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Is Irish a dead language?
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »There's plenty of examples in this thread where our lack of willingness to speak Irish is blamed on centuries of English oppression and where the Irish-speaking enthusiasts consider people here to be more 'Irish' if they have learned Irish as a second language and if they play Irish variants of international ball sports. You'll also find a theme of expectation that we will all speak Irish in the future.
I'm not going to re-read the whole thread but I'm pretty sure the people who consider Irish speakers or GAA enthusiasts "more" Irish are far and few between.
The vast majority of people are actually saying people "don't" speak Irish for these reasons, not "are unwilling" to.
There is a very big difference.
My first language is English because of these "years of oppression" yet I am willing to speak Irish.
By the way "not having the ability" to do something doesn't necessarily mean one can't learn, it also means "not able to" and there are "quite a few" people living on this island who are not able to speak Irish.
As I said earlier you seem to have a problem with Irish speakers and have this fantasy that people are looking down on non-Irish speakers.
Do you have this attitude to all minority languages or is it just Irish??0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »So, you look down on non-Irish speakers as people of lesser ability? That, is of course assuming some did not apply their bilingual ability to some other language. If Irish was important to them, they would have prioritised it. They did not. That's a rejection. Stop fooling yourself.
No I dont, As said, only someone with their own agenda would interpret it that way. Unless you think everyone can speak Irish and chooses not to then your argument makes no sence, I cannot speak German, My lack of ability means I cannot chose to speak german even if I wanted to, This dosent mean I reject german.There have been examples of this sort of thing in Germany and South Africa. It ends badly. The Gaelic revival, from which most of official 'Irish' culture derives, is (arguably) comparable.
What are you refering to, Spit it out.There's plenty of examples in this thread where our lack of willingness to speak Irish is blamed on centuries of English oppression and where the Irish-speaking enthusiasts consider people here to be more 'Irish' if they have learned Irish as a second language and if they play Irish variants of international ball sports. You'll also find a theme of expectation that we will all speak Irish in the future.
Show me one quote of people makeing this claim. I never have, The only people bringing this up are those who are against Irish. :rolleyes:0 -
A little example of Anglo Saxon for you, parhaps the English should be campaigning to get this taught again.
Junder, you're not comparing like with like. Old English became what it is today. Language is a living thing that changes and morphs with peoples' usage.
Likewise, with Irish, there is old Irish and Irish used nowadays. By your reasoning we should argue that Old Irish be taught as a separate subject to modern Irish?
I suggest you watch a bit of TG4 (or even watch a programme 'as Gaeilge' on BBC NI) or listen to RnaG. Even though you most likely won't understand it you'll experience how a sizeable group communicate through Irish.0 -
Of course you could, if you wanted to. How is that you can speak Irish, a language as foreign to most of us as German - some kind of genetic memory?deise go deo wrote: »I cannot speak German, My lack of ability means I cannot chose to speak german even if I wanted to,
There was a nationalistic movement in Germany back in the 30's and 40's, it involved lots of dressing up and parading with big flags, heavy into Wagner and the operatic revival of the Teutonic legends. You had to have really good racial credentials and speak German really well to join. It all got a bit out of hand in the end.deise go deo wrote: »What are you refering to, Spit it out.
On page 112:deise go deo wrote: »Show me one quote of people makeing this claim. I never have, The only people bringing this up are those who are against Irish. :rolleyes:del_c wrote:"Irish is more 'Irish' Than English?"
Playing Irish music is a more Irish thing to do than playing any other kind of music - Agreed?
Playing an Irish game such as hurling is more Irish than playing a sport such as soccer - Agreed?
Speaking Irish is more Irish than speaking English.....this is not true then is it?
Then again, maybe he's an 'agent provacateur' trying to discredit the Gaelic cause..
If modern Irish is a not the Irish of one of our original cultures, if it's not spoken by the vast majority of the nation and if it does not make an Irish person more 'Irish', why do we spend so much money on making it compulsory? It's a harmless past-time that gives pleasure to some, let's leave at that.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »Of course you could, if you wanted to. How is that you can speak Irish, a language as foreign to most of us as German - some kind of genetic memory?
I learnt how, That I have not learnt German dose not mean I reject it dose it?
Just because people have not decided to learn Irish dose not mean they reject it.There was a nationalistic movement in Germany back in the 30's and 40's, it involved lots of dressing up and parading with big flags, heavy into Wagner and the operatic revival of the Teutonic legends. You had to have really good racial credentials and speak German really well to join. It all got a bit out of hand in the end.
Compare Irish to Nazism all you want, It just makes you look a fool.Then again, maybe he's an 'agent provacateur' trying to discredit the Gaelic cause..
Irish is a more Irish language than English, The very sentence structure suggests the fact.
Pointing that out is not the same as claiming to be more 'Irish' than people who dont speak Irish.If modern Irish is a not the Irish of one of our original cultures, if it's not spoken by the vast majority of the nation and if it does not make an Irish person more 'Irish', why do we spend so much money on making it compulsory? It's a harmless past-time that gives pleasure to some, let's leave at that.
Irish is directly linked to our Historical Culture. It is Unique to us as a people.
We spend money on it because people want it to survive and thrive, just because you don't dose not mean the majority don't.
I'll put it to you this way, Irish people have yet to take to the streets to demand change in this area so they must therefore reject change0 -
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I think the fact that this thread is still going after 3 months and almost 2000 posts is a pretty good indication that there's life in the old bird yet.0
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No it just means they don't want to speak it.deise go deo wrote: »I learnt how, That I have not learnt German dose not mean I reject it dose it?
Just because people have not decided to learn Irish dose not mean they reject it.
Then, I assume you agree that the promotion of Irish has nothing to do with reinforcing a particular version of our national identity and feelings of superiority over others?deise go deo wrote: »Compare Irish to Nazism all you want, It just makes you look a fool.
So, you think Irish is superior to English?deise go deo wrote: »Irish is a more Irish language than English,
Interesting use of capital letters. What about Scottish Gaelic...isn't that rather very similar to Irish? Scottish people are not Irish.deise go deo wrote: »Irish is directly linked to our Historical Culture. It is Unique to us as a people.
I've never said that I don't want it to survive. I am very happy for you to have a cultural hobby. But, I do think that considerable sums of public money are being wasted on it.deise go deo wrote: »We spend money on it because people want it to survive and thrive, just because you don't dose not mean the majority don't.
They've already had their say, it it was in not said in Irish. It's the sound of millions of Irish people holding conversations every day in English.deise go deo wrote: »I'll put it to you this way, Irish people have yet to take to the streets to demand change in this area so they must therefore reject change0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »No it just means they don't want to speak it.
What about people who do want to speak it but cant?
Personally I would love to speak Irish all the time but I am forced to speak English most of the time.Then, I assume you agree that the promotion of Irish has nothing to do with reinforcing a particular version of our national identity and feelings of superiority over others?
So, you think Irish is superior to English?
Is is to do with the support of what most Irish people consider to be Our language.
How can one language be 'Superior' to another. Who said Irish was 'Superior' to English? It is different to English, that dosent mean it is superior or inferior.
Promoating/speaking Irish has nothing to do with feelings of superiority over others? I never made any such claim. You seam to have some very negative feelings about the language and its speakers to keep pushing such negative sentiments on it.Interesting use of capital letters. What about Scottish Gaelic...isn't that rather very similar to Irish? Scottish people are not Irish.
No more than Danish is Similar to Norwegian.I've never said that I don't want it to survive. I am very happy for you to have a cultural hobby. But, I do think that considerable sums of money are being wasted on it.
What do you mean wasted on it? If people want it to be supported then surely it is not wasted money? I agree that the money could be used more effectively but I dont think money spent on promoting Irish is 'Wasted'They've already had their say, it it was in not said in Irish. It's the sound of millions of Irish people holding conversations every day in English.
I held several conversations today as Bearlá, Dose that mean I also reject Irish?0 -
Ah now!, come on man! The Gaelic revival was like Nazism? That's just silly, however much you disagree with it, it wasn't like Nazi Germany. Compare like with like. I seriously didn't expect a verification of Godwin's Law on an Irish language thread.cyclopath2001 wrote: »There was a nationalistic movement in Germany back in the 30's and 40's, it involved lots of dressing up and parading with big flags, heavy into Wagner and the operatic revival of the Teutonic legends. You had to have really good racial credentials and speak German really well to join. It all got a bit out of hand in the end.0 -
Just as well you didn't put your actual name to that. You'd have disgraced yourself!There was a nationalistic movement in Germany back in the 30's and 40's, it involved lots of dressing up and parading with big flags, heavy into Wagner and the operatic revival of the Teutonic legends. You had to have really good racial credentials and speak German really well to join. It all got a bit out of hand in the end.
If people were tortured and killed from not speaking Irish then yes there would be a comparison. That's not how it is. People only speak it because they see value in it and love it on both sides. Protestants have been key to Irish success. I'm an secularist and I love it. In fact, in the 1970s there was also a Belfast lodge called Oidhreacht Éireann (Ireland's Heritage) 1303, which argued that the Irish Language and Gaelic culture were not the exclusive property of Catholics or republicans.
So, I think you're mistaken in saying it's a superiority issue and a facist movement. Anus talk!0 -
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The Gaelic Revival was part of a political movement that used a false and exaggerated sense of national identity for political ends. In that sense it resembles Nazi propaganda.
Except in Christian Brothers schools? And the IRA, were they not bombing and shooting non-Irish speakers?If people were tortured and killed from not speaking Irish then yes there would be a comparison.
Indeed, and those who don't see the value, don't learn it or speak it. Your point about people of non-Gaelic lineage speaking Irish just demonstrates how synthetic and disconnected from any authenticity this new Irish-speaking identity is.That's not how it is. People only speak it because they see value in it and love it on both sides.
I'm glad to hear that this is not the case and that modern Irish has left behind its historical roots in the Gaelic revival and is now just an alternative language to use while living an essentially Anglo-Saxon lifestyle.So, I think you're mistaken in saying it's a superiority issue and a facist movement. Anus talk!0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »The Gaelic Revival was part of a political movement that used a false and exaggerated sense of national identity for political ends. In that sense it resembles Nazi propaganda.
Simply rubbish. It is not comparable at all, to make such a comparision is ofencive and to my mind ment to cause offence.:mad:Except in Christian Brothers schools? And the IRA, were they not bombing and shooting non-Irish speakers?
More taking stuff completely out of context to further your own agenda.
Was coporal punishment widely used in western Education systems at the time?
Were the IRA killing people for not speaking Irish?Indeed, and those who don't see the value, don't learn it or speak it. Your point about people of non-Gaelic lineage speaking Irish just demonstrates how synthetic and disconnected from any authenticity this new Irish-speaking identity is.
People from both traditions having an Intrest in Irish it makes Irish Disconected from authenticity? You have a very twisted view of our culture, Sounds like something someone in the rira would come out with, 'Prods speak Irish so its worthless':rolleyes:I'm glad to hear that this is not the case and that modern Irish has left behind its historical roots in the Gaelic revival and is now just an alternative language to use while living an essentially Anglo-Saxon lifestyle.
Surely if the majority of Irish people do it then it is the only authentic 'Irish'
lifestyle. What do you have against the Gaelic revival?0 -
Psychopath2001. I agree the Christian Brothers were terrible. But I don't see the connection between them and the Irish language. Like I said I'm secularist and love it. Protestants own it as much as any Catholic does. Anybody who chooses to take on Irish and speak it are welcome to it. Just like English.
If you're just saying what you're saying for a laugh you might try make some valid criticisms. You're pretty weak so far....:P0 -
I will acknowledge that the scale of wrong doing is quite different. It is comparable, but it challenges your deeply held beliefs. It's natural that you will feel offended.deise go deo wrote: »Simply rubbish. It is not comparable at all, to make such a comparision is ofencive and to my mind ment to cause offence.:mad:
I suggest that your understanding of Irish culture and what has been done in its name is incomplete. Are you being revisionist?deise go deo wrote: »Was coporal punishment widely used in western Education systems at the time?
Were the IRA killing people for not speaking Irish?
You have a strange view of what language is, if you think that it can survive disassociated from its history (good and bad) and isolated from its cultural context.deise go deo wrote: »makes Irish Disconected from authenticity? You have a very twisted view of our culture,
The majority of Irish people speak English.deise go deo wrote: »Surely if the majority of Irish people do it then it is the only authentic 'Irish'
What do you know of the 'Gaelic Revival'? Have you ever critically looked at the origins at what you think is the 'Irish identity'?0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »I will acknowledge that the scale of wrong doing is quite different. It is comparable, but it challenges your deeply held beliefs. It's natural that you will feel offended.
To compare the Gaelic revival to Nazism is nothing short of offensive and I would like you to apologizes, It is not comparable, in what way was the Gaelic revival 'Wrong doing'?I suggest that your understanding of Irish culture and what has been done in its name is incomplete. Are you being revisionist?
You can do what you like, I suggest you have a chip on your shoulder and will use any illogical offensive argument that pops into your head.You have a strange view of what language is, if you think that it can survive disassociated from its history (good and bad) and isolated from its cultural context.
In what way is the English language of today assoicated with the cultural context of the 16 hundreds?The majority of Irish people speak English.
What do you know of the 'Gaelic Revival'? Have you ever critically looked at the origins at what you think is the 'Irish identity'?
Yes you see I was pointing out that you are happy to contradict the logic of your arguments when it suits you.
So what have you based your conclusions on?0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »What do you know of the 'Gaelic Revival'? Have you ever critically looked at the origins at what you think is the 'Irish identity'?
How would you define the Irish identity and not include the Irish language then? I would be interested to hear that.
Consider please the fact that half the country spoke Irish up until 150 years ago i.e 3-4 generations. Add to this the presence of Irish our our place names, the majority of family names and many first names. Bear in mind what proportion of total Irish cultural output is through the medium of Irish (maybe a bit less than half?) and the fact that many thousands of people use the language and follow the Irish language media outlets every day.
If you maintain that this means Irish is not a central part of our identity, then there is no point discussing with you any more. The fact that that only 7% of Irish people surveyed declared that they would be in favour of discontinuing state support for Irish language promotion, leaves you part of a fairly insignificant share of the population in any case.
If you would concede that Irish is a part of our identity, then I can't understand why you would not want to spend money on it; surely the State has a role in enriching the cultural life of the nation. Most reasonable people would conclude that it does. (Ignoring the FACT that learning a second language is beneficial anyway for schoolchildren)0 -
How would you define the Irish identity and not include the Irish language then? I would be interested to hear that.
Isent it obvious, True Irish Identity comes from rejecting Irish because by his definition thats what the majority of Irish people do when they speak English,
That they say otherwise dosent matter as it dosent fit with his argument.:pac:0 -
You don't have to, look around you. There's a 99.99999% chance the next Irish person you see will speak english. Why not ask them to define their culture?How would you define the Irish identity and not include the Irish language then? I would be interested to hear that.
I'm skepticle that half the population spoke irish in 1860.Consider please the fact that half the country spoke Irish up until 150 years ago i.e 3-4 generations.
Not all place names though, Dublin, Wicklow and Wekford are all examples of places names not derived from Irish.Add to this the presence of Irish our our place names,
Again not all, you even admit yourself. What about people with non-Irish names? My first name is italian, am I less Irish because my name isn't derived from Irish?the majority of family names and many first names.
Nowhere near half. And even at that the number would be zero without government subsidies.Bear in mind what proportion of total Irish cultural output is through the medium of Irish (maybe a bit less than half?)
Many millions use the english language and follow the ?English language media outlets every day. How about we measure culture on proportionality?and the fact that many thousands of people use the language and follow the Irish language media outlets every day.
I don't think the Irish language is central to our identity. Am I not worth discussing with either? What about the thousands of others who no doubt hold the same opinions? Do you generally not talk to people you disagree with?If you maintain that this means Irish is not a central part of our identity, then there is no point discussing with you any more.
Do you have a source for that?The fact that that only 7% of Irish people surveyed declared that they would be in favour of discontinuing state support for Irish language promotion, leaves you part of a fairly insignificant share of the population in any case.If you would concede that Irish is a part of our identity, then I can't understand why you would not want to spend money on it; surely the State has a role in enriching the cultural life of the nation. Most reasonable people would conclude that it does. (Ignoring the FACT that learning a second language is beneficial anyway for schoolchildren)- I don't believe the Irisah language is central to Irish culture. Cultures change, deal with it.
- I don't want so much money spent on something with no use.
- Why not teach the, Chinese?
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Is irish a dead language
nil se;)0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »You don't have to, look around you. There's a 99.99999% chance the next Irish person you see will speak english. Why not ask them to define their culture?
You think there are only 5 Irish speakers on the Island?
Maths wasent your strong point at school was it?0 -
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I think a lot of you have twisted views on what is being aimed for with Irish. It's not about getting everyone speaking Irish and changing to country beyond recognition. It's about complementing our already enriched culture. It's not central to but certainly a massive chunk of this country's culture. I refer you back to the article from the BBC about benefits of bilingualism....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml0 -
The mission to force the Irish language upon the people has failed miserably over the last ninety years, people do not speak Irish on the streets, you cannot converse in Irish with leaving Cert students, you cannot converse in Irish with sixty year olds either, you just cannot converse in Irish with the bus driver, the shop keeper, or the check out girl in Tesco/Dunnes, so my question is this . . .
After the failure of the Irish syllabus over the last ninety years, how will it fair over the next ninety years?
"I am all for keeping Irish alive, but just not on a compulsory basis".0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »You don't have to, look around you. There's a 99.99999% chance the next Irish person you see will speak english. Why not ask them to define their culture?
If you speak to someone in Irish there is a fair chance they will respond in Irish.
I do that a lot and was quite surprised at the numbers when I started.Not all place names though, Dublin, Wicklow and Wekford are all examples of places names not derived from Irish.
An Linn Dubh. Dubh Linn/Black Pool..... IrishAgain not all, you even admit yourself. What about people with non-Irish names? My first name is italian, am I less Irish because my name isn't derived from Irish?
Not all, so what?? Who considers you less Irish because of your name??
The fact remains the majority of Irish people have names that come from Irish. The vast majority with Irish surnames.I don't think the Irish language is central to our identity.
It is a very important part of our identity, we actually speak Hiberno-English, English with many grammatical constructs based on Irish.I don't believe the Irisah language is central to Irish culture. Cultures change, deal with it.
Would you mind if Newgrange was demolished, The book of Kells recycled.
Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, the Irish language to a huge number of people of this land (even if they can't speak it) is important enough to warrant the effort put into it at an official level.
A few nay-sayers wont affect us.0 -
Actually I'm studying maths in colege and you forgot to factor in:deise go deo wrote: »You think there are only 5 Irish speakers on the Island?
Maths wasent your strong point at school was it?- Not everyone who speaks Irish will neccessarily be doing so when he looks around.
- Considering the vast majority of those Irish speakers live in the gaeltacht, unless he too lives in a gealtacht his chances of seeing someone speak Irish is severely diminished.
- There are about in total 150,000 native Irish speakers in this country. 150 thousand of 6.2 million is 2.4 percent, not 5.
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There is also a fair chance they will look at you like you had two heads and respond with a "wha...?". Especially If you happen to live in Dublin.Cú Giobach wrote: »If you speak to someone in Irish there is a fair chance they will respond in Irish.
I do that a lot and was quite surprised at the numbers when I started.
Ok, fair enough, I didn't know that.Cú Giobach wrote: »An Linn Dubh. Dubh Linn/Black Pool..... Irish
Yeah, a majority do, but some don't and you can't define the culture of the whole country based on the majority.Cú Giobach wrote: »Not all, so what?? Who considers you less Irish because of your name??
The fact remains the majority of Irish people have names that come from Irish. The vast majority with Irish surnames.
Incorrectly spoken english is not a language. And it definitly doesn't define us.Cú Giobach wrote: »It is a very important part of our identity, we actually speak Hiberno-English, English with many grammatical constructs based on Irish.
Of course I would, I'd be pissed off.Cú Giobach wrote: »Would you mind if Newgrange was demolished, The book of Kells recycled.
I don't agree. I don't think people do support the amount of time and money wasted on maintaining a relic with only artificial use.Cú Giobach wrote: »Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, the Irish language to a huge number of people of this land (even if they can't speak it) is important enough to warrant the effort put into it at an official level.
A few nay-sayers wont affect us.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Considering the vast majority of those Irish speakers live in the gaeltacht, unless he too lives in a gealtacht his chances of seeing someone speak Irish is severely diminished.
If you keep your ears open Irish can actually be heard more than you would think.
I hear it, not a lot, but occasionally in Cork city, and a bit more outside the city.
One of my favorite sights in recent years, was a very drunk fella arguing with a bouncer, outside a nightclub in Galway, as Gaeilge.There are about in total 150,000 native Irish speakers in this country. 150 thousand of 6.2 million is 2.4 percent, not 5.
Don't be forgetting us non native speakers, we are quite numerous.0 -
Ok, well I've only ever heard it once in Monaghan and never in Dublin.Cú Giobach wrote: »If you keep your ears open Irish can actually be heard more than you would think.
I hear it, not a lot, but occasionally in Cork city, and a bit more outside the city.
Actually I would have liked to see that. :pac:Cú Giobach wrote: »One of my favorite sights in recent years, was a very drunk fella arguing with a bouncer, outside a nightclub in Galway, as Gaeilge.
I was lumping them into the 150,000.Cú Giobach wrote: »Don't be forgetting us non native speakers, we are quite numerous.0 -
The syllabus question still remains though . . . . .
Will it take another ninety years for the Irish language to be revived to the level of say Danish, Swedish, or whatever, wherby everbody can speak the language fluently? even to get it to the level of Welsh would be a massive leap forward.
(currently the Irish language is just a cultural box to be ticked).0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »There is also a fair chance they will look at you like you had two heads and respond with a "wha...?". Especially If you happen to live in Dublin.
Dublin is not Ireland.
The usual response is "sorry? Oh, I don't speak Irish" and sometimes then answer the question because they actually understood what was said.Yeah, a majority do, but some don't and you can't define the culture of the whole country based on the majority.
Nor can you dismiss something just because it does not apply to every single person on the Island.Incorrectly spoken english is not a language. And it definitly doesn't define us.
Hiberno-English is an official dialect of English that is spoken by the majority on this Island.
And it does make our speech and (because we think in language) our thought patterns, unique.I don't agree. I don't think people do support the amount of time and money wasted on maintaining a relic with only artificial use.
Are those native speakers some sort of artificial life form??
As I said there are enough people in this land who wouldn't agree with you, to make the effort worthwhile.0 -
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The syllabus question still remains though . . . . .
Will it take another ninety years for the Irish language to be revived to the level of say Danish, Swedish, or whatever, wherby everbody can speak the language fluently? even to get it to the level of Welsh would be a massive leap forward.
(currently the Irish language is just a cultural box to be ticked).
Irish will never (imo) be the main language of this island, but with a bit of common sense regarding the future teaching (ie, concentrating on speaking), and the dying out of the "Dev's Ireland" image of the language (which has changed a lot already, at least since I was a kid), enough people will speak it, to keep it alive and well.
Usage outside the Gaeltachts is already increasing.0
This discussion has been closed.
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