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Is Irish a dead language?

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    #2042
    senordingdong
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭senordingdong


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Will this change of signage, place names and 'immersion' be imposed on the majority English-speaking community against their will or will you hold a 'survey' first?

    I guess it would be agianst their will.

    But no differntly from how everyone is sent to school to learn Irish against their will.


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    #2043
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    del_c wrote:
    "J. R. R. Tolkien in his 1955 lecture "English and Welsh" distinguishes the "native tongue" from the "cradle tongue," the latter being the language...
    It's interesting that that you choose a fiction writer to back up your position, indeed, an inventor of mythical worlds and cultures.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    To reject something you have to actively refuse it, I have never been offered the chance to learn Bulgarian therefore I have never rejected the language.
    But Irish people have been offered the opportunity to learn Irish and to speak it and they don't. They may not hate it but they have demonstrated that they don't love it as much as you do or in the same way as you do.

    You're trying to claim the support of a 'silent majority'.


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    #2044
    del_c
    Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭del_c


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    It's interesting that that you choose a fiction writer to back up your position, indeed, an inventor of mythical worlds and cultures.

    Yeah, well I was not looking to back up my position, just to demonstrate that there are different understanding of the terms native language...pulled this one from the wiki entry on native language.

    Your comment doesn't challenge the substance of the point though, so I can understand why you'd try the wee diversion tactic.

    So Irish, in your own terms, is a language indigenous to Ireland. Glad we got that far.

    In my (and 93% of the Irish population's eyes) that makes it worthy of state support. This means that it will continue to be supported.

    What are you going to do about it then? On a scale of 1:10, 1 being Anglo Irish Bank and 10 being, let's say non-unified ticketing on Dublin Commuter Systems, how much of a "problem" do you think state support of Irish is?

    Would you withdraw all funding from Irish language support?

    What would you say to the 41% who are actively in favour current support levels (assuming around half of people don't really care and 6% are actively against supporting it)? Do they get to have a say in their country's cultural support programs?

    Bearing in mind that people who take an interest in a second language (choose whatever language you like), and learn it to a level of proficiency are more likely to be culturally active in other fields than those who don't, wouldn't this actually give them more of a say in cultural matters, than their share of the population would suggest. So, even if the figure for active revivalists was 30%, or 20% it would still be appropriate to give them a major input into decision making, when deciding on setting the tone of culture-related spending.

    Would you agree with this?

    What exactly is it that you would like to see?

    Would you concede that what you are looking for might not be democratic?


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    #2045
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    How could anyone consider Irish a "dead language"? Its essential to watching the Magner's league on TG4 :rolleyes:


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    #2046
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    But Irish people have been offered the opportunity to learn Irish and to speak it and they don't. They may not hate it but they have demonstrated that they don't love it as much as you do or in the same way as you do.

    You're trying to claim the support of a 'silent majority'.

    The point is, you cannot claim people who don't speak it are against it.


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    #2047
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    c&#250 wrote: »
    The point is, you cannot claim people who don't speak it are against it.
    That's an interesting idea. Have you asked them for money?
    del_c wrote: »
    Your comment doesn't challenge the substance of the point though,
    You're trying the make out that Irish is the 'native' language of most Irish people. It is not. They were born to English-speaking parents and learned only English at home, and even after being compelled to learn Irish for many years, they still speak English in their daily lives. It's just plain delusional to say Irish is their native language. You're ignoring facts.
    del_c wrote: »
    In my (and 93% of the Irish population's eyes) that makes it worthy of state support. This means that it will continue to be supported.
    1000 people were interviewed and asked a vague question. You make it sound like there was a plebiscite. It was not. It's an out-of-date survey commissioned to justify funding for a QUANGO.
    del_c wrote: »
    how much of a "problem" do you think state support of Irish is?
    We don't know the scale of the problem as the full cost of the Official Languages Act is hidden. Then there's the money being wasted teaching Irish to English speakers who don't wish to speak Irish and resent the compulsion.
    del_c wrote: »
    Would you withdraw all funding from Irish language support?
    No, I'm sure some spending might be justified, but it needs to be reviewed and unproductive expenditure stopped.
    del_c wrote: »
    What would you say to the 41% who are....
    You're placing a lot of faith in that survey. It seems to be your life-raft.
    del_c wrote: »
    it would still be appropriate to give them a major input into decision making, when deciding on setting the tone of culture-related spending.
    Yes, but let's limit the budget to a reasonable sum, based on tourism and heritage preservation. We have to stop throwing money at people just because they speak Irish.
    del_c wrote: »
    What exactly is it that you would like to see?
    The daily-use of the Irish language (by those who wish to use it) without state subsidy.


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    #2048
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    That's an interesting idea. Have you asked them for money?.
    Not my job.


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    #2049
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Not my job.
    Ah yes, for Irish, money is not a problem.


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    #2050
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Ah yes, for Irish, money is not a problem.
    not mine.


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    #2051
    GodlessInfidel
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭GodlessInfidel


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34a3ahZqEAg


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    #2052
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Hmm, an Irish language in a sterile environment, miles away from its indigenous home, hooked up to all manner of expensive life support equipment and showing the ravages of prosthetic surgery applied to it by the practitioners of 'Official Irish'.

    Spot on!


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    #2053
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Hmm, an Irish language in a sterile environment, miles away from its indigenous home, hooked up to all manner of expensive life support equipment and showing the ravages of prosthetic surgery applied to it by the practitioners of 'Official Irish'.

    Spot on!

    You do realise we are talking about a language and not some sort of wild life?

    What the hell is its ''Indigenous Home''?

    Surely its 'home' is wherever its speakers speak it?




    Edit: Just watched that ''Video'' There isent a roleyes smilie that roles its eyes enough for that one.


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    #2054
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    Irish = Militarism.

    No Thanks. I'd prefer it died. The EU had not included it in their active language, suddenly, there were 6 Million Jews killed in the holocaust, oh, sorry, mixing posts, but the intellectuals .... :)


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    #2055
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    gbee wrote: »
    Irish = Militarism.

    No Thanks. I'd prefer it died. The EU had not included it in their active language, suddenly, there were 6 Million Jews killed in the holocaust, oh, sorry, mixing posts, but the intellectuals .... :)

    What?


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    #2056
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    deise go deo wrote: »
    What?

    What, what? I did say the intellectuals ..... so I have to fill this in then? Well I won't, it would be an insult to the intellectuals.

    What?, what?, what?. What?, what?, what?, is that what? Or is it what?


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    #2057
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    gbee wrote: »
    What, what? I did say the intellectuals ..... so I have to fill this in then? Well I won't, it would be an insult to the intellectuals.

    What?, what?, what?. What?, what?, what?, is that what? Or is it what?

    :confused:


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    #2058
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    You do realise we are talking about a language and not some sort of wild life?
    I thought the language was supposed to be a wild beautiful thing?
    deise go deo wrote: »
    What the hell is its ''Indigenous Home''?
    The time and place where it originated.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Surely its 'home' is wherever its speakers speak it?
    Not if it's been taken out of its original context and environment.

    Compare Irish to Hebrew, the latter is integral to a religion and a way of life. Modern Irish is....just a language.


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    #2059
    senordingdong
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭senordingdong


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Compare Irish to Hebrew, the latter is integral to a religion and a way of life. Modern Irish is....just a language.

    But if we could try to make it more than just a language then I think we could create a trend of speaking Irish.


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    #2060
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    gbee wrote: »
    What, what? I did say the intellectuals ..... so I have to fill this in then? Well I won't, it would be an insult to the intellectuals.

    What?, what?, what?. What?, what?, what?, is that what? Or is it what?
    What?


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    #2061
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    I thought the language was supposed to be a wild beautiful thing?

    The time and place where it originated.

    Not if it's been taken out of its original context and environment.

    Compare Irish to Hebrew, the latter is integral to a religion and a way of life. Modern Irish is....just a language.
    I agree, no language should be taken out of it's original context and environment. That's why I'm part of a campaign to return English to it's rightful place as the language of spear carrying fishermen called Sygfried in Elbe/Eider plane in Holstein, they want their language back and I say gewurþe hiera willa!


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    #2062
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    gbee wrote: »
    Irish = Militarism.

    No Thanks. I'd prefer it died. The EU had not included it in their active language, suddenly, there were 6 Million Jews killed in the holocaust, oh, sorry, mixing posts, but the intellectuals .... :)

    Interesting, so I take it you wouldn't have militaristic feelings. Say, feeling like putting a bomb in a city hall for flying a Union flag.


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    #2063
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    senordingdong wrote: »
    But if we could try to make it more than just a language then I think we could create a trend of speaking Irish.

    But, as have said in a previous post "If the teaching of Irish has failed miserably in the first ninety years, why should it succeed in the next ninety years"? What's the Big change going to be? every few years we hear that 'Irish' is now going to be sexy, its just about to take off, in 2005 it even became an official EU language, (ah sure we will all be speaking it soon)! all kids will love it, mandatory Irish is the only way to go, it's only a matter of time now :cool: still waiting . . . . . . .

    So I say, in order to retain the love of the language > Make it optional in secondary school > The compulsory nature of the teaching kills it, always has done, always will do, and until the powers that be acknowledge this, the future is bleak for its revival as a spoken language.


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    #2064
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    LordSutch wrote: »
    But, as have said in a previous post "If the teaching of Irish has failed miserably in the first ninety years, why should it succeed in the next ninety years"? What's the Big change going to be? every few years we hear that 'Irish' is now going to be sexy, its just about to take off, in 2005 it even became an official EU language, (ah sure we will all be speaking it soon)! all kids will love it, mandatory Irish is the only way to go, it's only a matter of time now :cool: still waiting . . . . . . .

    So I say, in order to retain the love of the language > Make it optional in secondary school > The compulsory nature of the teaching kills it, always has done, always will do, and until the powers that be acknowledge this, the future is bleak for its revival as a spoken language.

    For the First 90 years Irish was thought very badly, Rote learning with out even a translation of what was being learned, Corporal punishment, An Massive over emphasis on writing and poetry at the expense of spoken Irish.

    I want that to be done away with, I want Irish in school to be focused around Spoken Irish, You cant expect people to be able to speak a Language if You barely ever teach them how,
    Would you agree that if Irish in School was changed to learning how to speak Irish instead of Poetry and essays then people might have a better attitude and ability when it comes to speaking Irish?


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    #2065
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    deise go deo wrote: »
    For the First 90 years Irish was thought very badly, Rote learning with out even a translation of what was being learned, Corporal punishment, An Massive over emphasis on writing and poetry at the expense of spoken Irish.

    I agree that it was (and still is) taught very badly, but so was English in many cases too.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    I want that to be done away with, I want Irish in school to be focused around Spoken Irish, You cant expect people to be able to speak a Language if You barely ever teach them how,
    Would you agree that if Irish in School was changed to learning how to speak Irish instead of Poetry and essays then people might have a better attitude and ability when it comes to speaking Irish?

    I also agree that more emphasis should be put on the spoken word, translating mouldy old poems just doesn't do it for most pupils, neither does writing long auld boring essays in Irish, and I still say that the main hurdle to Irish becoming more widely spoken is the mandatory nature of the compulsory teaching which many parents & children dislike (& some even hate)!


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    #2066
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I agree that it was (and still is) taught very badly, but so was English in many cases too.

    Yes and as such people dident come away with a love for shakespear.
    They were already able to speak English and as such dident assoaciate it with their bad Experience in school.
    I also agree that more emphasis should be put on the spoken word, translating mouldy old poems just doesn't do it for most pupils, neither does writing long auld boring essays in Irish, and I still say that the main hurdle to Irish becoming more widely spoken is the mandatory nature of the compulsory teaching which many parents & children dislike (& some even hate)!


    I would say that reform in Teaching method has to come first to avoid a knee jerk reaction away from Learning Irish.

    If teaching Methods were reformed then after awhile the need for cumpulsory status would receed as more people would be better disposed twords the language and more people would be able to and willing to speak Irish in their everyday lives. In this situation I would have no problem with Irish being made an optional subject.


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    #2067
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    senordingdong wrote: »
    But if we could try to make it more than just a language then I think we could create a trend of speaking Irish.
    That's what the Gaelic Revival tried to do, harnessing anti-English sentiment, creating 'Gaelic' sports (members of the 'occupying forces' excluded), inventing St Patrick's Day and hyping up Irish mythology.

    Now, what religion would you combine it with? Catholicism?

    And the dress code? Kilts for everyone?


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    #2068
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    That's what the Gaelic Revival tried to do, harnessing anti-English sentiment, creating 'Gaelic' sports (members of the 'occupying forces' excluded), inventing St Patrick's Day and hyping up Irish mythology.

    Now, what religion would you combine it with? Catholicism?

    And the dress code? Kilts for everyone?

    Sigh!

    If this kind of sentiment was leveld at any other group action would be swift indeed.

    Which organisation is it you have a problem with? The GAA, The Gaelic League
    Who, What have they done that warrants such bile?
    Promoted the culture native to this Island? Whats so bad with that?


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    #2069
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Promoted the culture native to this Island? Whats so bad with that?
    Shure, it's all a bit of harmless fun. But why pass laws making it compulsory? Why waste millions of euro on it?


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    #2070
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    I gave money in donation to the Irish dancing society and Irish language and cultural society today.And i dont give a toss what people say :D Wont die in my family or relations or friends so Irish never will die.Proud of my native tongue.


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    #2071
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    That's what the Gaelic Revival tried to do, harnessing anti-English sentiment, creating 'Gaelic' sports (members of the 'occupying forces' excluded), inventing St Patrick's Day and hyping up Irish mythology.

    Now, what religion would you combine it with? Catholicism?

    And the dress code? Kilts for everyone?


    It is still working today.

    Send your Dublin child to a Gaelscoil and he won't have to mix with any of those Eastern Europeans or Africans. Irish has always been useful for people to demonstrate what they are against - nowadays that means immigration and foreigners.

    Very sad but true. Why can't Irishness and the language be positive?


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