Is Irish a dead language?

cyclopath2001

AlexderFranke wrote: »

around 400.000 - 500.000 persons with reasonable competence on the whole island.

Apart from your goodself, how many of these filled in the Irish language version of the census form?

It's quite interesting and inspirational to see a non-Irish person deciding to learn Irish. I hope many Irish people speak German was well as you do Irish.

Perhaps one way for the Irish language lobby to get its numbers up would be to out-source Irish speaking? Maybe offer visas to poor countries if their people come here and speak Irish? I think Israel got its numbers up by inviting Ethiopian Jews anxious to escape poverty in their own country. Who knows, maybe there's a lost tribe of Irish people out there.....

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Apart from your goodself, how many of these filled in the Irish language version of the census form?

It's quite interesting and inspirational to see a non-Irish person deciding to learn Irish. I hope many Irish people speak German was well as you do Irish.

Perhaps one way for the Irish language lobby to get its numbers up would be to out-source Irish speaking? Maybe offer visas to poor countries if their people come here and speak Irish? I think Israel got its numbers up by inviting Ethiopian Jews anxious to escape poverty in their own country. Who knows, maybe there's a lost tribe of Irish people out there.....

Think i'll stick with educational reform, Call me crazy:pac:

AlexderFranke

Indeed, this would be an interesting figure how many citizens filled in the Irish version of the census form.
The numbers stated by me can be calculated from a survey of 1994 from Ó Riagáin and Ó Gliasáin where they state several levels of ability. And the levels of native speaker ability and ability to handle most conversations are likely to stand for those with real competence. The respective percentages were 2% and 9%. In the 90ies I have seen another statistic from Bord na Gaeilge, which is Foras na Gaeilge today where about 5% were stated with good knowledge of Irish and a further 5% with very good knowledge, i.e. native or native-near ability. Yes, I have myself met a few native speakers reared in an urban areA. You have to add between 50.000 and 100.000 competent speakers and perhaps 20.000 (neo-)native speakers in the North. So you will get the numbers from my post above. But after 80 years of cimpulsory Irish one would expect much higher percentages and more than 90% of (fairly) fluent speakers in the Gaeltacht and more than 50% in Galway city.The freqzency of meeting competent speakers has differed during my trevels. Sometimes I wondered where they are. Another day I was estonished how often I have met one of them.
Furthermore I have giben a song on a céilí. I announced this and did it bilingually. If I held regularly public speeaches in Ireland, I would it do always bilingually.

Is éard a mbeadh ceist spéisiúil ná cé mhéad daoine ar líon isteach foirm an Dhaonáirimh as Gaeilge.
Is féidir na huimhreacha tugtha agam thuas a bheith comhairthe as suirbhé cumtha ag Ó Riagáin agus Ó Gliasáin sa bhliain 1994 le leibhéil éagsúla an eolais. Agus iad na leibhéil mar atá scileanna ar nós cainteoir dúchais agus chun an chuid is mó na gcomhráite a leanúint a sheasann do na gcainteoirí sách-oilte go fíor. Ba iad na ceatadáin áirithe ná 2% agus 9%. Agus chonaic mé staitistic ó Bhord na Gaeilge céard is Foras na Gaeilge inniu sa bhliain sna 90aidí. Thug siad timpeall 5% dóibh sin le Gaeilge mhaith agus timpeall 5% eile le Gaeilge an-mhaith, sin iad na cinn le scileanna mar a bheadh cainteoirí dúchais agus gar dó sin. Is fíor gur bhuail mé féin cheana le cainteoirí dùchais a tógadh i gceantar uirbeach. Agus caithfeadh tú idir
50.000 agus 100.000 cainteoiir a chur isteach chomh maith le b'fhéidir 20.000 cainteoir (nua-)dúchais sa Tuisceart. Mar sin gheobhaidh sibh na huimhreacha tugtha uaim thuas.
Ach bheifí ag súil le ceatadáin i bhfad níos airda tar éis 80 bliain na Gaeilge éigeantaí ar scoil le Gaeilge líofa ag níos mó ná 90% sa Ghaeltacht agus níos mó ná 50% acu i gcathair na Gaillimhe.
Agus d'athraigh an mhéid fíor-chainteoirí Gaeilge ar bhuail mé leo ar feadh mo thuras. Uaireanta chuir mé an cheist orm cén áit a bhfuil siad. Agus lá eile, rinne mé iontas chomh minic is a bhuail mé le fíor-chainteoirí Gaeilge.
Uair amháin, thug mé amhrán ag céilí. D'fhógair mé é agus rinne mé go dátheangach é. Dá labhróinn go rialta go poiblí in Éirinn, dhéanfainn i gcónaí go dátheangach é.
Le deá-mhéin, Alex

cyclopath2001

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Indeed, this would be an interesting figure how many citizens filled in the Irish version of the census form.

This would be very revealing, more so than statistics generated by people and agencies with emotional or financial attachments to the language.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This would be very revealing, more so than statistics generated by people and agencies with emotional or financial attachments to the language.

Are you saying that the CSO doctors the census results to favor the Irish Language?
Conspiracy theories forum is that way --->

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Are you saying that the CSO doctors the census results to favor the Irish Language?
Conspiracy theories forum is that way --->

Not at all. Privately-funded surveys might lean towards questions that satisfy the needs of their sponsors.

I'm saying that the most reliable indicator of Irish literacy and willingness to use it would be a count of how many Irish-language CSO census forms were completed, in full and in Irish.

P. Breathnach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Not at all. Privately-funded surveys might lean towards questions that satisfy the needs of their sponsors.

I'm saying that the most reliable indicator of Irish literacy and willingness to use it would be a count of how many Irish-language CSO census forms were completed, in full and in Irish.

That's tendentious bollocks. Herself and I are fluent in Irish, although English is the principal language in our home. Yet we both use Irish from time to time in our private conversations, and use it outside the home in conversations with various Irish speakers that we know, particularly gaeltacht people. When the census enumerator left us a form in English, we didn't see any reason to seek one in Irish.

cyclopath2001

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Not at all. Privately-funded surveys might lean towards questions that satisfy the needs of their sponsors.

I'm saying that the most reliable indicator of Irish literacy and willingness to use it would be a count of how many Irish-language CSO census forms were completed, in full and in Irish.

Any idea how difficult it was to get the Irish language version of the census?, I gave up after ringing up 3 times.

cyclopath2001

P. Breathnach wrote: »

When the census enumerator left us a form in English, we didn't see any reason to seek one in Irish.

That's shows the limit of your support for Irish. A missed opportunity to assert a right and a demand. And to be measured.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's shows the limit of your support for Irish. A missed opportunity to assert a right and a demand. And to be measured.

If this is a serious comment I have genuine pity for you.

P. Breathnach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's shows the limit of your support for Irish. A missed opportunity to assert a right and a demand. And to be measured.

I'm not interested in trivial gestures. My support for Irish is real in the only way that truly matters: I speak the language.

cyclopath2001

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not interested in trivial gestures. My support for Irish is real in the only way that truly matters: I speak the language.

I am touched by your deeply held linguistic preference. But in the current economic climate we need to get real with measuring costs and outcomes. It seems to me that the Irish lobby is unprepared to justify the costs it imposes on the economy.

P. Breathnach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I am touched by your deeply held linguistic preference. But in the current economic climate we need to get real with measuring costs and outcomes. It seems to me that the Irish lobby is unprepared to justify the costs it imposes on the economy.

Am I to infer from your change in tack that you no longer contend that the language in which a census form is completed is a significant indicator of anything?

cyclopath2001

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Am I to infer from your change in tack that you no longer contend that the language in which a census form is completed is a significant indicator of anything?

No, I consider it highly significant. The whole issue of the vitality of Irish turns on the enthusiasm and commitment of Irish people to use the language at every opportunity and to 'stand up and be counted'. That way the state could justify providing documents in Irish.

Unless of course, your choice of the English-language version was a protest against the redundancy of providing an Irish-language document?

P. Breathnach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

No, I consider it highly significant. The whole issue of the vitality of Irish turns on the enthusiasm and commitment of Irish people to use the language at every opportunity and to 'stand up and be counted'. That way the state could justify providing documents in Irish.

Using Irish at every opportunity is making a choice for a wrong reason. I use Irish where it falls naturally into my life. I don't force it in, and I'm certainly not interested in forcing it on anybody else.

I was asked some time ago to join a local group who formed an Irish circle, and declined. I don't speak Irish to make a point: I use it to communicate. I might have agreed to join the circle if they wanted me to help them improve their Irish, but that wasn't an issue, as one of them was a teacher of Irish and had undertaken that role.

Unless of course, your choice of the English-language version was a protest against the redundancy of providing an Irish-language document?

Again, I'm simply not interested in gestures. The census enumerator left an English-language form at the house, and we filled it in. Had she left an Irish-language version, we would have filled that one in. But I wouldn't think of inconveniencing her by asking her to come back with a different version of the form.

deise go deo

So you have gone from arguing that the census is not credible as regards the Irish language to saying the only measure of the Irish language is how many Irish language forms were filled in?
Now theres a Logical continuation to wrap your head around,

I suppose P.Brathanach rejects the Irish language because he dident demand an Irish language form?

Focalbhach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I am touched by your deeply held linguistic preference. But in the current economic climate we need to get real with measuring costs and outcomes. It seems to me that the Irish lobby is unprepared to justify the costs it imposes on the economy.

Am I the only one thinking that if P. Breathnach had demanded an Irish-language form to replace his English-language form (with attendant postage and administration expense), there'd be an outcry over the needless spending of money to satisfy the "Irish lobby"?

cyclopath2001

leto wrote:

Am I the only one thinking that if P. Breathnach had demanded an Irish-language form to replace his English-language form (with attendant postage and administration expense), there'd be an outcry over the needless spending of money to satisfy the "Irish lobby"?

There is already a problem with duplication of services in Irish which are already provided in English. Irish-speakers could contribute to national recovery by agreeing to amend the Official Languages Act.

deise go deo wrote: »

So you have gone from arguing that the census is not credible as regards the Irish language to saying the only measure of the Irish language is how many Irish language forms were filled in?

The questions about Irish in the English-language form indicate what English speakers think about their Irish ability. A fully filled-in Irish language form indicates what they do.

deise go deo wrote: »

I suppose P.Brathanach rejects the Irish language because he dident demand an Irish language form?

There's no reason to draw such a conclusion. While not wanting to focus the discussion on P.Brathneach personally, I suggest that this indicates his personal choice in how he supports Irish.

Bottom line is how do we objectively measure Irish-speaking activity?

AlexderFranke

to breathnach:
Well, Irish language circles, as I think, do not only have the aim to improve the Irish, but also to give people the opportunity to get to know other speakers of the city, especially those new to the city or newly gaining interest. I think that it is normal to make use of every opportunity to practice the language in the case of lesser used languages. But I do not mean to force it onto people with reluctance. It is worth showing that you prefer Irish, however.

Bhuel, ní amháin feabhas a chur ar an nGaeilge atá mar aidhm ar chiorcail Ghaeilge mar atáim ag smaoineamh, ach chomh maith chun an dheis a thabhairt do dhaoine aithne a chur ar Ghaeilgeoirí eile an bhaile/na cathrach, go háirithe na cinn sin nua sa bhaile/chathair agus le nua-ghlacadh suime. Smaoinim gur scéal coitianta é úsáid a bhaint as gach dheis le cleachtadh na teanga i gcás teangacha úsaidte níos lú leathan. Ach ní cur ar dhaoine le drogall atá i gceist agam. Is éard is fiú ná taispeáint gur fearr leat an Ghaeilge.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

There is already a problem with duplication of services in Irish which are already provided in English.

This is something all countries with more than one national language have to put up with, and considered the norm throughout most of Europe. You think it's a problem, others think it's natural.

There's no reason to draw such a conclusion. While not wanting to focus the discussion on P.Brathneach personally, I suggest that this indicates his personal choice in how he supports Irish.

Well you would be wrong then, judging by the comments he has made regarding his use of the language.

Bottom line is how do we objectively measure Irish-speaking activity?

The only way that is realistically possible, ask them.

P. Breathnach

AlexderFranke wrote: »

to breathnach:
Well, Irish language circles, as I think, do not only have the aim to improve the Irish, but also to give people the opportunity to get to know other speakers of the city, especially those new to the city or newly gaining interest. I think that it is normal to make use of every opportunity to practice the language in the case of lesser used languages. But I do not mean to force it onto people with reluctance. It is worth showing that you prefer Irish, however.

Bhuel, ní amháin feabhas a chur ar an nGaeilge atá mar aidhm ar chiorcail Ghaeilge mar atáim ag smaoineamh, ach chomh maith chun an dheis a thabhairt do dhaoine aithne a chur ar Ghaeilgeoirí eile an bhaile/na cathrach, go háirithe na cinn sin nua sa bhaile/chathair agus le nua-ghlacadh suime. Smaoinim gur scéal coitianta é úsáid a bhaint as gach dheis le cleachtadh na teanga i gcás teangacha úsaidte níos lú leathan. Ach ní cur ar dhaoine le drogall atá i gceist agam. Is éard is fiú ná taispeáint gur fearr leat an Ghaeilge.

I have no objection to Irish circles, and they serve the purposes of some people very well. They are just not my style of thing.

oscarBravo

The language of this forum is English. If you're going to post in Irish, please provide a translation.

deise go deo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have no objection to Irish circles, and they serve the purposes of some people very well. They are just not my style of thing.

Thats fair enough, I have been in a few, They are a great way to meet people with an intrest in Irish and actually use it.

Iv never been in one just to make a point though.....

cyclopath2001

c&#250 wrote: »

This is something all countries with more than one national language have to put up with, and considered the norm throughout most of Europe. You think it's a problem, others think it's natural.

There is no comparison. In those other countries, the multiple languages have roughly equal numbers of speakers and for each of them, the language is their first, and maybe only language. The official status reflects the reality of what is spoken in the streets. In Ireland, this is simply not the case.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The only way that is realistically possible, ask them.

....in Irish.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

....in Irish.

Of course, but the number of census forms filled out in Irish will only give you the number of households who filled it out in Irish. Since most forms sent out will be English, then most people will fill out these. Only certain people will take the time and trouble to get a different one, and human nature being what it is not a lot of people will bother.
Insisting on having forms (of any kind) in Irish isn't something every supporter of the language does, nor should have to do.
An accurate count such as you want is impossible, unless every single person stands up to be counted and human nature itself precludes this.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

An accurate count such as you want is impossible, unless every single person stands up to be counted and human nature itself precludes this.

But this makes it very difficult to know the effect of all the money spent on promoting Irish, directly and indirectly.

It also makes it very easy for the Irish language lobby to claim unverifiable 'silent majority' support.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But this makes it very difficult to know the effect of all the money spent on promoting Irish, directly and indirectly.

It also makes it very easy for the Irish language lobby to claim unverifiable 'silent majority' support.

there are lots of things in life that are difficult.
Reality can be hard sometimes.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

there are lots of things in life that are difficult.
Reality can be hard sometimes.

The reality is that we are an English-speaking country.

P. Breathnach

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Of course, but the number of census forms filled out in Irish will only give you the number of households who filled it out in Irish....

The whole question of census forms is a red herring and, in my opinion, far too much time has been spent on discussing it here.

But in a more general context, it is fair enough to ask a person "An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?" and to presume that those who cannot answer probably do not have much ability in Irish.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The reality is that we are an English-speaking country.

If nobody spoke Irish that would be true, since people do speak Irish, it is logically impossible for that statement to be correct.