Is Irish a dead language?

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

So it's your primary language and is the first language of your country.

It is constitutionally the first official language of the country. It is the main language only in some Gaeltacht areas. However - The question asked initially was "Is Irish a dead language"? It is quite clear that it isn't. The Irish language is alive, and is growing in strength. Especially in the north, where 2 language centres have very strong support (Cultúrlann in Derry & Belfast).

junder wrote: »

Tell me since Irish is compulsory in all your schools howcome so few speak it?

This question has already been answered on a number of occasions. In summary - the curriculum doesn't focus enough on spoken Irish, and doesn't provide children with an immersed environement. In contrast to Gaelscoileanna (Irish language medium schools), which provide high levels of competent speakers - it is quite evident that Irish language speakers will never be produced in our schools, unless the curriculum and attitude changes.

In essence - to learn a language, you must have an opportunity to use it, and you must be placed in an environment where it is used. In our schools, Irish isn't used by teachers to teach any subjects, (except Irish - which is taught also through English) - and because of this, children just don't hear it enough, or get to speak it enough to become proficient in it.

Iwasfrozen

alan85 wrote: »

Good question! That's what we're trying to figure out so we can try get it spoken more publicly.

Btw, Junder, from U.K. as you like to point out. I hope you're as against and just as vocal about Welsh and Scottish Gaelic as you seem to be about Irish. Me thinks you may have a bee in your bonnet... Just a hunch... Why don't you worry more about affairs in your own country?

He has no more a bee in his bonnet then some of the nationalist posters here. Also since Irish is taught in schools in the north, he is worrying about his own country.

alan85

He has no more a bee in his bonnet then some of the nationalist posters here. Also since Irish is taught in schools in the north, he is worrying about his own country.

Well, being from the 'U.K.' he should put it in context so and also mention Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Scots and Ulster Scots amongst others in the same breath don't you think? Are they dead? Do they deserve funding and support Junder?

Iwasfrozen

alan85 wrote: »

Well, being from the 'U.K.' he should put it in context so and also mention Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Scots and Ulster Scots amongst others in the same breath don't you think? Are they dead? Do they deserve funding and support Junder?

Why'd you put the U.K in quotes? He is from the U.K. As for his position on the other regional languages of the U.K, you'll have to wait for him to responde.

alan85

Why'd you put the U.K in quotes?

I put it in quotes because depending on who you talk to the North Of Ireland could be Ireland or U.K.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

That was a response to someone who claimed Irish was useful abroad and used the fact that it is taught in certain universities to justify it. That's my point.

You claimed thea Irish was Absouletly useless Abroad. I was just pointing out that that is not True, I accept that it isent very usefull but so what.

English is the primary language everyone speaks in Ireland it would be gross neglect to send a child out into the world without a good grounding in English as it is an essential part of everyday life. This is a practical decision, not based on ideology as all schooling decisions should be.

English is tought in Schools for that reason, Even in Gaelscoils.
Can I ask what is the practicle basis for teaching History?

You can only speak from your experience and I can only speak from mine. I fail to see how people who feel this are 'sensitive' as most of us have been forced to learn Irish since childhood and many are very resentful of this and dislike the ideologues and their motives who support it.
I assume we both went to school and in my case Irish was certainly not cherished by the vast majority and although many people have a desire to speak Irish later in life, they do not take kindly to those who like to impose it and try to make them speak it or make them listen to it.

Because to concider some with an Intrest in Irish as some crazy republicn just for trying to speak the language is a grose over reaction. Suggesting they are sensitive to the issue.
What is it you dislike about the Ideaoligy of promoating Irish?

Irish has a complex image that changes from person to person. I would hold those who set up gaelscoils and do their best to support the language in high regard. I consider those who try to force their ideals onto me and force me to listen or talk in Irish to be very uncompromising and nationalistic.

Other people can have what ever opinion they want of Irish. Why should I not speak Irish to someone just beacuse someone close by may have something against it.
If I chose to speak Irish in the Tax office for example, would you feel that I was being unreasonable and Nationalistic for ''Forceing'' those around me to listen to it?

Iwasfrozen

alan85 wrote: »

I put it in quotes because depending on who you talk to the North Of Ireland could be Ireland or U.K.

Sorry, but it's not ''depending on who you talk to'', that's just plain daft. The six counties up north are part of the United Kingdom, there is no if's or buts about it. They are geographically part of the island of Ireland but nothing more.

dlofnep

Can you both give up about the constitutional status of the north? This topic is here to discuss the present standing of the Irish language.

alan85

Sorry, but it's not ''depending on who you talk to'', that's just plain daft. The six counties up north are part of the United Kingdom, there is no if's or buts about it. They are geographically part of the island of Ireland but nothing more.

Even though they are part of the U.K., no denying it, a lot of people don't wish to refer to them as such.

Iwasfrozen

alan85 wrote: »

Even though they are part of the U.K., no denying it, a lot of people don't wish to refer to them as such.

It doesn't matter whether some people want to refer to the six counties as being in the U.K or not, they don't have that right.

alan85

It doesn't matter whether some people want to refer to the six counties as being in the U.K or not, they don't have that right.

Oh, come on! Stop being silly. You're over simplifying the situation.

Are you going to go on a P.C. march and tell those from Derry, Ireland that they should be saying L'Derry, U.K.?

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I realise there are two sides to it up there. Personally, when I lived in Belfast, I lived in Belfast, Ireland. But I accept others say different. It's about mutual respect. Part of the reason I put it in quotes was to emphasise to Junder that in the U.K. there are multiple languages and some would argue dead languages and I wanted him to realise that by scurrying Irish the way he did he may be shooting himself in the foot...

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

English is tought in Schools for that reason, Even in Gaelscoils.
Can I ask what is the practicle basis for teaching History?

Well history is not a compulsory subject after the junior cert. I gave up history after my JC and always regretted it later but I've learned about it independently. I feel a good knowledge of history is more valuable than a good knowledge of Irish as history has a habit of repeating itself and many historical lessons can be applied to the modern day. For instance the recent Irish housing bubble has many historical parallels. It is also very important in understanding modern times which all have historical basis. For instance the USA didn't appear from nowhere is it not important to have an understanding of its foundation and history? People who do not understand history sufficiently are also susceptible to manipulation and propaganda as they frequently believe what they are told as they have no basis to refute the facts as presented. Education is a compromise I am simply on the side of the people who think there are more important and practical things to learn than Irish and object to the fact that it is a compulsory subject.

However in general I agree with you that history should not be fostered on those with no interest in the subject. I feel that the best learning is achieved through intrinsic motivation although external motivation such as exams do achieve results I think that languages in particular suffer under this educational system as they are difficult and require long term commitment unlike history where it is possible to cram when the exam is approaching. For instance I think it is unfair to compare Irish students failure to learn modern languages properly with their european counterparts who are much more heavily motivated to learn English that they see and hear it on a daily business.

Because to concider some with an Intrest in Irish as some crazy republicn just for trying to speak the language is a grose over reaction. Suggesting they are sensitive to the issue.
What is it you dislike about the Ideaoligy of promoating Irish?

I don't consider those with an interest in Irish as crazy republicans only those who seem so determined to shove it down everyones throat. I mentioned above that I hold those that promote the language in high esteem.

Other people can have what ever opinion they want of Irish. Why should I not speak Irish to someone just beacuse someone close by may have something against it.
If I chose to speak Irish in the Tax office for example, would you feel that I was being unreasonable and Nationalistic for ''Forceing'' those around me to listen to it?

I agree you should speak Irish, I've already said it was a pity that the language has been used as a tool by those crazy republicans and been tainted by them. I never said you shouldn't use it if you want and those around you wouldn't object unless you tried to converse with them in Irish in which case many but not all would have a negative reaction.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

Well history is not a compulsory subject after the junior cert. I gave up history after my JC and always regretted it later but I've learned about it independently. I feel a good knowledge of history is more valuable than a good knowledge of Irish as history has a habit of repeating itself and many historical lessons can be applied to the modern day. For instance the recent Irish housing bubble has many historical parallels. It is also very important in understanding modern times which all have historical basis. For instance the USA didn't appear from nowhere is it not important to have an understanding of its foundation and history? People who do not understand history sufficiently are also susceptible to manipulation and propaganda as they frequently believe what they are told as they have no basis to refute the facts as presented. Education is a compromise I am simply on the side of the people who think there are more important and practical things to learn than Irish and object to the fact that it is a compulsory subject.

So what place if any should Irish have in the Education System and the state as a whole then?

I don't consider those with an interest in Irish as crazy republicans only those who seem so determined to shove it down everyones throat. I mentioned above that I hold those that promote the language in high esteem.

What do you mean shove it down everyons throat?
You hold those who want to promoat Irish in High Esteam but you concider people who beleive the best way to promoat Irish is for it to remain Compulsary in some way as crazy republicens?
Quite a wide gap in opinion for two groups who often work together and share many commonalities in their promoation of irish

I agree you should speak Irish, I've already said it was a pity that the language has been used as a tool by those crazy republicans and been tainted by them. I never said you shouldn't use it if you want and those around you wouldn't object unless you tried to converse with them in Irish in which case many but not all would have a negative reaction.

So while Irish is tainted by Republicens to the extent that you trying to speak Irish with people who went to a Gaelscoil would provoke a reaction of them thinking you to be a crazy republicen, you Agree with me that speaking Irish in a tax office is acceptable?
So you dont mind me speaking Irish as long as I dont actually try to talk to someone else?

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

So what place if any should Irish have in the Education System and the state as a whole then?

As I suggested earlier the state should support Irish in the same way it supports the arts by giving money to developmental efforts. The subject should be an optional subject in schools. GAA and Irish dancing aren't compulsory and look how successful they are.

What do you mean shove it down everyons throat?
You hold those who want to promoat Irish in High Esteam but you concider people who beleive the best way to promoat Irish is for it to remain Compulsary in some way as crazy republicens?
Quite a wide gap in opinion for two groups who often work together and share many commonalities in their promoation of irish

As I've said previously I don't agree with those that think it's compulsory to teach Irish in schools and I would think their ideological principles highly suspect. I've already outlined briefly above why I think compulsory language teaching is a bad idea and I think I'm correct judging by the huge numbers who leave our educational system unable to speak Irish or any other modern European language. I really can't understand the logic of anyone who claims after 90 years of trying and failing that compulsory Irish is a good idea.

So while Irish is tainted by Republicens to the extent that you trying to speak Irish with people who went to a Gaelscoil would provoke a reaction of them thinking you to be a crazy republicen, you Agree with me that speaking Irish in a tax office is acceptable?

Well yes because the tax office is required by law to conduct business with you in Irish. I'm not sure what reaction of the the person dealing with your query would be but I'd be willing to bet the average person in the tax office probably throws their eyes to heaven while thinking 'here's another one' and swiftly runs off to find someone who can speak Irish. Obviously this won't be the reaction of all tax officials, I'm just saying it's quite likely.

So you dont mind me speaking Irish as long as I dont actually try to talk to someone else?

In general I don't mind you speaking Irish so long as it doesn't involve trying to force me to speak it.

deise go deo

As I've said previously I don't agree with those that think it's compulsory to teach Irish in schools and I would think their ideological principles highly suspect. I've already outlined briefly above why I think compulsory language teaching is a bad idea and I think I'm correct judging by the huge numbers who leave our educational system unable to speak Irish or any other modern European language. I really can't understand the logic of anyone who claims after 90 years of trying and failing that compulsory Irish is a good idea.

So can I ask what is the difference in Ideology between Someone who promoats Irish and someone who beleiver the compulsory route is the best/most effective option?

This has been discussed before, Sufice it to say I see the problem as the method of teaching Irish, The Curriculum rather than its compulsory status.

Well yes because the tax office is required by law to conduct business with you in Irish. I'm not sure what reaction of the the person dealing with your query would be but I'd be willing to bet the average person in the tax office probably throws their eyes to heaven while thinking 'here's another one' and swiftly runs off to find someone who can speak Irish. Obviously this won't be the reaction of all tax officials, I'm just saying it's quite likely.

So do you think that law is appropriate, Given your choice would you change it?

Say I was in a pub and tried to speak Irish with the bar man because I happened to know he went to a Gaelscoil, Would that be a crazy republicen thing to do?

In general I don't mind you speaking Irish so long as it doesn't involve trying to force me to speak it.

What do youmean 'forceing you to speak it'?
How would I do that, Fair enough I accept that putting a gun to someones head and telling them to Bí ag caint as Gaeilge would be a inapproiat but how else would I ''Force'' you?

Say I came up to you and started talking to you as gaeilge, Would that be Forceing you to Speak/listen to Irish, Would you not speaking Irish back not be forceing me to speak English?

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Thas has been discussed before, Sufice it to say I see the problem as the method of teaching Irish, The Curriculum rather than its compulsory status.

I disagree with you here, it doesn't matter what the curriculum is unless the student wants to learn it. This is especially true of languages and maths. Would you say that the curriculum of all the other languages taught in Irish schools needs to be changed as well as they also have a dismal success rate.

So do you think that law is appropriate, Given your choice would you change it?

Well I have no real objection to this law as it never effects me. Personally I think the state should support the language and although it can probably be done on a more cost efficient basis than currently I agree that the option should exist to interact with the state apparatus in Irish.

Say I was in a pub and tried to speak Irish with the bar man because I happened to know he went to a Gaelscoil, Would that be a crazy republicen thing to do?

In general I wouldn't say it is. I've already said I have no problem with people speaking Irish in fact I encourage it. However it wouldn't surprise me if the barman thought you had strong nationalistic views.

What do youmean 'forceing you to speak it'?
How would I do that, Fair enough I accept that putting a gun to someones head and telling them to Bí ag caint as Gaeilge would be a inapproiat but how else would I ''Force'' you?

Well you are a supporter of a system that forced me to learn it in school based on purely ideological principles.

Say I came up to you and started talking to you as gaeilge, Would that be Forceing you to Speak/listen to Irish, Would you not speaking Irish back not be forceing me to speak English?

Well I like many Irish people would probably do my best to ignore you, while stereotyping you an an uncompromising crazy republican.

alan85

Well I like many Irish people would probably do my best to ignore you, while stereotyping you an an uncompromising crazy republican.

I'm going to get another infraction here but I don't care. I think I have 9 lives before I get banned.

You're a bigot!

Scofflaw

alan85 wrote: »

I'm going to get another infraction here but I don't care. I think I have 9 lives before I get banned.

You're a bigot!

Unfortunately, you're wrong about the nine lives. Banned for a week, because we've already had this conversation.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Ald

I think something needs to be said to a couple of posters about the tone of their arguement. It's clear they have an agenda against the language. It's offensive to me anyways that they insinuate a connection between Irish and terrorism/crime. That's unacceptable and moderators should be fair and react to that!

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

Well I like many Irish people would probably do my best to ignore you, while stereotyping you an an uncompromising crazy republican.

Would it be acceptable for me to label your views as that of an Uncompromosing crazy west brit?

If not how about toneing down the labels?

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Would it be acceptable for me to label your views as that of an Uncompromosing crazy west brit?

If not how about toneing down the labels?

I'd agree to toning down the labels that's fair enough. I will instead use 'ideologues who believe in the restoration of historical gaelic culture over their modern equivalents and are supportive of state coercion and suppression to achieve these aims'.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

People don't really "choose" to speak English, but thousands do choose to speak Irish.

That sounds like you're looking down your nose at English-speakers, your fellow citizens, by assuming that, unlike Irish-speakers, they cannot make cultural choices.

Of course they've chosen English. They've decided not to switch over to Irish, in spite of the undoubted economic, cultural and social treasures that await them. Not to mention the hot Gaelic chicks.

Alan85 wrote:

Good question! That's what we're trying to figure out so we can try get it spoken more publicly.

The answer is that the majority of Irish people have no intention of speaking Irish.

The Gaelic revival (of language, culture and sport) was a Nationalist/Home Rule tactic in the 19th century to convert diffuse anti-English sentiment into a focused political power-base. It's not the only time that politicians have revived ancient myths and messages of racial purity to further their agendas.

Ald

The Gaelic revival (of language, culture and sport) was a Nationalist/Home Rule tactic in the 19th century to convert diffuse anti-English sentiment into a focused political power-base. It's not the only time that politicians have revived ancient myths and messages of racial purity to further their agendas.

You're talking through your anus!

Irish was banned by the Brits until 1871 and actively discouraged by the Catholic Church until 1890. The reason for this was because English was the principal language in the U.S.A and Britain where most emigrants from Ireland would be settling. Even in the homestead it was actively discouraged by parents to speak Irish. Unfortunately, they were not cluded up about the benefits of bilingualism. Some of this attitude probably still spills over today...

Cú Giobach

metrovelvet wrote: »

Ireland would not be on the cultural map if she did not speak English.

Ten percent of the Irish population speak Irish. Dont you think its an over priced vanity project?

Yes I believe in bi lingualism, but I'd even prefer Latin to Irish because at least Latin is at the center of Europe and will give you access to a wider variety of histories and culture.

1. Yes She would, just like the rest of the countries in the world who don't speak English. In case you didn't realise, there are quite a few of them.

2. Saving a language and wanting to speak a very different language to English, is not cultural vanity. I'ts nothing more than wanting to speak and maybe by example spread, a very nice language. We have Irish the Welsh have theirs, the Mongolians have theirs...etc etc.
When you speak a second language you also think differently, subsequently enriching your life experience.
Anything that is irreplaceable once gone , is priceless.

3. You prefer Latin how nice. Personally I prefer Irish, am also learning Welsh and speak a fair bit of German.
Language is a tool for communication and I prefer the richness of, and choice to communicate on a day to day level in, a living language.

cyclopath2001:
That sounds like you're looking down your nose at English-speakers, your fellow citizens, by assuming that, unlike Irish-speakers, they cannot make cultural choices.

Of course they've chosen English. They've decided not to switch over to Irish, in spite of the undoubted economic, cultural and social treasures that await them. Not to mention the hot Gaelic chicks.

Looking down my nose ? :rolleyes:
What a silly comment.
People don't choose their native language, as a baby and toddler did you choose English as your native tongue??
People from a Gaeltacht don't choose Irish as their native tongue either.
Myself and 10s of thousands of native English speakers choose to speak Irish.
Deciding to speak a different language isn't like turning on a light, you can't just flip a switch. It takes time and effort, something not a lot of people can do or afford, even if they want to.
If you think there is something wrong with people wanting to speak this particular language, that is actually a problem you should try to understand in yourself.

By the way, Irish (Gaelic) women are among the most beautiful on the planet.

cyclopath2001

Ald wrote: »

Irish was banned by the Brits until 1871

Give details?

Ald wrote: »

and actively discouraged by the Catholic Church until 1890. The reason for this was because English ... Some of this attitude probably still spills over today...

None of what you said challenges what I said about Gaelic revival, nor does it change the fact that even though all of the inhibitors you mention are now absent & our government pours huge sums of money into Irish-related activities, a massive majority of the population continue to use English and are not showing any inclination to change their daily language.

But, of course this huge majority is just suffering from the trauma of centuries of English oppression and will eventually return to their true 'Irishness'........dream on....not going to happen.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That sounds like you're looking down your nose at English-speakers, your fellow citizens, by assuming that, unlike Irish-speakers, they cannot make cultural choices.

Of course they've chosen English. They've decided not to switch over to Irish, in spite of the undoubted economic, cultural and social treasures that await them. Not to mention the hot Gaelic chicks.

No its not, Only someone with a specific agenda would interpret it like that. You can hardly claim its an equal choice.

The answer is that the majority of Irish people have no intention of speaking Irish.

The answer is the majority have no ability to speak Irish and therefore dont, Learning a language takes alot of time and effort, Saying that people who dont invest time and effort in learning Irish for whatever reason must therefore reject Irish is simply wrong.

It's not the only time that politicians have revived ancient myths and messages of racial purity to further their agendas.

To what are you referring?

Originally posted by dkin
I'd agree to toning down the labels that's fair enough. I will instead use 'ideologues who believe in the restoration of historical gaelic culture over their modern equivalents and are supportive of state coercion and suppression to achieve these aims'.

Might be a bit long.
What exactly is 'suppressed'?

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But, of course this huge majority is just suffering from the trauma of centuries of English oppression and will eventually return to their true 'Irishness'........dream on....not going to happen.

If you believe people actually think like this, you are a very naive person.

junder

alan85 wrote: »

Good question! That's what we're trying to figure out so we can try get it spoken more publicly.

Btw, Junder, from U.K. as you like to point out. I hope you're as against and just as vocal about Welsh and Scottish Gaelic as you seem to be about Irish. Me thinks you may have a bee in your bonnet... Just a hunch... Why don't you worry more about affairs in your own country?

I am neither for or against Irish, it is to all tense and purposes irelavent to me. I am just wondering why a langauge with such cultural importance attached to it, that is constitutionally your first language and I'd compulsory in your schools is spokern by so few of your citizens.

A little example of Anglo Saxon for you, parhaps the English should be campaigning to get this taught again. But that's the nature of the world, things change, the world turns and Anglo Saxon becomes English.
"Raed sceal, mon secgan, rune writan.
Leop Gestngam, Lofes Geardian.
Dom areccan, Daeges onettan"

“Advice must be given, rune written, song sung, fame earned,
judgment pronounced, the day seized”

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

The answer is the majority have no ability to speak Irish and therefore dont, Learning a language takes alot of time and effort, Saying that people who dont invest time and effort in learning Irish for whatever reason must therefore reject Irish is simply wrong.

So, you look down on non-Irish speakers as people of lesser ability? That, is of course assuming some did not apply their bilingual ability to some other language. If Irish was important to them, they would have prioritised it. They did not. That's a rejection. Stop fooling yourself.

deise go deo wrote: »

To what are you referring?

There have been examples of this sort of thing in Germany and South Africa. It ends badly. The Gaelic revival, from which most of official 'Irish' culture derives, is (arguably) comparable.

C&#250 wrote: »

If you believe people actually think like this, you are a very naive person.

There's plenty of examples in this thread where our lack of willingness to speak Irish is blamed on centuries of English oppression and where the Irish-speaking enthusiasts consider people here to be more 'Irish' if they have learned Irish as a second language and if they play Irish variants of international ball sports. You'll also find a theme of expectation that we will all speak Irish in the future.

Enkidu

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

There have been examples of this sort of thing in Germany and South Africa. It ends badly. The Gaelic revival, from which most of official 'Irish' culture derives, is (arguably) comparable.

May I ask, out of sheer curiosity, what are you referring to when you mention "this sort of thing in Germany"?