Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo · 17-10-2010 1:28pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's easier for the Irish language lobby to derive strength from its enemies than to answer its critics.

Do you agree that the '93% survey' is misleading both in its authenticity and in the interpretation of its results?

You are making a point that people may skue things to favor their own point of view and then post a link to a massively Biased article as support for this?
:rolleyes:

Do you agree that the source you posted is Biased, and misleading in its interpretation of the results?

As for authencity, We have an Comisinéir Teanga and the ERSI V a Blog.
That you choose the blog speaks volumes about your own willingness to skue facts to your own point of view.:p

MysticalRain · 17-10-2010 1:35pm

Odd thing to say when the vast majority of supporters agree the teaching needs to be changed and improved.

Yes, but they will happily dance around the issue of compulsory Irish and avoid addressing that problem. Generations of Irish school kids have been making that point for decades now. Yet somehow the message hasn't sunk home.

If just teaching is considered "shoving down peoples throats", then you could apply the same logic to all subjects.

Certain subjects have to be "shoved down peoples throats", like mathematics and English for instance because basic literacy and numeracy are essential skills for people living in a modern society. There is simply no similar practical justification for elevating Irish to the level of a compulsory subject in this day and age.

There is also the additional problem of Irish being a compulsory requirement for certain professions like teaching, and the civil service. That's one more obstacle which prevents the best and brightest (from Ireland or elsewhere) from joining those professions.

senordingdong · 17-10-2010 1:41pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

There is also the additional problem of Irish being a compulsory requirement for certain professions like teaching, and the civil service. That's one more obstacle which prevents the best and brightest (from Ireland or elsewhere) from joining those professions.

Is it not possible for atleast some of our 'best and brightest' to be Irish speakers?

MysticalRain · 17-10-2010 1:50pm

senordingdong wrote: »

Is it not possible for atleast some of our 'best and brightest' to be Irish speakers?

Sure it's possible. The problem is you will be drawing recruits from a very small pool of people for the sake of an arbitrary entry requirement. That's not a good way to maintain high standards in a profession, especially when you consider the fact that the 'best and brightest' in this day and age will inevitably include recent immigrants to the country.

It makes perfect sense to have Irish as a requirement for someone who wants to teach Irish. But it makes no sense whatsoever for someone who wants to teach maths. Given the pretty poor state maths and science teaching in this little country of ours, it's something the Department of Education may want to consider before it's too late.

senordingdong · 17-10-2010 1:53pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

Sure it's possible. The problem is you will be drawing recruits from a very small pool of people for the sake of an arbitrary entry requirement. That's not a good way to maintain high standards in a profession, especially when you consider the fact that the 'best and brightest' in this day and age will inevitably include recent immigrants to the country.

It makes perfect sense to have Irish as a requirement for someone who wants to teach Irish. But it makes no sense whatsoever for someone who wants to teach maths. Given the pretty poor state maths and science teaching in this little country of ours, it's something the Department of Education may want to consider before it's too late.

Yeah, that's true, fair point.

But here's an interesting point I want put forward, my O/H teaches primary school and says about 20% of the class is made up of immigrants.
She told me that the non Irish children are excelling at Irish.

I wonder why this is happening?

MysticalRain · 17-10-2010 2:01pm

senordingdong wrote: »

Yeah, that's true, fair point.

But here's an interesting point I want put forward, my O/H teaches primary school and says about 20% of the class is made up of immigrants.
She told me that the non Irish children are excelling at Irish.

I wonder why this is happening?

I suspect it's because those kids are multilingual to begin with due to their circumstances. So it's probably easier for them to pick up additional languages, when they already know several.

Why the Irish education system still focuses on only teaching a single other language besides English at primary level is beyond me.

nuac · 17-10-2010 2:02pm

Great news about the immigrant childrens' interest in Irish.

I do hope Irish survives, but I believe all sorts of compulsion to learn Irish in school should be removed. We would then end up with a smaller group who genuinely want to speak and use Irish.

Cú Giobach · 17-10-2010 2:02pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

Yes, but they will happily dance around the issue of compulsory Irish and avoid addressing that problem. Generations of Irish school kids have been making that point for decades now. Yet somehow the message hasn't sunk home.

Certain subjects have to be "shoved down peoples throats", like mathematics and English for instance because basic literacy and numeracy are essential skills for people living in a modern society. There is simply no similar practical justification for elevating Irish to the level of a compulsory subject in this day and age.

I note you didn't mention other compulsory subjects like history and geography.
Teaching is not "shoving down peoples throats", those days are gone.

The simplest analogy I can come up with is forcing religion down peoples throats doesn't make people more religious. That's basic human psychology, which something that the promoters of the Irish language have a hard time grasping.

There are problems, but your "all encompassing" comments are unjustified.
If the fact of teaching Irish is what is turning people away from the language, then as I said that logic could be applied to all subjects. Consequently there would be hatred for everything that was taught in school.

del_c · 17-10-2010 2:02pm

senordingdong wrote: »

She told me that the non Irish children are excelling at Irish.

I wonder why this is happening?

One reason is that they are multi-lingual already. So the 3rd language is easier to learn than the 2nd, the 4th is easier than the 3rd and so on.

By that logic, if Irish children learn irish, it will make it easier for them to learn an additional language, or 2 or 4 later in life....just for those of you who say that Irish has no utilitarian benefit.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2010 2:05pm

del_c wrote: »

One reason is that they are multi-lingual already. So the 3rd language is easier to learn than the 2nd, the 4th is easier than the 3rd and so on.

By that logic, if Irish children learn irish, it will make it easier for them to learn an additional language, or 2 or 4 later in life....just for those of you who say that Irish has no utilitarian benefit.

Same arguement works with chinese, plus chinese has economic benefits. So irish still has no ultilitarian purpose.

deise go deo · 17-10-2010 2:10pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Same arguement works with chinese, plus chinese has economic benefits. So irish still has no ultilitarian purpose.

There are very few jobs in this country that you need Chinese for and very few go to china to work so it is of less benefit than Irish.

MysticalRain · 17-10-2010 2:13pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I note you didn't mention other compulsory subjects like history and geography.
Teaching is not "shoving down peoples throats", those days are gone.

History and geography are not compulsory beyond junior cert. I don't disagree that they could be made optional before junior cert level.

There are problems, but your "all encompassing" comments are unjustified.
If the fact of teaching Irish is what is turning people away from the language, then as I said that logic could be applied to all subjects. Consequently there would be hatred for everything that was taught in school.

Most subjects in the Irish curriculum are not taught in the quite the same hard-assed way that Irish is (history and geography being two examples that don't have quite the same misery attached to them as Irish does). But aside from that, I personally did find the teaching of a few subjects to be offputting because it was forced down my throat. But at least I could see a practical point to being forced to learn maths and science. Furthermore, if I really dislike the subject, I had the choice to drop it post Junior cert if I really want to. That way I could focus on subjects that I genuinely liked and excel at those.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2010 2:13pm

deise go deo wrote: »

There are very few jobs in this country that you need Chinese for and very few go to china to work so it is of less benefit than Irish.

Not true, having a population competent with chinese would attract large wide scale TNCs to the country. The same could be said for French, Spanish, German or Japanese.

MysticalRain · 17-10-2010 2:15pm

deise go deo wrote: »

There are very few jobs in this country that you need Chinese for and very few go to china to work so it is of less benefit than Irish.

You obviously don't work in any high tech or manufacturing industry, or know of any entrepreneurs that do business in China.

del_c · 17-10-2010 2:19pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Same arguement works with chinese, plus chinese has economic benefits. So irish still has no ultilitarian purpose.

In that case, you would have to argue that Irish has LESS utilitarian benefit than Chinese...you would still have to concede that it has benefits for the leasrning of other languages later in life.

deise go deo · 17-10-2010 2:20pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

You obviously don't work in any high tech or manufacturing industry, or know of any entrepreneurs that do business in China.

Yes they would be the few.;)

MysticalRain · 17-10-2010 2:22pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes they would be the few.;)

We're talking several hundred thousand people here. How is that "a few people"?

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2010 2:24pm

del_c wrote: »

In that case, you would have to argue that Irish has LESS utilitarian benefit than Chinese...you would still have to concede that it has benefits for the leasrning of other languages later in life.

Indeed so when faced with a situation where the oppertunity cost of learning irish is learning chinese doesn't it make most sense to teach the one with the greatest benefit? In this case chinese.

del_c · 17-10-2010 2:39pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Indeed so when faced with a situation where the oppertunity cost of learning irish is learning chinese doesn't it make most sense to teach the one with the greatest benefit? In this case chinese.

Well if you had a purely utilitarian view of education, then you would be right.
As education's role in our society is not for filling up kids heads' with facts that turn them into optimal economic resources, then you would have to consider other factors...such as contributing to an understanding of their history, heritage and place in the world, so then you would have to also consider teaching them the language native to these shores.

...this beyond the practicalities of implementing a Chinese teaching acourse across the whole education system, which would only start to bear fruit in 20 years time when the kids in primary school now are starting to finsh college. Who know what China will look like then?

...and if you though the Módh Coinníollach was tricky, then have a think about helping your kids with this ecker:

Far better to use the knowledge we have, teach them Irish, then let a select few, who are prepared to dedicate years of their life to it, learn Chinese for the benefit of the rest of us.

I think the difficulties of learning a language up to a point where it would be useful in industry are underestimated; I've done it, and Leaving Cert language capability would be useless in any meeting anyway.

Is this your suggestion; introduce Chinese as a compulsory subject from 5 years of age?

NewHillel · 17-10-2010 3:07pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Have you ever been to any of the Kerry, Donegal, or Connemara gaeltachts??

Yes, yes and yes - my children went to all three. My (reluctant) view of the Kerry and Donegal gaeltachts was extremely poor. I was left with the strong impression that a high proportion of people promoting the Irish language were only interested in it for money and had no real interest, let alone "grá" for the language or the culture. The Connemara experience was very different - people fighting hard to preserve and promote their language. It is no accident that Irish is still widely heard in the shops in Galway City - students are even discount cards for use when they speak "as Gaeilge" in certain shops.

Hocker · 17-10-2010 3:08pm

I don't think it is, most people in my town speak Irish and learn it in our schools.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2010 3:12pm

del_c wrote: »

Well if you had a purely utilitarian view of education, then you would be right.
As education's role in our society is not for filling up kids heads' with facts that turn them into optimal economic resources, then you would have to consider other factors...such as contributing to an understanding of their history, heritage and place in the world, so then you would have to also consider teaching them the language native to these shores.

In your opinion. Other ore pragmatic people would disagree and assert that education has a purely economic role in society.

del_c wrote: »

Is this your suggestion; introduce Chinese as a compulsory subject from 5 years of age?

No, I'd rather see a european language taught in schools, like french or german. That is if we must teach any language in primary schools.

del_c · 17-10-2010 3:30pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In your opinion. Other ore pragmatic people would disagree and assert that education has a purely economic role in society.

The debate on the utilitarean and liberal view of education predates my musings on this topic I am afraid. The statement "education has a purely economic role in society." does not bear up to any kind of serious scrutiny.

"Welcome to the Department of Education and Skills website. The mission of this Department is to provide high-quality education which will (a) enable individuals to achieve their full potential and to participate fully as members of society; and (b) contribute to Ireland's social, cultural and economic development. "

Most sane indivduals would agree with these broad goals.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2010 3:58pm

del_c wrote: »

The debate on the utilitarean and liberal view of education predates my musings on this topic I am afraid. The statement "education has a purely economic role in society." does not bear up to any kind of serious scrutiny.

"Welcome to the Department of Education and Skills website. The mission of this Department is to provide high-quality education which will (a) enable individuals to achieve their full potential and to participate fully as members of society; and (b) contribute to Ireland's social, cultural and economic development. "

Most sane indivduals would agree with these broad goals.

I don't see the connection between being sane and agreeing with the Department of education.

del_c · 17-10-2010 4:07pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't see the connection between being sane and agreeing with the Department of education.

You'll be home schooling then will you? I'd like to see the outcome of that

.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2010 4:14pm

del_c wrote: »

You'll be home schooling then will you? I'd like to see the outcome of that .

No, I won't. But I also don't have any children so thankfully don't have to worry about that. Maybe by the time I do have a child of school going age Ireland will have matured beyond pointless closed-minded nationalism. I doubt it though.

del_c · 17-10-2010 4:23pm

Would you agree though, that goals of education should be to (a) enable individuals to achieve their full potential and to participate fully as members of society; and (b) contribute to Ireland's social, cultural and economic development. "

No?

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2010 4:28pm

del_c wrote: »

Would you agree though, that goals of education should be to (a) enable individuals to achieve their full potential and to participate fully as members of society; and (b) contribute to Ireland's social, cultural and economic development. "

No?

Are we talking about this is relation to irish?

deise go deo · 17-10-2010 4:30pm

NewHillel wrote: »

- students are even discount cards for use when they speak "as Gaeilge" in certain shops.

I think that may be the Gaelcharta, Its a national campaign although People in Galway may have expanded on it locally, We are going to try and do that in UL.

If you want one have a look at This

deise go deo · 17-10-2010 4:32pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are we talking about this is relation to irish?

What difference dose it make what school subject it is in relation to?

Is Irish a dead language?

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