Is Irish a dead language?

Cú Giobach

paky wrote: »

wow funny i never heard those greetings on the news b4?

and whats with the hmm..? is it too difficult for you understand me or are you just one of those fanatics who cant bare the thought of people who dare question the irish language?

No it was because the fact there is more than one way to say something is pretty obvious to anybody who can speak.
It had nothing to do with Irish, Imagine if you said the same thing regarding English, I guarantee the responses you would get would be a bit more than just the rolling eyes.

The examples were to show a point.

Now I'm giving this :rolleyes: for the word fanatic.

Cú Giobach

paky wrote: »

you should stop living in your bubble if you think thats a crazy belief.

Ah. the naivety.

Gloomtastic!

For the 2012 census why don't they pose the 'Do you speak Irish?' question as gaeilge. That will hopefully stump the bull****ters.

My daughter's school report in the summer marked her on three subjects - English, Maths and Irish. She got 97%, 100% and 50% respectively. As she was in Senior Infants that to me suggests the teaching is at fault, just like it was when I was in school. :mad:

cyclopath2001

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

For the 2012 census why don't they pose the 'Do you speak Irish?' question as gaeilge. That will hopefully stump the bull****ters.

Or offer two different census forms. One completely in English, the other in Irish.

Someone who chooses and completes all of the Irish form might be considered an 'Irish-speaker'.

paky

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Ah. the naivety.

irish is a waste of time for the majority of students. i went to a gaelscoil and meanscoil and did my leaving through irish. i spent a year in college studying it and then left college and have not used it since. that just goes to show how useful the language is to an everyday person. yet the governemnt insists students who are not even in a meanscoil spend hours learning it every week when there going to have absolutely no use for it whatsoever!
its a crazy system, its absolutely unjustified!

paky

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or offer two different census forms. One completely in English, the other in Irish.

Someone who chooses and completes all of the Irish form might be considered an 'Irish-speaker'.

thats a good idea

CoalBucket

I can't believe this thread is still running :eek:

Cú Giobach

paky wrote: »

irish is a waste of time for the majority of students. i went to a gaelscoil and meanscoil and did my leaving through irish. i spent a year in college studying it and then left college and have not used it since. that just goes to show how useful the language is to an everyday person. yet the governemnt insists students who are not even in a meanscoil spend hours learning it every week when there going to have absolutely no use for it whatsoever!
its a crazy system, its absolutely unjustified!

I left school many years ago and have used only a fraction of what I learned in any subject, and then mostly for my hobbies. Most of life's learning is done outside school. (I'm not slating school by the way).
A lot learned in school isn't going to be any use, but nobody knows at that stage what will be useful or important to them till much later. If I had a choice at the time I would never have learned Irish (I failed all my exams in it) something I would now regret.
I believe Irish should be taught as a compulsory subject (like history, geography etc) up to group cert, then as a choice.
It also needs a change in the teaching method, in language learning, writing and reading shouldn't be attempted until a basic level of speaking skills have been obtained.

BTW: The census form is available in Irish, I can't remember though if its one side English the other Irish or a separate form.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

BTW: The census form is available in Irish, I can't remember though if its one side English the other Irish or a separate form.

I think it's a separate form, but I have not yet found out if there are statistics for how many Irish-language versions were completed. This would a very useful metric in measuring the vitality of Irish and much more reliable than the data obtained from the English-language questions.

NewHillel

CoalBucket wrote: »

I can't believe this thread is still running :eek:

Just found it, I'm only on boards now and again.

I don't believe that Irish is dead but, if my daughters experience is anything to go by, it is dying!

Two sessions in the Kerry Gaeltacht were a joke, learn't a lot, but not Irish. (The honorable exception was a residential college in Killarney, can't remember the name.)

She then went to a meanscoil, at her own wish, and did her leaving through Irish. (Our own Irish is very poor, a residue of our educational system. However we have actively encouraged an interest in, and love of, our heritage.) It would appear that, in the MeanScoil, the Irish Language was more of a covert selection mechanism, rather than a love for, and commitment to, the language or culture. Indeed, many of the teachers were unable, or unwilling, to converse in Irish - to the extent of responding "as Bearla" when addressed in Irish.

Thankfully, she still loves Irish and did extremely well in her Leaving Cert. For some subjects this meant writing her own subject notes in Irish and getting family members, alas not I, to look them over. Hopefully, enthusiastic young people like her will keep the language and culture alive.

metrovelvet

Hard core porn ash gale ga would do it a world of good.

Grudaire

CoalBucket wrote: »

I can't believe this thread is still running :eek:

Ceapaim go raibh sé curtha faoi ghlas cúpla uair!

I think it's been locked a few times!

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Hard core porn ash gale ga would do it a world of good.

Are you just trying to be annoying?

If you have a real point to make, make it, I dont see why you have to put up rubbish pointless comments like that

del_c

Originally Posted by del_c
Becase I would value other traditions and ethnicities doesn't mean I then have to reject my own.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Straw-man argument - Nobody has said you should.

Iwasfrozen stated that he doesn't have any connection to Irish, therefore it is not part of his culture and identity.

But, if Iwasfrozen says he likes Coronation St, and I say I like Ros na Rún, and we both claim an Irish identity, then we would both have to concede that both shows were a part of modern Irish culture and identity, irrespective of how we personally felt about them.


Originally Posted by del_c
Or should we burn all existing manuscripts of Irish language literature, having translated it into English, or maybe Chinese?
.[/QUOTE]

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

More straw men - nobody has even hinted at this either.

Again, this is in response to Iwasfrozen stating that if taxpayers funding was cut out then the share of irish language material in Irish cultural output would be ZERO. As cultural output is, by definition all in the past, the only way to achieve this would be to destroy our Irish language cultural legacy. If you accept that culture is represented by cultural output, and that culture contributes to a sense of identity, then the Irish language is a part of your current identity. Why don't you go onto www.boards.it and start a discussion that Leonardo da Vinci (died 1519) is not relevant to the Italian culture and sense of identity....don't be surprised if the head of a large equine with a mane appears on your pillow in the morning....Yet you would deny the position of Irish in the modern Irish identity even though it was spoken in my family up until 100 years ago..


Originally Posted by del_c
Well, when I see posters comparing Irish language revival efforts to Nazism, then I would tend to think it better to just agree to disagree.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

And to ignore the lessons of the past? Why not critically review the 'Gaelic Revival' movement, afraid you might learn some uncomfortable truths?.

I would be fascinated to hear your examples of this. The only fascist posts i read in this discussion were from you, when you claimed the old Gaelic / Irish civilisation had failed, and therefore it was natural that the "stronger" english speaking civilisation should take over and we shoud accept the loss of our language, it having proved inferior to that of the anglo saxon master race, through us being such a pushover.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Who funded that research? I seem to recall that this was quoted in other threads and we eventually discovered that it had no official standing and was paid for by the Irish language lobby. The public were not asked in the survey, if they agreed to large, unspecific, amounts of money being spent. It was warmly welcomed by the Minister for the Gaeltacht....naturally.

Did the research ask people why they did not speak Irish in their daily lives and when they intended to start?

I was asked for figures and research by Iwasfrozen, (even though he/she didn't understand them after anyway) and I brought them to the table. Bring your own research to counter them then. Easy to take a cheap shot.

Iwasfrozen

del_c wrote: »

I was asked for figures and research by Iwasfrozen, (even though he/she didn't understand them after anyway) and I brought them to the table. Bring your own research to counter them then. Easy to take a cheap shot.

Cheap shot from someone who didn't present his own figures in an understandable way. I'm not going to even bother responding to the rest because tbh I'm sick of this topic.

del_c

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Cheap shot from someone who didn't present his own figures in an understandable way. I'm not going to even bother responding to the rest because tbh I'm sick of this topic.

They're not my figures, I read them, understood them and copied and pasted them in.

metrovelvet

deise go deo wrote: »

Are you just trying to be annoying?

If you have a real point to make, make it, I dont see why you have to put up rubbish pointless comments like that

Its not pointless. Why dont IRish speakers create things people are interested in? Not Ros na bore me to tears and hire in a director from the BBC. LOL.

Its pathetic.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its not pointless. Why dont IRish speakers create things people are interested in? Not Ros na bore me to tears and hire in a director from the BBC. LOL.

Its pathetic.

So you not liking something makes it worthless?
Have you ever even watched an episode of Ros na Rún?

Your point was completely irrelevant and basically vulgar, I don't see why you need to spout rubbish like that, If you don't like Irish thats fine, but I don't see why you feel the need to be so disrespectful.

Ald

Its not pointless. Why dont IRish speakers create things people are interested in? Not Ros na bore me to tears and hire in a director from the BBC. LOL.

Its pathetic.

Not a bad idea. I'm sure there are some Irish speaking directors with the BBC and the content on TG4 could do with a bit of a shake up. There should be a good balance between tweed jumpers and modern hard hitting documentaries in my opinion. Although, some of their programmes are excellent.

Good criticism!

metrovelvet

deise go deo wrote: »

So you not liking something makes it worthless?
Have you ever even watched an episode of Ros na Rún?

Your point was completely irrelevant and basically vulgar, I don't see why you need to spout rubbish like that, If you don't like Irish thats fine, but I don't see why you feel the need to be so disrespectful.

What? Is Irish some holy language? Did I take its name in vain?

Porn is available in every language but Irish. What that says to me is that it really hasnt hit the democratic masses. That you want to stay hi falutan and elitist and write poetry and die your hair fashionable colours on tna G. Oh excuse me tg 4. You make Ros Na Run but you hire a BBC director who doesnt speak or understand Irish, and I know this because I met him.

When I see porn in Irish I know its a real living language. Until then it goes in the pile with ancient Greek, mespotamean and Latin.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

What? Is Irish some holy language? Did I take its name in vain?

No but bringing up hard core porn in a political debate is disrespectful.

Porn is available in every language but Irish.

-No its not
-So what
-are you sure there is no porn in Irish anywhere?

What that says to me is that it really hasnt hit the democratic masses. That you want to stay hi falutan and elitist and write poetry and die your hair fashionable colours on tna G. Oh excuse me tg 4. You make Ros Na Run but you hire a BBC director who doesnt speak or understand Irish, and I know this because I met him.

What has the Director of Ros na Rún got to do with anything?
What is so hi falutan about wanting to stick to relevant points in a political debate?
I dont make ros na rún, I dont have any die in my hair, and I have never written one verse of poetry, have you any more stupid stereotypes you want to throw around while you are at it?

When I see porn in Irish I know its a real living language. Until then it goes in the pile with ancient Greek, mespotamean and Latin.

What utter tripe, Thats your basis for deciding if a language is 'A real living language'?
Dosent say much for the validity of your opinions if you ask me.:pac:

Gloomtastic!

Porn as gaeilge? It'll never happen, gaelgoers don't like sex, that's why irish is a dying language!

Cú Giobach

metrovelvet wrote: »

When I see porn in Irish I know its a real living language. Until then it goes in the pile with ancient Greek, mespotamean and Latin.

I can imagine one of your priorities when you are searching for porn, is to find some in Irish,

Since there is an unbroken chain of speakers going back into the mists of time of the language that is now called Irish and it is still spoken as a native language in this country, the statement "Irish is a dead language" is incorrect, this is a fact.

To people who dislike Irish because of how it is taught:
Many people can have a bad experience with something and consequently develop a dislike for it, but it shows a lack of intellectual reasoning to imagine this thing is inherently bad, just because of a dislike based on a learned negative association.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Since there is an unbroken chain of speakers going back into the mists of time of the language that is now called Irish and it is still spoken as a native language in this country, the statement "Irish is a dead language" is incorrect, this is a fact.

Alive, or on artificial life support?

Would it survive & thrive if it had to fund itself only from voluntary contributions?

metrovelvet

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I can imagine one of your priorities when you are searching for porn, is to find some in Irish,

Since there is an unbroken chain of speakers going back into the mists of time of the language that is now called Irish and it is still spoken as a native language in this country, the statement "Irish is a dead language" is incorrect, this is a fact.

To people who dislike Irish because of how it is taught:
Many people can have a bad experience with something and consequently develop a dislike for it, but it shows a lack of intellectual reasoning to imagine this thing is inherently bad, just because of a dislike based on a learned negative association.

I was never taught IRish. My dislike if it has nothing to do with how it was taught. I just see it as a vanity project which has notions about itself. When you suggest anything as subversive as porn be in Irish people get uppity.

I love Nuala Dhomnaill. She is one of my favorite poets. I would bet that if she were not an Irish Language poet she would be in Norton Anthologies across the English speaking academe. But she's not because she writes in an obscure language that no one cares about except an elect group of nostalgists.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Alive, or on artificial life support?

Would it survive & thrive if it had to fund itself only from voluntary contributions?

There are enough people speaking, and learning the language to keep it alive.

Rebelheart

metrovelvet wrote: »

I just see it as a vanity project which has notions about itself.... I love Nuala Dhomnaill. She is one of my favorite poets. I would bet that if she were not an Irish Language poet she would be in Norton Anthologies across the English speaking academe. But she's not because she writes in an obscure language that no one cares about except an elect group of nostalgists.

Ironic that you speak about Irish being a "vanity project" and there you are feigning a lament for Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill because she is not superficial enough to change language and write in English just for the international acclaim.

The shallowness and cultural insecurity of the anti-Irish brigade in this thread never ceases to amaze. If you're popular and famous, you must be greater and more talented than somebody who is not popular and famous. :rolleyes:

Cú Giobach

metrovelvet wrote: »

I was never taught IRish. My dislike if it has nothing to do with how it was taught. .

I never said it was.

I just see it as a vanity project which has notions about itself.

You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how ridiculous it is.

When you suggest anything as subversive as porn be in Irish people get uppity.

People get uppity when people make inane comments like "Hard core porn ash gale ga would do it a world of good".
This isn't AH.
Baby talk is for babys.

But she's not because she writes in an obscure language that no one cares about except an elect group of nostalgists.

So is this attitude of yours just towards Irish speakers or do you have a problem with minority languages in general.??
Obscure to you perhaps, but not to her. Maybe things wouldn't be so obscure if you took of those very narrow blinkers you wear.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

There are enough people speaking, and learning the language to keep it alive.

Brilliant! Glad to hear it, we can save a lot of money now.

AlexderFranke

I am a German having been learning Irish since a few years alltogether. I have also visited Ireland several times. Therefore I can give my few pennies to the topic.
Irish is no way a dead language! It has health deficits. It can never said that it is a dead language when there are still around 100.000 native speakers and around 400.000 - 500.000 persons with reasonable competence on the whole island. Those numbers are crediible from my own experiences. On my recent travel I was surprised of the frequency I had met persons with enough competence to converse about daily life. There are, however, great regional differences not only between the Gaeltacht and outside.
In Galway city, Irish is clearly noticable by some Irish-language and bilingual private signage and the odd Irish heard on the street. This is not the case in other cities I have visited. The amount of people understanding Irish is noticeable higher than in other cities. This is also visible in the census and the research "The Irish language and the Irish people". The range of weekly and daily users outside school ranges from 2% to 7% in ciies outside the Gaeltacht. The percentage of fluent (probably really competent) speakers ranges from 3% to 15% outside the Gaeltacht. It seems to me that Irish is weakest in the southeast of Ireland.

Is Gearmánach mise agus mé ag foghlaim Gaeilge le cúpla bliain in éindí. Agus thug mé cuairt ar an Éirinn uaireanta éagsúla agus mar sin is féidir liom mo chúpla pingin a thabhairt.
Ní teanga mharbh atá i gceist, ach le heaspa sláinte. Ní féidir riamh a rá gur teanga mharbh í an Ghaeilge agus
100.000 cainteoir dúchais agus
400.000 - 500.000 duine le scileanna téasúnta atá ann ar fud an oileáin go fóill. Freastalaíonn na huimhreacha sin le mo thaithí féin ar feadh mo thuras. Bhí iontas orm ag mo thuras seo caite an mhéid daoine ar bhuail mé leo lena ndóthain Gaeilge le comhrá faoi scéalta den saol laethúil a bheith acu liomsa.
Ach bíonn go leor éagsúlacht áitiúil ann ní amháin idir an Ghaeltacht agus an neamh-Ghaeltacht. I gcathair na Gaillimhe, tá an Ghaeilge le tabhairt faoi déara go léir trí cuid fógraí príobháideacha as Gaeilge agus dátheangacha chomh maith leis an gcorr-fhocal labhartha ar an sráid. Ní bhíonn an scéal céanna ann sna cathracha eile ar thug mé cuairt orthu. Agus is í an mhéid daoine a thuigeann an Ghaeilge is áirde i nGaillimh idir na cathracha.
Feictear é chomh maith go soiléir sa Daonáireamh agus sa suirbhé darb ainm "An Ghaeilge agus an pobal Éireannach". Is é ceatadán na húsaide laethúla agus seachtanúla idir 2% agus 7% lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Agus is é ceatadán na gcainteoirí líofa (nó fíor-oilte, is dócha) idir 3% agus 15% lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Is dóigh liom gurb é an oir-dheisceart an ceantair is laige as ucht na Gaeilge.

Go n-éirí an Ghaeilge libh,

Alex