you don't hear it much in the daily grind. I was walking around NUI Galway recently and heard two people talking fluently in it and was so surprised and impressed at same time! I think most Irish would react the same...

Well tbh I don't want to be associated with a republican politic but if that's what you're about fair enough I think we can all share the same country. I wouldn't be afraid of anything anyone thinks about me and I never said I was I'm simply stating that speaking Irish has been linked with the shinners and it's a real pity.

jock101

Yes it is, its a language of an minority who force it on the majority who do not want to learn or use it. It is also tainted with Republican violence and fundamentalism. If you people mainly from the West want to learn, speak and indoctrinate your children with this worthless language in my opinion, that is your choice. But do not impose your language and culture on people who do not want to have anything to do with it! Speaking Gaelic does not make you Irish, as 90pc of the population shows! RIP Irish Gaelic.

Bottle_of_Smoke

jock101 wrote: »

. It is also tainted with Republican violence and fundamentalism.

No, that is just simply nuts.

It is a language - a collection of sounds arranged in a certain way to allow communication between people who understand it.

It is not some secret code invented by republicans it pre-dates their identity.

alan85

Well tbh I don't want to be associated with a republican politic but if that's what you're about fair enough I think we can all share the same country. I wouldn't be afraid of anything anyone thinks about me and I never said I was I'm simply stating that speaking Irish has been linked with the shinners and it's a real pity.

I don't mean to offend you but you seem to be full of stereotypes. I'm not a 'shinner' as you call it. I am Republican though. The majority of Ireland are Republican including those that are not associated with Sinn Féin. Fianna Fáil are a Republican party also... I train in a Unionist part of the North of Ireland and I like to think I'm open minded and I don't associate what you do with Irish... It's an ignorant mindset you have in my opinion.

Do you associate English with extemist violent Orangemen? Or Arabic with muslim terrorism? Grow up!

jock101

Well in the FreeState, Gaelic is forced on children to learn at school and by the Government in certain civil service jobs. Which I consider to be cultural fascism. I am Irish but I do not have any cultural or political connection with that language! So why should it be imposed on me!

dkin

alan85 wrote: »

I don't mean to offend you but you seem to be full of stereotypes. I'm not a 'shinner' as you call it. I am Republican though. The majority of Ireland are Republican including those that are not associated with Sinn Féin. Fianna Fáil are a Republican party also... I train in a Unionist part of the North of Ireland and I like to think I'm open minded and I don't associate what you do with Irish... It's an ignorant mindset you have in my opinion.

Do you associate English with extemist violent Orangemen? Or Arabic with muslim terrorism? Grow up!

Well define republican than. I'm a republican in that I believe a republic is a good way to govern the country. I think most people in Ireland agree with me. I think you know well what I mean when I say republican, the small element in Ireland that seem to carry a permanent grudge against the English and attempt to indoctrinate everyone into their ideal Irish stereotype and make people who do not necessarily conform to this stereotype the subject of abuse. Indeed any criticism or disagreement is treated as an act of treason.

These are the people I am referring to (the 'shinners') and I did not include you in their number. Fortunately lots of other perfectly reasonable Irish people support the Irish language too but don't agree in coercion or cultural superiority. However the language has been tainted by them and I think the reaction you would get if you attempted to speak Irish to most Irish people would tell you this.

I think you already knew this however as most people reading this do, so I've no idea why you reacted in the way that you did. Mock outrage I guess and please less of the petty insults I just ignore them.

jock101

dkin wrote: »

Well define republican than. I'm a republican in that I believe a republic is a good way to govern the country. I think most people in Ireland agree with me. I think you know well what I mean when I say republican, the small element in Ireland that seem to carry a permanent grudge against the English and attempt to indoctrinate everyone into their ideal Irish stereotype and make people who do not necessarily conform to this stereotype the subject of abuse. Indeed any criticism or disagreement is treated as an act of treason.

These are the people I am referring to (the 'shinners') and I did not include you in their number. Fortunately lots of other perfectly reasonable Irish people support the Irish language too but don't agree in coercion or cultural superiority. However the language has been tainted by them and I think the reaction you would get if you attempted to speak Irish to most Irish people would tell you this.

I think you already knew this however as most people reading this do, so I've no idea why you reacted in the way that you did. Mock outrage I guess and please less of the petty insults I just ignore them.

Yeah, you so called Republicans have done a great job since 1922! lol What is this the fourth Recession/Depression! Since the nasty Brits left you to your own devices! Alright Ted, good luck with that!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: All the idiology and Gaelic language wont provide a decent future for you or your children!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

alan85

You're the one that brought politics and terrorism into it. I live in Dublin, train in the North of Ireland, lived in Britain (just to give you some of my backround) and it is the furthest thing from my mind when I think of Irish. I think you are caught up in exactly the same way you criticise others of being caught up with extremist Republicanism and an ideal. Why do you have such negativity associated with Irish? For me it's incredibly positive... I'll post the link I posted earlier just to emphasise that... Please have a read of it... Btw, there are Welsh Nationalists and some quite ardent at that... Has it stopped those in Wales of adopting their language with such positivity? No...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml

I think you're getting off the point a little...

dkin

jock101 wrote: »

Yeah, you so called Republicans have done a great job since 1922! lol What is this the fourth Recession/Depression! Since the nasty Brits left you to your own devices! Alright Ted, good luck with that!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: All the idiology and Gaelic language wont provide a decent future for you or your children!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The great thing about living in a republic is that the only people to blame are ourselves. We were a democracy before 1922 anyway the only difference really was that we replaced the British monarch with one based in Armagh!

jock101

I want the choice to learn Gaelic or not for school children. The option would be nice, and not waste large amounts of tax revenue on a dead language used by a few thousand people on a daily basis!

jock101

dkin wrote: »

The great thing about living in a republic is that the only people to blame are ourselves. We were a democracy before 1922 anyway the only difference really was that we replaced the British monarch with one based in Armagh!

lol, very funny, but also sadly true!:D

dkin

alan85 wrote: »

You're the one that brought politics and terrorism into it. I live in Dublin, train in the North of Ireland, lived in Britain (just to give you some of my backround) and it is the furthest thing from my mind when I think of Irish. I think you are caught up in exactly the same way you criticise others of being caught up with extremist Republicanism and an ideal. Why do you have such negativity associated with Irish? For me it's incredibly positive... I'll post the link I posted earlier just to emphasise that... Please have a read of it... Btw, there are Welsh Nationalists and some quite ardent at that... Has it stopped those in Wales of adopting their language with such positivity? No...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml

I think you're getting off the point a little...

I personally support bilingualism in children for many of the reasons mentioned in that article although personally I think a modern European language would be more beneficial or possibly chinese.
I don't have any such negativity associated with Irish but rather the motives of some of those that support it. Many in Ireland would see it more as an expression of nationalistic sentiments and an attempt to appear culturally superior and elitist when compared with everyone else. Most people support it in theory but I'd like to see you try getting people to speak it one to one.

alan85

The great thing about living in a republic is that the only people to blame are ourselves. We were a democracy before 1922 anyway the only difference really was that we replaced the British monarch with one based in Armagh!

I take it you're talking about the Catholic Church... We agree there. I'd like to see the back of those w**kers too. Any self-respecting Republican would.

I don't have any such negativity associated with Irish but rather the motives of some of those that support it. Many in Ireland would see it more as an expression of nationalistic sentiments and an attempt to appear culturally superior and elitist when compared with everyone else.

You're a biggot and you're getting off the issue. I'll leave you to it. Slán.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

Well Irish is used as a tool by crazy republicans fortunately that's not all it is however the militant republicans give it a bad name.

Way to simplify a complicated issue:rolleyes:

Many universities abroad have courses in numerous highly specialised fields of interest. What's your point? I think everyone will agree here that Irish has very little practical use abroad.

Indeed it is of little use abroad, Whats your point, So is the ability to play hurling, Dosent mean its not relevant here.

Yes the fact that Irish is a compulsory subject in school.

So is English, Would that also be part of ''Official Irishness''?

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

Well before we start throwing insults. I'm simply making the point that if as suggested previously I started trying to speak to Irish to anyone I thought had a good enough level from their schools days a lot of people would interpret it as a very republican and nationalistic stance. So in that sense I feel republicans give it a bad name.

I have never come across this reaction, someone would have to be fairly sencitive to think that, To be honest the only time I hear that connection made is by people trying to come up with mud to throw at Irish.

There is an Irish elite who are very conservative and although nationalistic don't like to shout it from the rooftops who also speak Irish regularly (McDowell etc) and I imagine most of these people see it as a cultural expression rather than the more militant image Irish has got thanks to the Shinners and other republican fringe groups.

Irish dose not have a Militant Image. Yes some people who support SF have an interest in Irish, that dose not make it a tool for crazy republicans:rolleyes:

deise go deo

jock101 wrote: »

Well in the FreeState, Gaelic is forced on children to learn at school and by the Government in certain civil service jobs. Which I consider to be cultural fascism. I am Irish but I do not have any cultural or political connection with that language! So why should it be imposed on me!

What year do you live in? Its called the Republic now.

Cultural Fascism? Haha. Best laugh iv had all day.

You do now this forum is supposed to be for reasoned debate?
I think there may be a rant forum somewhere but this isent it.;)

deise go deo

jock101 wrote: »

Yeah, you so called Republicans have done a great job since 1922! lol What is this the fourth Recession/Depression! Since the nasty Brits left you to your own devices! Alright Ted, good luck with that!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: All the idiology and Gaelic language wont provide a decent future for you or your children!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ya because Britain did such a great job of running the country before our independence.

Its called Gaeilge actually, and being bi-lingual is a great benefit to give a child.

alan85

Yeah, you so called Republicans have done a great job since 1922! lol What is this the fourth Recession/Depression! Since the nasty Brits left you to your own devices! Alright Ted, good luck with that! All the idiology and Gaelic language wont provide a decent future for you or your children!

Didn't we avoid the global recession of 2001 after the terror attacks on the U.S.? And was it not Britain that called in the I.M.F. in 1976?! Goes to show all countries have their economic woes. And who said Irish was for monetary gain? It's a cultural richness. Anything else is a bonus.

junder

Surly the fact that the question set out in the title of this thread needs to be asked in the first is answer enough

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

So is the ability to play hurling, Dosent mean its not relevant here.

That puts Irish on an equal level with any other sport. Nice to see that.

deise go deo wrote: »

So is English, Would that also be part of ''Official Irishness''?

English is much more than one of our official languages. It is the language chosen by a massive majority of Irish people.

deise go deo wrote: »

being bi-lingual is a great benefit to give a child.

Especially if the other language was to be Russian or Mandarin.

Cú Giobach

junder wrote: »

Surly the fact that the question set out in the title of this thread needs to be asked in the first is answer enough

As it says in the link in the OP, how can a language be dead when thousands of people still speak it.

cyclopath2001:
English is much more than one of our official languages. It is the language chosen by a massive majority of Irish people.

People don't really "choose" to speak English, but thousands do choose to speak Irish.

Whats wrong with spending money on part of our culture??
As I said in another thread on a different topic, why put money into sport or art??
Should we stop paying for the upkeep of museums??
Some things are more important than money.
If Irish was dead no doubt we would be mourning it, a case of "Not appreciating something until it's gone".

Yes the Gaeltachts are shrinking, but usage outside these areas is increasing.
Irish could become like Welsh and be more mixed into the general population.
Big change is defiantly needed in teaching. It should be spoken for a year or two no writing, then reading and writing should be introduced (this is how we learn a language properly).

metrovelvet

Cú Giobach wrote: »

As it says in the link in the OP, how can a language be dead when thousands of people still speak it.



People don't really "choose" to speak English, but thousands do choose to speak Irish.

Whats wrong with spending money on part of our culture??
As I said in another thread on a different topic, why put money into sport or art??
Should we stop paying for the upkeep of museums??
Some things are more important than money.
If Irish was dead no doubt we would be mourning it, a case of "Not appreciating something until it's gone".

Yes the Gaeltachts are shrinking, but usage outside these areas is increasing.
Irish could become like Welsh and be more mixed into the general population.
Big change is defiantly needed in teaching. It should be spoken for a year or two no writing, then reading and writing should be introduced (this is how we learn a language properly).

Ireland would not be on the cultural map if she did not speak English.

Ten percent of the Irish population speak Irish. Dont you think its an over priced vanity project?

Yes I believe in bi lingualism, but I'd even prefer Latin to Irish because at least Latin is at the center of Europe and will give you access to a wider variety of histories and culture.

alan85

Well, like I said in a previous post I think this is a pointless arguement. I for one am learning Irish and am happy to do so and support it when I can. My girlfriend is learning too. My dad took it up years ago and we speak a little in the house. As long as I and others like me are doing so it will not be dead. It's clear watching TG4 and listening to RnaG and hearing how ppl use it that it's not dead.

Ulster Scots.... That's a different story altogether. I haven't ever heard anyone speak it. I only saw some adverts for it once...

I wonder if the fact that BBC NI have programmes 'as Gaeilge' now does it peeve off the Unionists on here such as the post that describes himself being from 'United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.' Not to put you down for doing so but thanks for pointing that out... lol...

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Ireland would not be on the cultural map if she did not speak English.

What dose that mean? Dose this just apply to Ireland or all countries who dont speak English, Is Belgum not on the Cultural map?
For that matter is England on the Cultural map,
You come out with little claims like this but you cant back them up and generaly they are so vague they couldent be backed up if you tried.

Ten percent of the Irish population speak Irish. Dont you think its an over priced vanity project?

Tell you what, Run an election campaghain on the basis of getting rid of Irish, If people are as fed up with it as you seam to think then they would support you right?

Yes I believe in bi lingualism, but I'd even prefer Latin to Irish because at least Latin is at the center of Europe and will give you access to a wider variety of histories and culture.

So any European culture is better than our own? Sorry but im not convinced.

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

Surly the fact that the question set out in the title of this thread needs to be asked in the first is answer enough

And what exactly does it say?

Any arguments stating that the language was dead, were long squashed in the first few pages of this thread. The Irish language is alive and well.

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Indeed it is of little use abroad, Whats your point, So is the ability to play hurling, Dosent mean its not relevant here.

That was a response to someone who claimed Irish was useful abroad and used the fact that it is taught in certain universities to justify it. That's my point.

So is English, Would that also be part of ''Official Irishness''?

English is the primary language everyone speaks in Ireland it would be gross neglect to send a child out into the world without a good grounding in English as it is an essential part of everyday life. This is a practical decision, not based on ideology as all schooling decisions should be.

I have never come across this reaction, someone would have to be fairly sencitive to think that, To be honest the only time I hear that connection made is by people trying to come up with mud to throw at Irish.

You can only speak from your experience and I can only speak from mine. I fail to see how people who feel this are 'sensitive' as most of us have been forced to learn Irish since childhood and many are very resentful of this and dislike the ideologues and their motives who support it.
I assume we both went to school and in my case Irish was certainly not cherished by the vast majority and although many people have a desire to speak Irish later in life, they do not take kindly to those who like to impose it and try to make them speak it or make them listen to it.

Irish dose not have a Militant Image. Yes some people who support SF have an interest in Irish, that dose not make it a tool for crazy republicans

Irish has a complex image that changes from person to person. I would hold those who set up gaelscoils and do their best to support the language in high regard. I consider those who try to force their ideals onto me and force me to listen or talk in Irish to be very uncompromising and nationalistic.

Focalbhach

dlofnep wrote: »

The Irish language is alive and well.

Well... it's alive.

junder

dlofnep wrote: »

And what exactly does it say?

Any arguments stating that the language was dead, were long squashed in the first few pages of this thread. The Irish language is alive and well.

So it's your primary language and is the first language of your country. Tell me since Irish is compulsory in all your schools howcome so few speak it?

alan85

So it's your primary language and is the first language of your country. Tell me since Irish is compulsory in all your schools howcome so few speak it?

Good question! That's what we're trying to figure out so we can try get it spoken more publicly.

Btw, Junder, from U.K. as you like to point out. I hope you're as against and just as vocal about Welsh and Scottish Gaelic as you seem to be about Irish. Me thinks you may have a bee in your bonnet... Just a hunch... Why don't you worry more about affairs in your own country?