Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Shure, it's all a bit of harmless fun. But why pass laws making it compulsory? Why waste millions of euro on it?

There is a logical inconsistency there, You say you have a problem with the gaelic revival and then give what happened after as a reason, How can the galeic revival and its participants be responsible for that?

Waste in your eyes. What makes your opinion any more valid than mine?

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

It is still working today.

Send your Dublin child to a Gaelscoil and he won't have to mix with any of those Eastern Europeans or Africans. Irish has always been useful for people to demonstrate what they are against - nowadays that means immigration and foreigners.

Very sad but true. Why can't Irishness and the language be positive?

Not true at all, Lies and slander I would say.
Who uses the language like that, I never have,
I have yet to meet someone who had racism as a reason to support Irish, Indicators suggest Immigrants are actually doing better at learning Irish than Irish people in general.

Surely people who send their children to Fee paying schools are equally if not more racist. :rolleyes:

What makes you think Irish isent positive, I am planning a big Irish language initiative in UL, One of the first places I am going to for help is the International society. That you want to believe Irish language enthusiasts are racist speaks more about your own prejudices than it dose about Irish.:(:rolleyes:

caseyann

deise go deo wrote: »

Not true at all, Lies and slander I would say.
Who uses the language like that, I never have,
I have yet to meet someone who had racism as a reason to support Irish, Indicators suggest Immigrants are actually doing better at learning Irish than Irish people in general.

Surely people who send their children to Fee paying schools are equally if not more racist. :rolleyes:

What makes you think Irish isent positive, I am planning a big Irish language initiative in UL, One of the first places I am going to for help is the International society. That you want to believe Irish language enthusiasts are racist speaks more about your own prejudices than it dose about Irish.:(:rolleyes:

He hasnt a clue,up to the parents where they send their kids and they cant be turned down unless they applied to late.Just ignore the slating of Irish language.Would'nt even debate with the slanderous lies of some who havent got a clue.
Plenty of my friends of many locations of eastern,western,Europe send their kids to school and let them learn Irish.And i happen to know good few who go to all Irish schools.Others opt out.Says a thing or two about wanting to become apart of Irish culture and respect it.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

Not true at all, Lies and slander I would say.
Who uses the language like that, I never have,
I have yet to meet someone who had racism as a reason to support Irish, Indicators suggest Immigrants are actually doing better at learning Irish than Irish people in general.

Surely people who send their children to Fee paying schools are equally if not more racist. :rolleyes:

What makes you think Irish isent positive, I am planning a big Irish language initiative in UL, One of the first places I am going to for help is the International society. That you want to believe Irish language enthusiasts are racist speaks more about your own prejudices than it dose about Irish.:(:rolleyes:

By your username, I assume you are from Waterford and you are now a student in UL. Different down there maybe. I envy you your youth and naivety. I know what I know about Dublin.

I am not saying Irish language enthusiasts are racist. What I am saying is that there are people who send their children to Gaelscoileanna as they know they will not mix with non-Irish who can be up to 30-40% of other local primary schools. The parents who do that don't do it because they are Irish language enthusiasts!

It may be anecdotal and based on conversations with many of those parents but it is real.

There is a bigger point to make. The gaelscoileanna in Dublin have been pointed to as one of the reasons Irish is doing so well and why Irish is so popular and on the way back. Apart from my point above, the extra % for doing the Leaving through Irish also plays a part, even more so since the breakdown into A1, A2, B1 etc. which makes the extra marks more beneficial. Again those parents don't send their children there because they are Irish language enthusiasts.

Bottom line - many reasons to send your child to a Gaelscoil unrelated to whether or not you are an Irish language enthusiast.

Toyota_Avensis

Complete over empasis on the Literature & I cannot understand why the DES has decided that this is the most effective way to teach a language. I would consider myself a keen Irish Speaker with a love and great interest in learning the langage, but with that is coming resentment, at the hand of the excessive amounts of focus on the literature. I'm 2 months into the LC Irish Course and as of yet have yet to use my spoken Irish in the classroom setting (despite the raising of the Oral Value to 40% for LC 2012) All our classtime (5 x 40min blocks are empasised on the huge amount of literature we have to get through. If interested students like me are being drained due to the syllabus, what can we expect of those who struggle?! Also, the standard of spoken Irish in our Honours Class is terrible. Its a poor reflection on what the Government has to say for the Irish Course right through Primary & Second Level. In my opinion, to bring about a bigger love for the language, and compatency in speaking it, more gaelscoileanna need to be brought about. Any child I've spoken to who attended the Gaelscoileanna, have left it with next to 100% fluency but have been forced to join into English Medium Second Level Education and lose their Gaeilge, very quick. The Government needs to create more outlets for speaking Irish if it is to survive. Sorry for staggered post, rant over.

caseyann

Toyota_Avensis wrote: »

Complete over empasis on the Literature & I cannot understand why the DES has decided that this is the most effective way to teach a language. I would consider myself a keen Irish Speaker with a love and great interest in learning the langage, but with that is coming resentment, at the hand of the excessive amounts of focus on the literature. I'm 2 months into the LC Irish Course and as of yet have yet to use my spoken Irish in the classroom setting (despite the raising of the Oral Value to 40% for LC 2012) All our classtime (5 x 40min blocks are empasised on the huge amount of literature we have to get through. If interested students like me are being drained due to the syllabus, what can we expect of those who struggle?! Also, the standard of spoken Irish in our Honours Class is terrible. Its a poor reflection on what the Government has to say for the Irish Course right through Primary & Second Level. In my opinion, to bring about a bigger love for the language, and compatency in speaking it, more gaelscoileanna need to be brought about. Any child I've spoken to who attended the Gaelscoileanna, have left it with next to 100% fluency but have been forced to join into English Medium Second Level Education and lose their Gaeilge, very quick. The Government needs to create more outlets for speaking Irish if it is to survive. Sorry for staggered post, rant over.

That is so true!

Toyota_Avensis

Continuing from my Previous Rant, tá bron orm ach seo mo scéalsa, as part of the ''10 Year Plan'' thing which the Government is supposedly implamenting to create a more bilingual society, I think it needs to look at the Education System. The government could offer grant incentives to existing schools (particularly Country ones, as they seem to be the areas lacking in gaelscoileanna) to convert to gaelscoil over a time frame to ensure it is sufficient to teach through Irish. Like, supposedly, Teachers are 'fluent' in Irish anyway in the Primary Schools, so surely giving them realistic targets to spruce up their Gaeilge would be benificial for everyone, and certainly doable. Couldn't our future generation get their Irish in the School and English in the home?! Particularly, Second Level Education needs attention. the Irish Course in the English Medium Schools needs some kind of reform and more Second Level Irish Medium Education should be provided, which could be brought about aswel by offering schools incentives. Nowadays, committees have to fight/raise funs/prove interest and jump through a series of loops to get a gaelscoil in their area, perhaps the turning to existing schools for change is another option?! My two cents.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

By your username, I assume you are from Waterford and you are now a student in UL.

Are you stalking me?:P

Yep right on both counts.:)

Different down there maybe. I envy you your youth and naivety. I know what I know about Dublin.

I was in Dublin last weekend with CnaG doing a training course for running an Irish society.
Fantastic bunch of people.

I am not saying Irish language enthusiasts are racist. What I am saying is that there are people who send their children to Gaelscoileanna as they know they will not mix with non-Irish who can be up to 30-40% of other local primary schools. The parents who do that don't do it because they are Irish language enthusiasts!

It may be anecdotal and based on conversations with many of those parents but it is real.

Yes it is possible that for some racism is a factor for their choosing to send their children to a Gaelscoil.
To suggest that this is more than a tiny section of those who go to these schools is wrong however, The gaelscoil movement is not racist, nor are those who support it.
Bringing Racism up as a real factor in the success of the gaelscoils is a gross distortion of reality, It is not the fault of the Irish language or the Gaelscoil movement that a minute section of people who send their kids their may have racist motivations, they are not guilty by association.

There is a bigger point to make. The gaelscoileanna in Dublin have been pointed to as one of the reasons Irish is doing so well and why Irish is so popular and on the way back. Apart from my point above, the extra % for doing the Leaving through Irish also plays a part, even more so since the breakdown into A1, A2, B1 etc. which makes the extra marks more beneficial. Again those parents don't send their children there because they are Irish language enthusiasts.

Bottom line - many reasons to send your child to a Gaelscoil unrelated to whether or not you are an Irish language enthusiast.

Indeed that is also a factor, However that people choose to send their kids to schools that give them a better chance of success is hardly a bad thing, The gaelscoil movement is a great sign of the increasing popularity of Irish,

While there are factors other than love of the Language at play the fact remains that the gaelscoil movement has gone from strength to strength over the past 30 years and currently demand exceeds supply for places in these schools.

deise go deo

Toyota_Avensis wrote: »

Complete over empasis on the Literature & I cannot understand why the DES has decided that this is the most effective way to teach a language. I would consider myself a keen Irish Speaker with a love and great interest in learning the langage, but with that is coming resentment, at the hand of the excessive amounts of focus on the literature. I'm 2 months into the LC Irish Course and as of yet have yet to use my spoken Irish in the classroom setting (despite the raising of the Oral Value to 40% for LC 2012) All our classtime (5 x 40min blocks are empasised on the huge amount of literature we have to get through. If interested students like me are being drained due to the syllabus, what can we expect of those who struggle?! Also, the standard of spoken Irish in our Honours Class is terrible. Its a poor reflection on what the Government has to say for the Irish Course right through Primary & Second Level. In my opinion, to bring about a bigger love for the language, and compatency in speaking it, more gaelscoileanna need to be brought about. Any child I've spoken to who attended the Gaelscoileanna, have left it with next to 100% fluency but have been forced to join into English Medium Second Level Education and lose their Gaeilge, very quick. The Government needs to create more outlets for speaking Irish if it is to survive. Sorry for staggered post, rant over.

Dont blame the Language, Blame the Dpt of education.;)

I was the same way, I disliked Irish in school, Only did pass and made a compleat hash of paper 2.:o
Still as soon as i was finished the LC and the pressure was gone I found my self buying Irish books(children's books) And watching TG4 more than I ever had before,
The education system is so bad that not only dose it not promote an Interest in Irish in people, but it dose its best to stamp it out in people who already have an interest.:mad:

All I can say is stick in there, It wont get much worse,(maybe more tedious)
You will be able to look back in a few years and shake your head and wonder what the hell the point of it was.
Just try to see the good in Irish beyond the classroom, Its there, trust me.:)

cyclopath2001

caseyann wrote: »

Would'nt even debate with the slanderous lies of some who havent got a clue.

Like when you claimed that the English imposed the death penalty for speaking Irish?

caseyann wrote: »

Plenty of my friends of many locations of eastern,western,Europe send their kids to school and let them learn Irish.

Why would they do this? It's not their native language?

senordingdong

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's what the Gaelic Revival tried to do, harnessing anti-English sentiment, creating 'Gaelic' sports (members of the 'occupying forces' excluded), inventing St Patrick's Day and hyping up Irish mythology.

Now, what religion would you combine it with? Catholicism?

And the dress code? Kilts for everyone?

No, just try to bring simplist Irish (speaking) matters to frontlines of every day life.
Like my idea with roadsigns and place names.

Everybody already knows where they live so there would be no confusion, then in ten years or so, they would only be refferred to as their Irish names.

Just a small example.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Like when you claimed that the English imposed the death penalty for speaking Irish?

Like when you claimed the Gaelic revival was akin to Nazism?
People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones;)

Enkidu

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's what the Gaelic Revival tried to do, harnessing anti-English sentiment, .... inventing St Patrick's Day and hyping up Irish mythology.

Sorry, the historical inaccuracy of this is terrible. The Gaelic revival did not invent St. Patrick's day, I don't know where you got that.

Rebelheart

Godge wrote: »

It is still working today.

Send your Dublin child to a Gaelscoil and he won't have to mix with any of those Eastern Europeans or Africans. Irish has always been useful for people to demonstrate what they are against - nowadays that means immigration and foreigners.

Very sad but true. Why can't Irishness and the language be positive?

And let's not mention all those, by your logic, bigoted sectarian classist wannabe elitists who send their children to fee-paying secondary schools, and get subsidised by €100 million per annum for doing so. Not forgetting they can certainly avoid the dark-skinned ones there. Whoopee!

No, English speakers like yourself could never be racist in their school choices. It's only those (usually highly educated) parents who send their children to gaelscoileanna who would ever think like that.:rolleyes: Oh no, not that we'd think our kids would have an extra advantage through having two languages rather than one. Duh. No, apparently we don't send our children to gaelscoileanna and meánscoileanna for any intellectual or cultural reasons. No, it's not because we are academically ambitious for our children, just as we have been for ourselves.

No, the real motivation for your views is that because we put a value on Irish culture which you patently don't share, you must attribute racist shít to us. Meanwhile you send your children to the local sectarian Roman Church-run school where kids are forced to learn religion and speak in the English language. And you lecture us on ethical choices because we wouldn't lower ourselves to that backward "follow the crowd" bland shít? There's no room for difference in your world.

The sheer prejudice and bitterness of your post is voluminous.

cyclopath2001

senordingdong wrote: »

Everybody already knows where they live so there would be no confusion, then in ten years or so, they would only be refferred to as their Irish names.

Would people be obliged to change their personal names? And what of towns that don't want to change their names? Would you impose your cultural revolution on them?

ekkidu wrote:

Sorry, the historical inaccuracy of this is terrible. The Gaelic revival did not invent St. Patrick's day, I don't know where you got that.

The feast of St Patrick goes back a long way in Ireland's Christian era of Irish history, but the parades and faux-traditional costumes are comparatively recent imports from the US.

caseyann

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Like when you claimed that the English imposed the death penalty for speaking Irish?

I didnt make it up,people were threatened if caught speaking Irish shot or what ever floated their boat went.

Why would they do this? It's not their native language?

Because some people actually think Irish is worth their kids knowing and revere in their kids learning the language f the People who have given them a home.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Would people be obliged to change their personal names? And what of towns that don't want to change their names? Would you impose your cultural revolution on them?

In my view people should have the right to choose the name they want to be known by, Anglisizing someones name is a terrible thing to do, Im sure you agree, By the same logic, if someone chooses to be known by their English name then that should be respected.

The feast of St Patrick goes back a long way in Ireland's Christian era of Irish history, but the parades and faux-traditional costumes are comparatively recent imports from the US.

So Lá Féile Padráig was not invented by the gaelic revival and nor were the parades, they came from america. So whats your point then?
You continually argue that there was something wrong with the promotion of our native culture, but you have yet to give an example or evidence, What is your problem with Irish?

round tower huntsman

no. irish is popular again, thank god. i use it daily with my own kids(although it is at their level,im fcuked when they hit secondry). i use a mix as gaelige and some as bearla,mostly bearla to my shame. some would like to see it die out. i love to hear it, especially in natural use. i heard two carpenters on a site one day ag caint as gaelige, they were giving out,cursing telling each other what to do all as gaelige, magical.
for yrs the west brit gang tried to make pride in our national tongue a joke but thankfully they've been seen to be the laughing stock.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

the parades, they came from america. So whats your point then?
You continually argue that there was something wrong with the promotion of our native culture, but you have yet to give an example or evidence, What is your problem with Irish?

I am trying to figure out where the 'native' is what you call 'our native culture'. What parts are authentic and what parts are invented?

AlexderFranke

I have heard, too, that some parents choose a Gaelscoil because of fewer children of immigrant roots. With regard to this topic, I have found an interesting article. I have pasted a part of it here. If you would like to read the whole article, I have pasted the URL, too.

Chuala mé chomh maith go roghnaíonn roinnt tuismitheoirí Gaelscoil de réir na méide níos lú de pháistí le fréamh imirceoireachta. Maidir leis na topaice seo, fuair mé alt spéisiúíl. Chuir mé isteach cuid den alt anseo. Más maith libh an alt iomlán a léamh, chuir mé isteach an URL freisin.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1853128,00.html
In places like Ennis, a town in southwest Ireland, immigrants are beginning to claim those assets for themselves. Like Lucan, the town’s population has also radically diversified over the past decade. Schools have shifted gears accordingly, setting aside a minimum of 5% of places to foreign-born students. The town's Irish language school, Gaelscoil Mhíchíl Cíosóg, surpassed the figure this year, with 10% of its admissions made up of children of immigrant parents — Nigerian, Polish, Dutch, Ghanaian and Spanish among them. Initially, says principal Dónal O hAiniféin, the school was not an obvious choice for immigrants, but as their communities put down roots, "They tell me, 'My child is Irish, I'd like him or her to be fluent in the Irish language.'" Schools around Ennis are now discussing raising the required minority admission rate to 25% in 2009.
As targets like these continue to be pursued nationwide, it may, in fact, be the new Ireland that helps this old language grow. Michal Boleslav Mechura, a 33-year-old resident of Dublin who immigrated from the Czech Republic ten years ago, became fluent in Irish and finds it useful in his own integration process. "People don't realize I'm not from here when I speak in Irish," Mechura says. "A lot of Irish people who speak Irish speak it as a second language and so we are all on the same footing. I fit in better in Irish."

This certainly is not only of relevance for Ireland, but for all areas with lesser used indigenous languages and movements to preserve them, for example Wales or Provence. On is clear: Also immigrants should get their own position in the language question.

Go cinnte, níl baint ag an Éireann amháin leis seo, ach ag gach cheantar le teangacha dúichais úsáidte níos lú agus gluaiseachtaí le sábháil iad, mar shampla an Bhreatain Bheag nó an Provence. Sin é go soléir: Ba chóir chomh maith do himirceoirí a mbárúil a thógáil i gceist na teanga.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I am trying to figure out where the 'native' is what you call 'our native culture'. What parts are authentic and what parts are invented?

What are you talking about, Every bit of every culture is invented at some time or another, I would ask what makes something more 'Authentic' in your eyes?





So it would seem that gaelscoils are far from being schools to choose for racist reasons ,they are infact schools to avoid as they are as inclucive as their English medium counterparts.

Why is it that some people are willing to believe anything negative about Irish they hear:rolleyes:

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

What are you talking about, Every bit of every culture is invented at some time or another, I would ask what makes something more 'Authentic' in your eyes?

A tradition that has existed for a half a millennium? St Brigid - yes, Jedword - no.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

A tradition that has existed for a half a millennium? St Brigid - yes, Jedword - no.

Right so only things that have existed with 500 years are authentic?

Must be a *itch posting with a hammer and chisel:pac:

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Right so only things that have existed with 500 years are authentic? Must be a *itch posting with a hammer and chisel:pac:

And the Book of Kells was inked when?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

And the Book of Kells was inked when?

I don't see any illumination in your post, Am I to conclude that you are not a monk using a quill and as such are somehow less authentic?


I really dont understand your point, Show me any culture that has not changed over the past 500 years, Why would Irish be any different or less authentic as a result or this?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I really dont understand your point, Show me any culture that has not changed over the past 500 years, Why would Irish be any different or less authentic as a result or this?

The book of Kells, much older than 500 years, was written with quill and ink, not hammer and chisel.

Irish culture has indeed changed and Irish people now speak English. It's a central part of our cultural identity. Why do you want to roll back history?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The book of Kells, much older than 500 years, was written with quill and ink, not hammer and chisel.

Sheesh talk about pedantic, Do you not get the point i was making? Its called artistic licence.:rolleyes:

Irish culture has indeed changed and Irish people now speak English. It's a central part of our cultural identity. Why do you want to roll back history?

I don't want to roll back History, I want a future where Irish is more widely spoken.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I don't want to roll back History, I want a future where Irish is more widely spoken.

Why?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Why?

Why Not,
It is a beautiful language, It is a link to our past. Something that makes us different from the rest of the world, Part of who we are,

Is their any reason for the French to continue speaking French?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Why Not,
It is a beautiful language, It is a link to our past. Something that makes us different from the rest of the world, Part of who we are,

So you do want to bring back the past? And what's this about wanting to be different from the rest of the world, what's that about, really? There are many ways of being Irish, and the current version of the Irish language is only one small attribute.

deise go deo wrote: »

Is their any reason for the French to continue speaking French?

Or for the Irish to continue speaking English?