Is Irish a dead language?

del_c · 08-10-2010 12:55pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You don't have to, look around you. There's a 99.99999% chance the next Irish person you see will speak english. Why not ask them to define their culture?

Let me see 4,000,000 Population 99,99999% chance....working out at one person in the country talking Irish 40% of the time. I'll take those odds!

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm skepticle that half the population spoke irish in 1860.

Fair enough, you won't mind if I correct by statement back to 1840 then.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not all place names though, Dublin, Wicklow and Wekford are all examples of places names not derived from Irish.

Dublin = Dubh linn = Blackpool....but beside the point. I come from Leixlip, a Danish name....I never claimed ALL placenames were derived from Gaeilge.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Again not all, you even admit yourself. What about people with non-Irish names? My first name is italian, am I less Irish because my name isn't derived from Irish?

Becasue I would maintain, that if a very large proportion of the country has its roots in something, then this something is a part of our identity. This should be straightforward enough to grasp. Becase I would value other traditions and ethnicities doesn't mean I then have to reject my own. A very large proportion of the Irish population is derived from an orange tradition, doesn't make them less Irish....

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nowhere near half. And even at that the number would be zero without government subsidies.

Finding the whole mathematical side of this argument a bit of a struggle are we? Even if we stopped producing Irish cultural now for ever more, then a considerable proportion of our total historial cultural output as a nation would still be as Gaeilge. Or should we burn all existing manuscripts of Irish language literature, having translated it into English, or maybe Chinese?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Many millions use the english language and follow the ?English language media outlets every day. How about we measure culture on proportionality?

How about we don't and we value and take pride in our unique culture instead.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't think the Irish language is central to our identity. Am I not worth discussing with either? What about the thousands of others who no doubt hold the same opinions? Do you generally not talk to people you disagree with?

Well, when I see posters comparing Irish language revival efforts to Nazism, then I would tend to think it beter to just agree to disagree. I will not accept the argument that the Irish language is not a part of our identity, I believe it, in fact, to be a ludicrous contention. This makes debate on the status and future of the language among both of use, somewhat futile. The fact that your views are held by only 6% of the people / taxpayers on this island makes me feel I don't really have to.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you have a source for that?

Yes, the articles which kicked the debate off:
"Research done by an tAthair Micheál Mac Gréil from NUI Maynooth suggests that people in Ireland have precisely the amount of Irish they want. His findings show a striking similarity between the level of Irish spoken by people and their long-term desires for the language.
For example, 8% say they are fluent in Irish, and 8.4% say they want Irish to be the main spoken language of the country. 33.7% say they have a “middling” or “not so fluent” amount of Irish, and 33% say they want Irish to be revived, but with English remaining as the main language of the country.
The remaining 58% say they have little or no Irish, with 52% wanting Irish preserved in the Gaeltacht and for cultural reasons and 6% wanting to abandon the language completely."

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't believe the Irish language is central to Irish culture. Cultures change, deal with it.
I don't want so much money spent on something with no use.

This puts you in the 6% category then...good for you.

Iwasfrozen · 08-10-2010 3:16pm

del_c wrote: »

Let me see 4,000,000 Population 99,99999% chance....working out at one person in the country talking Irish 40% of the time. I'll take those odds!

ok... Not very showing of a healthy language though, is it?

del_c wrote: »

Dublin = Dubh linn = Blackpool....but beside the point. I come from Leixlip, a Danish name....I never claimed ALL placenames were derived from Gaeilge.

But you claimed Irish was a part of our culture because placenames derived from Irish. Taking from that I can assume that the Irish language is not part of the culture of those from places with names not derived from Irish?

del_c wrote: »

Becasue I would maintain, that if a very large proportion of the country has its roots in something, then this something is a part of our identity. This should be straightforward enough to grasp. Becase I would value other traditions and ethnicities doesn't mean I then have to reject my own. A very large proportion of the Irish population is derived from an orange tradition, doesn't make them less Irish....

There's this our again. You claim to value other traditions and ethnicities but then you claim your identity is our identity. I'm sorry but I don't share the same views as you, so there is no "our".

del_c wrote: »

Finding the whole mathematical side of this argument a bit of a struggle are we?

No, why?

del_c wrote: »

Even if we stopped producing Irish cultural now for ever more, then a considerable proportion of our total historial cultural output as a nation would still be as Gaeilge.

Ok, but that has zero relevence to the present and future.

del_c wrote: »

Or should we burn all existing manuscripts of Irish language literature, having translated it into English, or maybe Chinese?

No, that would be pointless.

del_c wrote: »

How about we don't and we value and take pride in our unique culture instead.

You're doing it again. Irish is not my language, like most people I don't speak it.

del_c wrote: »

I will not accept the argument that the Irish language is not a part of our identity, I believe it, in fact, to be a ludicrous contention. This makes debate on the status and future of the language among both of use, somewhat futile. The fact that your views are held by only 6% of the people / taxpayers on this island makes me feel I don't really have to.

Do you know what my views are?

del_c wrote: »

"Research done by an tAthair Micheál Mac Gréil from NUI Maynooth suggests that people in Ireland have precisely the amount of Irish they want. His findings show a striking similarity between the level of Irish spoken by people and their long-term desires for the language.
For example, 8% say they are fluent in Irish, and 8.4% say they want Irish to be the main spoken language of the country. 33.7% say they have a “middling” or “not so fluent” amount of Irish, and 33% say they want Irish to be revived, but with English remaining as the main language of the country.
The remaining 58% say they have little or no Irish, with 52% wanting Irish preserved in the Gaeltacht and for cultural reasons and 6% wanting to abandon the language completely."

What? Those numbers don't add up...

del_c · 08-10-2010 4:04pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What? Those numbers don't add up...

Which numbers?
For example, 8% say they are fluent in Irish= 8.4% say they want Irish to be the main spoken language of the country

33.7% say they have a “middling” or “not so fluent” amount of Irish roughly= 33% say they want Irish to be revived, but with English remaining as the main language of the country

The remaining 58% say they have little or no Irish = 52% wanting Irish preserved in the Gaeltacht and for cultural reasons + 6% wanting to abandon the language completely.
= 100% Accounting for rounding

The survey is shows nicely the correlation between people's views on the language and their ability to speak it.
Be better not to question numbers, if you're not capable of basic arithmetic

Anyone who would say that, a considerable proportion of our total historial cultural output as a nation "has zero relevence to the present and future", is by definition a philistine, with no grasp of the relevance of culture in the first place.

So I wouldn't expect you to follow the rest of the points made anyway....which you have neatly demonstrated.

"I don't want so much money spent on something with no use"....so culture has no use? If you consider yourself Irish, then this cultural output is part of your culture.

cyclopath2001 · 08-10-2010 6:22pm

del_c wrote: »

Becase I would value other traditions and ethnicities doesn't mean I then have to reject my own.

Straw-man argument - Nobody has said you should.

del_c wrote: »

Or should we burn all existing manuscripts of Irish language literature, having translated it into English, or maybe Chinese?

More straw men - nobody has even hinted at this either.

del_c wrote: »

Well, when I see posters comparing Irish language revival efforts to Nazism, then I would tend to think it better to just agree to disagree.

And to ignore the lessons of the past? Why not critically review the 'Gaelic Revival' movement, afraid you might learn some uncomfortable truths?

del_c wrote: »

The fact that your views are held by only 6% of the people / taxpayers on this island makes me feel I don't really have to.....Yes, the articles which kicked the debate off:"Research done by an tAthair Micheál Mac Gréil from NUI Maynooth suggests...

Who funded that research? I seem to recall that this was quoted in other threads and we eventually discovered that it had no official standing and was paid for by the Irish language lobby. The public were not asked in the survey, if they agreed to large, unspecific, amounts of money being spent. It was warmly welcomed by the Minister for the Gaeltacht....naturally.

Did the research ask people why they did not speak Irish in their daily lives and when they intended to start?

caseyann · 08-10-2010 7:00pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is also a fair chance they will look at you like you had two heads and respond with a "wha...?". Especially If you happen to live in Dublin.

Yeah em if you speak to someone who isnt Irish they i am sure will wha? you

Most Irish people with balls will speak back as much as they can.So
only speak for yourself in that anology thanks

I can walk into any shop and say dia dhuit,conas atá tú,Lá deas go bréa amach innu and i will get smiles and answer in Irish.All over Dublin and the rest of Ireland.
Try it out might teach you a thing or two.Oh wait but that would be polite,something people think is dead here so if they dont make the first move neither will others.

I remember a good few times and recently also.People speaking to me on street in city center in Irish was really nice to hear

cyclopath2001 · 08-10-2010 9:28pm

caseyann wrote: »

I can walk into any shop and say dia dhuit,conas atá tú,Lá deas go bréa amach innu and i will get smiles and answer in Irish.All over Dublin and the rest of Ireland

That's just few phrases and anecdotes. Just a bit of cultural fun, not the dawn of a new Gaelic-speaking golden age.

Let's get serious - How many privately run/financed daily Irish newspapers are there? Any radio or TV stations operating without state funding? That would be a good measure of the vitality of the language. If it is thriving enough to support media paid for by its practitioners.

caseyann · 08-10-2010 9:33pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's just few phrases and anecdotes. Just a bit of cultural fun, not the dawn of a new Gaelic-speaking golden age.

Let's get serious - How many privately run/financed daily Irish newspapers are there? Any radio or TV stations operating without any state funding? That would be a good measure of the vitality of the language. If it is thriving enough to support media paid for by its practitioners.

And your reasoning is exactly? The conversation continues in Irish(Meaning you open the door speak it more and people dont feel like they cant speak their own langauge) And if anyone comes and tells me English is our language i will fecking scream) So just dont even do it :mad:.You have a few few phrases and anecdotes and cultural fun.Ever hear of the groups of kids who meet up after school and have Irish sessions in their homes or in the coffee shops? Yes they do happen aswell.
Any schools abroad have state funding for their native language to be taught in school along with languages that is not theirs?
Hm let us think yes :eek:

cyclopath2001 · 08-10-2010 9:41pm

caseyann wrote: »

And your reasoning is exactly?

You're exaggerating the amount of Irish that is spoken on a daily basis. This is a common ploy to secure more funding.

caseyann wrote: »

if anyone comes and tells me English is our language i will fecking scream) So just dont even do it :mad:.

Why is that? Are you not comfortable with the English part of Ireland's cultural character? It's part of what we are.

caseyann wrote: »

Any schools abroad have state funding for their native language to be taught in school along with languages that is not theirs?

The question I put was about newspapers, radio and TV 100% funded by the Irish language community.

caseyann · 08-10-2010 9:46pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You're exaggerating the amount of Irish that is spoken on a daily basis. This is a common ploy to secure more funding.

Why is that? Are you not comfortable with the English part of Ireland's cultural character? It's part of what we are.

The question I put was about newspapers, radio and TV 100% funded by the Irish language community.

I am not exaggerating

It is not native tongue of mine or any of my family,Nothing cultural about it in my Irish heritage barr the obvious of oppression and death.
So stop trying to make like it is something good to have happened to Ireland as it is not.Not a apart of whom i am.So please speak for yourself. English language did not build me to whom i am today,love of Irish history and language and country and family is what built and what is apart of me

No i answered all native tongues spoken in every country along with assigned second language and news papers tv stations rah rah is funded by state

Cú Giobach · 08-10-2010 9:47pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's just few phrases and anecdotes. Just a bit of cultural fun, not the dawn of a new Gaelic-speaking golden age.

Let's get serious - How many privately run/financed daily Irish newspapers are there? Any radio or TV stations operating without state funding? That would be a good measure of the vitality of the language. If it is thriving enough to support media paid for by its practitioners.

Look, whether or not they speak it or want to speak it, the fact remains the majority of Irish people do not want the language to die and support efforts to keep it going.
You're incessant ramblings referring to the fact it will never be the majority language of the Island are utterly irrelevant, and getting quite tedious.
So what if the majority speak English?? So what if it will always be the majority language??
Irish use outside Gaeltachts is increasing and the majority of the population want to see the language survive.
It is the native language of many on the Island, thereby it has a special status that should be respected.

cyclopath2001 · 08-10-2010 10:31pm

caseyann wrote:

It is not native tongue of mine or any of my family,Nothing cultural about it in my Irish heritage barr the obvious of oppression and death.
So stop trying to make like it is something good to have happened to Ireland as it is not.Not a apart of whom i am.So please speak for yourself. English language did not build me to whom i am today,love of Irish history and language and country and family is what built and what is apart of me

Nobody denies the abuses of the English regime. But we should also acknowledge its benefits. Every coin has two sides. Yet, you love Irish history, including it's many, many atrocities and human rights abuses but you have a completely negative view of our English heritage. If you are truly representative of the Irish-speaking community, it's understandable why so many Irish people don't want to be associated with you and refuse to speak your language.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Look, whether or not they speak it or want to speak it, the fact remains the majority of Irish people do not want the language to die and support efforts to keep it going.... it has a special status that should be respected.

I think everyone in Ireland including myself will, as a matter of politeness, give respect to Irish speakers, but not money.

Now, instead of measuring the vitality of Irish in anecdotal terms, let's measure it in terms of TV, Radio and newspapers?

Cú Giobach · 08-10-2010 10:37pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Now, instead of measuring the vitality of Irish in anecdotal terms, let's measure it in terms of TV, Radio and newspapers?

I hate giving Wiki links but check This out for a start.

metrovelvet · 08-10-2010 10:37pm

If Irish were the national language the immigrants wouldn't all be trying to learn English.

Why do you need Irish to NOT feel British. I speak English like other Americans and we dont feel British. And we are also post colonial.

caseyann · 08-10-2010 10:52pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Nobody denies the abuses of the English regime. But we should also acknowledge its benefits. Every coin has two sides. Yet, you love Irish history, including it's many, many atrocities and human rights abuses but you have a completely negative view of our English heritage. If you are truly representative of the Irish-speaking community, it's understandable why so many Irish people don't want to be associated with you and refuse to speak your language.

I think everyone in Ireland including myself will, as a matter of politeness, give respect to Irish speakers, but not money.

Now, instead of measuring the vitality of Irish in anecdotal terms, let's measure it in terms of TV, Radio and newspapers?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/26544868/The-Irish-Conflict-and-Its-Origins

Lost your way eh

caseyann · 08-10-2010 10:55pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

If Irish were the national language the immigrants wouldn't all be trying to learn English.

Why do you need Irish to NOT feel British. I speak English like other Americans and we dont feel British. And we are also post colonial.

Why is it when people champion Irish over English language someone always comes up with something like this? Cant champion and love our native tongue and encourage it?
I dont get what peoples problems are when i say my native tongue is not English and not native tongue of Irish people either.When its the truth.

metrovelvet · 08-10-2010 10:59pm

caseyann wrote: »

Why is it when people champion Irish over English language someone always comes up with something like this? Cant champion and love our native tongue and encourage it?
I dont get what peoples problems are when i say my native tongue is not English and not native tongue of Irish people either.When its the truth.

If you have to learn a language in school it is not your native tongue.

Cú Giobach · 08-10-2010 11:00pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

If Irish were the national language the immigrants wouldn't all be trying to learn English.

Why do you need Irish to NOT feel British. I speak English like other Americans and we dont feel British. And we are also post colonial.

Irish is the native language of many people and the chosen language of many others therefore it is one of the national languages of Ireland.
Some immigrants especially in the west are learning Irish.

I don't know who you are referring to with the statement about Britishness, I hope it's not learners or users of Irish in general.
Not many Irish people who are interested in speaking Irish feel even remotely British, and certainly don't have any insecurities that way.

caseyann · 08-10-2010 11:00pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

If you have to learn a language in school it is not your native tongue.

Ah so you dont learn how to speak and read and write nor does any other country in world? :rolleyes:

p.s my first words were in Irish and i spoke Irish all day everyday through school and life

metrovelvet · 08-10-2010 11:02pm

caseyann wrote: »

Ah so you dont learn how to speak and read and write nor does any other country in world? :rolleyes:

I was fluent and literate in English before I started school. Most people I know were fluent in English before they started school. My three year old knows English, not perfectly but pretty good so far. He does not know one word of Irish. He knows more French than he does Irish come to think of it.

caseyann · 08-10-2010 11:05pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

I was fluent and literate in English before I started school. Most people I know were fluent in English before they started school. My three year old knows English, not perfectly but pretty good so far. He does not know one word of Irish. He knows more French than he does Irish come to think of it.

Whos fault is that? yours ?

Everyone i went to school with spoke Irish and first words were Irish in home and outside and in school.

metrovelvet · 08-10-2010 11:06pm

caseyann wrote: »

Whos fault is that? yours ?

I don't think its a fault because there is nothing wrong with that in the first place.

metrovelvet · 08-10-2010 11:07pm

caseyann wrote: »

Whos fault is that? yours ?
Everyone i went to school with spoke Irish and first words were Irish in home and outside and in school.

You were obviously in one of those Gael places. Most of the country isnt. Come to think of it you had an unfair advantage and the non Gael inhabitants should have received an extra percentage on their leaving for the innate disadvantage they are at.

seabre · 08-10-2010 11:09pm

Is Irish a dead language?

Hmm considering the Irish Governments tendancy to sink money into "dead causes" - the fact that the only struggling businesses out there to get any financial aid in the form of grants etc, are businesses in the Gaeltacht areas or links to Irish langauge in some form or another - I would take this as a good indication that the language is actually dead! - LOL

Joking aside I think its admirable and "nice" to know the Irish language but believe it to be no more or less important or necessary than this.

Cú Giobach · 08-10-2010 11:11pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

You were obviously in one of those Gael places. Most of the country isnt. Come to think of it you had an unfair advantage and the non Gael inhabitants should have received an extra percentage on their leaving for the innate disadvantage they are at.

They are called Gaelscoileanna, and they are having to turn people away so great is the demand.

caseyann · 08-10-2010 11:12pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

You were obviously in one of those Gael places. Most of the country isnt. Come to think of it you had an unfair advantage and the non Gael inhabitants should have received an extra percentage on their leaving for the innate disadvantage they are at.

No i was born and reared in Dublin south,grandad spoke Irish fluent to me from baby and so did my father and my mother and sent to all gael scoil. And blessed to have had the option thanks to the government funding.Which removed from the future generations over a forced language which is not of ours is yet again oppression,As i said before British knew what they were doing they did a good number on this country.

metrovelvet · 08-10-2010 11:13pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

They are called Gaelscoileanna, and they are having to turn people away so great is the demand.

No not the gaelschools, the gael plantations/reservations, whatever they are called. I think thats what caseyann was talking about.

metrovelvet · 08-10-2010 11:15pm

caseyann wrote: »

No i was born and reared in Dublin south,grandad spoke Irish fluent to me from baby and so did my father and my mother and sent to all gael scoil. And blessed to have had the option thanks to the government funding.Which removed from the future generations over a forced language which is not of ours is yet again oppression,As i said before British knew what they were doing they did a good number on this country.

So now you are trying to force everyone else to learn it?

caseyann · 08-10-2010 11:15pm

seabre wrote: »

Is Irish a dead language?

Hmm considering the Irish Governments tendancy to sink money into "dead causes" - the fact that the only struggling businesses out there to get any financial aid in the form of grants etc, are businesses in the Gaeltacht areas or links to Irish langauge in some form or another - I would take this as a good indication that the language is actually dead! - LOL

Joking aside I think its admirable and "nice" to know the Irish language but believe it to be no more or less important or necessary than this.

Which is the foundation of the problem,the lacking in enthusiasm of some people to make the effort to.And it should be made more necessary.
I have a nice idea open all speaking Irish bars and cafes.Or encourage it in work with staff one day in week all Irish day and in primary schools.
Irish heritage days.Funny i do believe they have international day :rolleyes:

caseyann · 08-10-2010 11:16pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

So now you are trying to force everyone else to learn it?

Might be a good idea ban English like the English did to Irish;)

metrovelvet · 08-10-2010 11:18pm

caseyann wrote: »

Might be a good idea ban English like the English did to Irish;)

Go ahead. The country will die. You can cause another famine too while you are at it.

Is Irish a dead language?

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