Is Irish a dead language?

Cú Giobach

The whole question of census forms is a red herring and, in my opinion, far too much time has been spent on discussing it here.

You should have taken that up with the person obsessed with it.

But in a more general context, it is fair enough to ask a person "An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?" and to presume that those who cannot answer probably do not have much ability in Irish.

Obviously.

cyclopath2001

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The whole question of census forms is a red herring and, in my opinion, far too much time has been spent on discussing it here.and to presume that those who cannot answer probably do not have much ability in Irish.

Sorry if the idea of an objective, independent, practical, and simple way of measuring the ability and intent to speak Irish makes you uncomfortable.

It would not be important at all were it not for the huge amounts of money spent on the language, to so little measurable effect.

c&#250 wrote: »

If nobody spoke Irish that would be true, since people do speak Irish, it is logically impossible for that statement to be correct.

Then by your logic, we are also a Chinese and Polish speaking country.

P. Breathnach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Sorry if the idea of an objective, independent, practical, and simple way of measuring the ability and intent to speak Irish makes you uncomfortable.

I have no objection to the idea of an objective, independent, practical, and simple way of measuring the ability and intent to speak Irish. I just don't believe that completing census forms in Irish gets us there.

[I have allowed myself to be drawn into discussing a red herring. Enough, I say, enough. Or too much.]

cyclopath2001

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have no objection to the idea of an objective, independent, practical, and simple way of measuring the ability and intent to speak Irish. I just don't believe that completing census forms in Irish gets us there.

You may disagree with the method, but hopefully you agree with the concept. Is there a way of accurately measuring people with the ability, intent, habit and practice of Irish, as opposed to those who just think it's a nice idea.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Then by your logic, we are also a Chinese and Polish speaking country.

We do have a multi-lingual society now but these are not languages indigenous to this country, and your above statement does not make your previous one correct.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

We do have a multi-lingual society now but these are not languages indigenous to this country, and your above statement does not make your previous one correct.

So, your assertion of official status for Irish and all the expense this implies, is based on solely on the indigenous nature of the language and not on demographic necessity? There's still no comparison with Belgium or Switzerland both of which have significant populations using their official languages on a daily basis. Comparing Ireland to either country is just wrong and a desperate attempt to inflate the Irish-speaking demographic.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So, your assertion of official status for Irish and all the expense this implies, is based on solely on the indigenous nature of the language and not on demographic necessity? There's still no comparison with Belgium or Switzerland both of which have significant populations using their official languages on a daily basis. Comparing Ireland to either country is just wrong and a desperate attempt to inflate the Irish-speaking demographic.

Have you ever been to any of the Kerry, Donegal, or Connemara gaeltachts??

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Have you ever been to any of the Kerry, Donegal, or Connemara gaeltachts??

Yes, they speak both Irish and English there.

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Yes, they speak both Irish and English there.

Yer one tough badger Cyclopath

Anyway though, something from a few pages back I'd like cleared up.

Originally Posted by del_c
Well, when I see posters comparing Irish language revival efforts to Nazism, then I would tend to think it better to just agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclopath2001
And to ignore the lessons of the past? Why not critically review the 'Gaelic Revival' movement, afraid you might learn some uncomfortable truths?.

In what way is Irish language revival comparable to Nazism? Or would you like to withdraw this slur?

Iwasfrozen

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If nobody spoke Irish that would be true, since people do speak Irish, it is logically impossible for that statement to be correct.

Not true, Ireland is an english speaking country. Much like America is an english speaking country, France is a french speaking country and Russia is a russian speaking country.

Not everybody in a country has to speak english to make it an english speaking country.

Iwasfrozen

del_c wrote: »

In what way is Irish language revival comparable to Nazism? Or would you like to withdraw this slur?

Both movements have their foundations in nationalism.

LordSutch

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Is Irish a dead language?

The converse of the OP question is "Is the Irish language alive"?

When I go out of my hall door in the morning and get on the bus do I hear any Irish being spoken? No I don't, when I got into the office do I hear any Irish being spoken there? No I don't, at the coffee shop down the road? No Irish spoken either, in the pub after work, No Irish to be heard anywhere, at the weekend in pubs & clubs around town? NO Irish to be heard, and I could go on & on & on with examples, but the fact remains that Irish is not alive to most of us in Ireland (unless you live in the Gaeltacht) or study Irish in college.

Just in case there's any doubt, Ireland is of course an English speaking country.

del_c

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Both movements have their foundations in nationalism.

So do many political and cultural movements in modern politics.

To make it comparable to Nazism, it would have to have some of the distuinguishing characteristics of Nazism e.g. a belief in a Master Race and Racial and Lebensraum for said race, extermirmination / enslavement of Untermenschen....

As many of the original leading figures in the Gaelic Revival were not even of Irish racial backgound (whatever that means), it hardly makes the movements comparable. Douglas Hyde, Lady Gregory, Paraic Pearse (English Mother). Don't remember too many Rosenberg's on the front bench of the Nazi party.

This is an unjustified slur, and it is only fair that you recognise it as such.

Go raibh maith agat.

del_c

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not true, Ireland is an english speaking country. Much like America is an english speaking country, France is a french speaking country and Russia is a russian speaking country.

Not everybody in a country has to speak english to make it an english speaking country.

In Switzerland, there are four languages spoken; German, French, Italian and Retro Romanisch.

Ireland is like this. Is this such a difficult concept to grasp. We have 2 national languages, not one, 2.

Iwasfrozen

del_c wrote: »

In Switzerland, there are four languages spoken; German, French, Italian and Retro Romanisch.

Ireland is like this. Is this such a difficult concept to grasp. We have 2 national languages, not one, 2.

Ask someone from China what is Irelanhds national language and they will say english he won't mention irish. Ask him what is Switzerlands national language and he will probably say french or german, again he won't mention italian or retro romanisch (whatever the hell that is).

In the eyes of the world Ireland has only one language. The language we're speaking right now.

Iwasfrozen

del_c wrote: »

So do many political and cultural movements in modern politics.

To make it comparable to Nazism, it would have to have some of the distuinguishing characteristics of Nazism e.g. a belief in a Master Race and Racial and Lebensraum for said race, extermirmination / enslavement of Untermenschen....

As many of the original leading figures in the Gaelic Revival were not even of Irish racial backgound (whatever that means), it hardly makes the movements comparable. Douglas Hyde, Lady Gregory, Paraic Pearse (English Mother). Don't remember too many Rosenberg's on the front bench of the Nazi party.

This is an unjustified slur, and it is only fair that you recognise it as such.

Go raibh maith agat.

I'm not saying I agreed with it, I only answered your question.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ask someone from China what is Irelands national language and they will say english he won't mention irish. Ask him what is Switzerlands national language and he will probably say french or german, again he won't mention italian or retro romanisch (whatever the hell that is).

In the eyes of the world Ireland has only one language. The language we're speaking right now.

You obviously havent ever seen Yu Ming is anim dom:D

del_c

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ask someone from China what is Irelanhds national language and they will say english he won't mention irish. Ask him what is Switzerlands national language and he will probably say french or german, again he won't mention italian or retro romanisch (whatever the hell that is).

That would make him wrong then wouldn't it? So I would correct him. What's your point?

Mind you if he then said "What ever the hell Gaylga is?"...then I'd probably think he was a bit on the ignorant side, and I'd question whether he was worthy of enlightenment

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

In what way is Irish language revival comparable to Nazism? Or would you like to withdraw this slur?

Both used romantic revival of past history and culture, created racial stereotypes and encouraged sectarianism. Populist sentiment was whipped up and people were killed and burnt out of their houses on account these feelings. They are comparable, but, fortunately, not equal.

del_c wrote: »

In Switzerland, there are four languages spoken; German, French, Italian and Retro Romanisch.

And the German-speakers speak German every day, the French-speakers speak French etc. Each of those populations is a very significant proportion of the nation and are unlikely to be fluent in the other languages and can afford to support administrative infrastructure in their official languages.

In Ireland, the so-called Irish-speakers mostly speak English and it's unlikely that there are any who speak only Irish. It would be much cheaper if all administration were in English.

alan85

Quote:
Originally Posted by del_c
In what way is Irish language revival comparable to Nazism? Or would you like to withdraw this slur?

Both used romantic revival of past history and culture, created racial stereotypes and encouraged sectarianism. Populist sentiment was whipped up and people were killed and burnt out of their houses on account these feelings. They are comparable, but, fortunately, not equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by del_c
In Switzerland, there are four languages spoken; German, French, Italian and Retro Romanisch.

And the German-speakers speak German every day, the French-speakers speak French etc. Each of those populations is a very significant proportion of the nation and are unlikely to be fluent in the other languages and can afford to support administrative infrastructure in their official languages.

In Ireland, the so-called Irish-speakers mostly speak English and it's unlikely that there are any who speak only Irish. It would be much cheaper if all administration were in English.

You really are a bigot and so are the moderators for tolerating such intolerance.

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Both used romantic revival of past history and culture, created racial stereotypes and encouraged sectarianism. Populist sentiment was whipped up and people were killed and burnt out of their houses on account these feelings. They are comparable, but, fortunately, not equal.

The Gaelic Revival, which was started by people from all creeds and "racial stock", sought to revive Irish Language and interest in Irish culture and games. "Populist sentiment was whipped up" by certain physical force traditions and political movements, which had always existed piggy-backed on elements of this and worked it into their own narratives, using it, and twisting it for their own ends.

It is an incorrect deduction to state that a Gaelic cultural revival caused people to be burned out of their homes. There are numerous attempts in this thread to smear Irish speakers with being, in effect, sectarian rah-heads, this is wrong.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

And the German-speakers speak German every day, the French-speakers speak French etc. Each of those populations is a very significant proportion of the nation and are unlikely to be fluent in the other languages and can afford to support administrative infrastructure in their official languages.

Well now, german makes up about 65% of native speakers. Of the French and Italian speakers, at least half speak German to a good enough level to interract with authorites, apply for a passport, fill out a census form etc. And sure that Italian is spoken by so few, tell 'em to speak German too. But they don't have to. Their multi-lingualism is recognised and respected.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

In Ireland, the so-called Irish-speakers mostly speak English and it's unlikely that there are any who speak only Irish. It would be much cheaper if all administration were in English

Partly because, up to now, Irish people make it impossible for people to live their lives without forcing them to speaking English. This does not happen in other cultures. I should know, I have one notch on my Sally Rod on this board for posting in simple schoolboy Irish without "providing a translation".

del_c

alan85 wrote: »

You really are a bigot and so are the moderators for tolerating such intolerance.

Fás suas. Amadán.

Scofflaw

del_c, alan85, pack it in, or you'll both be banned. alan85 banned anyway for two weeks, since we've been over the fact that "bigot" is an insult, and alan85 has a previous one week ban for its use in discussion.



moderately,
Scofflaw

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

The Gaelic Revival, .... sought to revive Irish Language and interest in Irish culture and games...

"Populist sentiment was whipped up" by certain physical force traditions and political movements, which had always existed piggy-backed on elements of this and worked it into their own narratives, using it, and twisting it for their own ends.

This is a fact of life of cultural revival movements.

del_c wrote: »

Their multi-lingualism is recognised and respected.

Because the numbers involved are significant, there is a demographic need for services in the main languages.

del_c wrote: »

Partly because, up to now, Irish people make it impossible for people to live their lives without forcing them to speaking English.

Irish-speakers are living in a predominantly English-speaking country, and they speak English very well. There is no demographic need for state services in Irish.

If the language deserves to survive, it will survive without artificial supports and thrive through your enthusiasm for it.

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is a fact of life of cultural revival movements.

I'd accept that there can be unpleasant spinoffs from cultural revival movements. Many have in common, the fact that they were hijacked by other movements.

Getting back to Nazism; while the German cultural revivalism of the 19th Century and the founding of a German national identity through such works as The Brothers Grimm, gave a cultural context for the reunification of Germany, it was actually caused by active Prussian expansionism against a relatively Hapsburg state; who could conveniently point to this German cultural Risorgemento and use it for their own ends. Nazism used a lot of these themes later in a similar way. It was caused by a power vacuum in Germany post WWI and as a response to the humiliations of said conflict. It was not caused by cultural revivalism.

Not that dissimilar to the "links" between the Irish Physical Force Tradition and the Gaelic cultural revival....this leaves out, of course those, who have always spoken Irish as a native language.

You can't say one leads directly to the other in the same way, that you can't say that, for example religion is the cause of the current societal troubles in the balkans...these badges of culture are often taken up as handy cudgels to beat the other side with....doesn't make them intrinsicly divisive.

FoxT

Some earlier posters have suggested that Irish is alive as long as just one person remains who can speak it. That is ridiculous, what is he going to do to keep the language alive, talk to himself?

Irish is alive in the sense that tens of thousands of people remain fluent in it, and use it in their daily lives. However,few will deny that the language is in decline.

Many people seem antagonistic toward the language, possibly as a result of it being compulsory at Leaving Cert. level. Many people who have been through it feel the LC syllabus is by no means engaging or stimulating. Of course, many also feel that math/geography/accounting/insert your hated subject here/ syllabi are irrelevant also, so this is not a reliable indicator.

Many, like myself, question the value of the resources that are being poured in to the language. Compulsory Irish to LC level is expensive, both financially (teachers etc) and in terms of opportunity cost ( LC students could use the time spent on Irish developing their skills in other areas ) .

I find it infuriating that people abuse the language for their own selfish ends ( demanding translations of Govt & EU documents in Irish, placing planning permission advertisements in Irish, demanding that court cases be heard in Irish, etc) These practices should, in my view be abolished.

Finally, I personally retain a gra for the language, and I would like to see it survive & be enjoyed , but without the humbug.

- FoxT

TokenWhite

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ask someone from China what is Irelanhds national language and they will say english he won't mention irish. Ask him what is Switzerlands national language and he will probably say french or german, again he won't mention italian or retro romanisch (whatever the hell that is).

In the eyes of the world Ireland has only one language. The language we're speaking right now.

Why does it matter how the world sees it? Of course foreigners are going to be ignoroant to some parts of Irish culture, it's to be expected.There are plenty of Irish people that would say that the chinas national launguage is chinese, doesn't make them right.


We have 2 officially recognised languages, admittedly one is much more prominent than the other but I hear Irish being spoken regularly on a daily basis so obviously in some eyes, it has its merits.

Iwasfrozen

TokenWhite wrote: »

Why does it matter how the world sees it? Of course foreigners are going to be ignoroant to some parts of Irish culture, it's to be expected.There are plenty of Irish people that would say that the chinas national launguage is chinese, doesn't make them right.


We have 2 officially recognised languages, admittedly one is much more prominent than the other but I hear Irish being spoken regularly on a daily basis so obviously in some eyes, it has its merits.

I'm not denying that Ireland has two national languages. It says so in the constitution. However, demanding both languages be treated equally when they clearly aren't equal is just silly in my view.

Yag reuoY

Few people would have such contempt for the Irish language if it was optional in the education system.

It really is that simple.

deise go deo

FoxT wrote: »

Some earlier posters have suggested that Irish is alive as long as just one person remains who can speak it. That is ridiculous, what is he going to do to keep the language alive, talk to himself?

A liveing language is defined as a language that has native speakers, The Irish language is liveing and will continue to live for quite some time, The last native speaker hasent even been bourn yet.:)

Irish is alive in the sense that tens of thousands of people remain fluent in it, and use it in their daily lives. However,few will deny that the language is in decline.

I will, The gaelthachts have been in decline and may still be in decline, But the Gaelthachts and the language in general are not the same thing, The Gaelscoil movement has grown by an amazing amount in the last 30 years

Many people seem antagonistic toward the language, possibly as a result of it being compulsory at Leaving Cert. level. Many people who have been through it feel the LC syllabus is by no means engaging or stimulating. Of course, many also feel that math/geography/accounting/insert your hated subject here/ syllabi are irrelevant also, so this is not a reliable indicator.

I would agree that many people dont find Irish in school to be engaging or stimulating, I certainly dident, However that dosent mean it is In decline, I went through the same system as everyone else and I dont resent the language because of it.

Many, like myself, question the value of the resources that are being poured in to the language. Compulsory Irish to LC level is expensive, both financially (teachers etc) and in terms of opportunity cost ( LC students could use the time spent on Irish developing their skills in other areas ) .

I was just toled this today, Irish as a whole in the education system costs 500 million. That figure is from An Coimisinéir Teanga. He personally dosent believe that the results of that expenditure are value for money, and I agree with him btw.

I find it infuriating that people abuse the language for their own selfish ends ( demanding translations of Govt & EU documents in Irish, placing planning permission advertisements in Irish, demanding that court cases be heard in Irish, etc) These practices should, in my view be abolished.

What selfish ends? Should people who have Irish as their native language be forced by their own state to speak English? The EU supports Minority Languages, I dont see why we shouldn't.

The thing I find most Infuriating is people giving out about haveing a language ''forced down their throats'' and then turning around and wanting the same done to Irish speakers. Why should the state force people to speak English?

Finally, I personally retain a gra for the language, and I would like to see it survive & be enjoyed , but without the humbug.

- FoxT

Thats good to hear, Another figure I heard today, Also from An Comisinéir Tenga, is that 93% of Irish people are in favor of continued state support and promotion of Irish