Is Irish a dead language?

cyclopath2001 · 22-10-2010 5:51pm

deise go deo wrote: »

What has that to do with what I said, That they recieve support from the state dosent mean they dont exist.

But, if Irish is really as alive as you claim it to be, they would exist and thrive without state subsidy, solely supported and funded by Irish-speakers.

deise go deo wrote: »

I said that there is more Irish language media now than there has ever been before, Do you disagree with that?

I don't know whether or not to agree or disagree. I have not noticed any new media. But, I live in a English-speaking part of the country.

deise go deo · 22-10-2010 6:02pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But, if Irish is really as alive as you claim it to be, they would exist and thrive without state subsidy, solely supported and funded by Irish-speakers.

Is their any minority language that has the same noumbers as Irish that has this?

I don't know whether or not to agree or disagree. I have not noticed any new media. But, I live in a English-speaking part of the country.

TG4 is quite new and doing a good job for the small funding they get, Raidio Rí Rá, Gaelscéal etc.

Scofflaw · 22-10-2010 6:11pm

Rebelheart wrote: »

It could be argued that it's "only one small attribute" in your world precisely because defining it as such suits your present personal intellectual and cultural limitations exquisitely well.

...and that's all from Rebelheart for a week, because infracting his various insults and jeers on this thread is giving me RSI.

moderately,
Scofflaw

cyclopath2001 · 22-10-2010 6:25pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Is their any minority language that has the same noumbers as Irish that has this?

It's either viable or it's not.

deise go deo wrote: »

TG4 is quite new and doing a good job for the small funding they get, Raidio Rí Rá, Gaelscéal etc.

With state money and allowed to broadcast some non-Irish langauge material.

How about independent Irish language radio stations, any numbers?

Ald · 22-10-2010 6:51pm

Maybe the moderators could balance the arguement a bit?!

Comparisons have been made between Irish language and Nazism. That to me is offensive, extreme and belittles both the Irish and those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

If the moderators could please clean up the extremist and offensive 'pop history' views peddaled on this thread it would be much appreciated and about time it was done too!

Go 'aibh maith agat!

deise go deo · 22-10-2010 6:52pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's either viable or it's not.

With state money and allowed to broadcast some non-Irish langauge material.

How about independent Irish language radio stations, any numbers?

BBC

Well its not supported by our state anyway, Will that do?

oscarBravo · 22-10-2010 6:57pm

Ald wrote: »

Maybe the moderators could balance the arguement a bit?!

Comparisons have been made between Irish language and Nazism. That to me is offensive, extreme and belittles both the Irish and those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

If the moderators could please clean up the extremist and offensive 'pop history' views peddaled on this thread it would be much appreciated and about time it was done too!

Go 'aibh maith agat!

Our role is not to remove posts you disagree with. If you feel a post breaches the charter, report it. If it's within the charter and you disagree with it, refute it.

This discussion of moderation is off-topic, so please don't reply to this post. PM me if you have an issue with it.

Eliot Rosewater · 22-10-2010 7:40pm

deise go deo wrote: »

If people pay tax for an education system and want Irish as part of that system then should it not be?

This must be the third time I've said this, but I'll repeat it one more time: I'm not suggesting Irish be removed. I'm suggesting it be made non-mandatory.

If you're using tax a reason for keeping it mandatory, then frankly I think that's just grasping at straws.

deise go deo wrote: »

There is nothing subjective about the merrit of learning a second Language and as something to have on your CV Irish opens up many Job Oppertunities, R na G, Irish Teaching, TG4, Jobs in Gaelthachts etc

Yes, or we could learn Spanish, get all the same linguistic benefits, except this time we open up communication with circa 500 million people. Imagine the job opportunities there. It does not make mathematical sense to learn Irish to get a job.

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes and in ten years time we will be looking at threads on how Philosophy is a waste of time in Schools, Students dont want to do it, Waste of money, Let them pay for it themselvs if they want to learn it, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

Did I suggest philosophy be made compulsory?

cyclopath2001 · 22-10-2010 7:51pm

Ald wrote: »

Comparisons have been made between Irish language and Nazism. That to me is offensive, extreme and belittles both the Irish and those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

You're being very mischievous. The comparison I made was between the Irish Nationalist Revival and the German one (e,.g. Naziism), pointing out the dangers of over-romanticising past history and whipping up sectarian sentiment for political ends. At no time did I compare the Irish language on its own to Naziism. And, I should point out that I was referring to the general outcome of national revivals, of which Naziism is admittedly the most extreme and destructive example.

To what extent do you think the Irish language and nationalism are related?

del_c · 22-10-2010 8:35pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You're being very mischievous. The comparison I made was between the Irish Nationalist Revival and the German one (e,.g. Naziism), pointing out the dangers of over-romanticising past history and whipping up sectarian sentiment for political ends. At no time did I compare the Irish language on its own to Naziism. And, I should point out that I was referring to the general outcome of national revivals, of which Naziism is admittedly the most extreme and destructive example.

To what extent do you think the Irish language and nationalism are related?

Yes, but you are not being honest on this one, because as I outlined to you already the Gaelic cultural Revival movement is actually comparable to the revival of the German cultural identity, which happened almost 100 years before Nazism. Similar movements happened all over Europe at the time; the Balkans, the Italian Rissorgemento, Scandinavia, the building of an American identity. I would concede that these movements are comparable to the Gaelic Revival.

BUT Nazism did not derive from the german cultural revival directly, rather it misused certain mythologies contained therein for its own convuluted agenda. Were the Brothers Grimm Nazis? Was Beethoven a NAZI?...No obviously not. Look at those primarily involved in the Gaelic Cultural Revival movement and apart from Pearse and a handful of others you will not even find a great deal of crossover between the physical force tradition and the cultural revival tradition.

And even of this limited grouping, there is NO evidence of the key identifying ideologies of NAZISM in this movement, its primary one being a misintepretation of genetics to form the idea of a master race. Most of the leading lights in the Gaelic Cultural Movement (like everyone else on this planet, were of mixed stock).

It's not enough to say, well some of them were nationlistic and Nazis were nationalistic too, therefore the whole movement is comparable to Nazism.

To not concede this is to deliberately leave an outrageous and offensive slur in place, and is out of order IMHO.

In addition to this, you espoused a theory earlier about Irish being part of a weaker civilisation than the Anglo saxon one, therefore our language and culture was a pushover, and more or less deserved to be exterminated. This makes you the only one in the whole discussion to have posted anything Hitler would recognise as his own.

deise go deo · 22-10-2010 8:49pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You're being very mischievous. The comparison I made was between the Irish Nationalist Revival and the German one (e,.g. Naziism), pointing out the dangers of over-romanticising past history and whipping up sectarian sentiment for political ends. At no time did I compare the Irish language on its own to Naziism. And, I should point out that I was referring to the general outcome of national revivals, of which Naziism is admittedly the most extreme and destructive example.

To what extent do you think the Irish language and nationalism are related?

You compared the Gaelic revival to Nazism, That is you compared the revival of the Irish language to Nazism, Nazism its self was not the product of a national cultural revival, Rather it was bourn from a disastrus economic situation and a political past which made many people in Germanny all to ready to blame the rest of the world for their problems.

Your comparision dose not stack up and is offencive in the extream:mad:

cyclopath2001 · 22-10-2010 8:51pm

del_c wrote: »

In addition to this, you espoused a theory earlier about Irish being part of a weaker civilisation than the Anglo saxon one, therefore our language and culture was a pushover, and more of less deserved to be exterminated.

Who said: 'more of less deserved to be exterminated'?. Quote please?

deise go deo · 22-10-2010 8:54pm

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Yes, or we could learn Spanish, get all the same linguistic benefits, except this time we open up communication with circa 500 million people. Imagine the job opportunities there. It does not make mathematical sense to learn Irish to get a job.

The point you seam to miss is that people actually want to be able to speak Irish, Not manny really want to speak spanish.
If it dose not make sence to learn Irish to get a job in this country then it definatly dose not make sence to learn another language.

It dose make sence to learn Irish to get a job, There are a lot of jobs that need Irish, There is a limited pool of people to fill these jobs therefore an Irish speaker has more jobs open to them than an English speaking Monoglot with Equal qualifications otherwise.

deise go deo · 22-10-2010 8:55pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Who said: 'more of less deserved to be exterminated'?. Quote please?

Do you deny claiming that Gaelic culture was a failure?

cyclopath2001 · 22-10-2010 8:57pm

deise go deo wrote: »

The point you seam to miss is that people actually want to be able to speak Irish,

How many? Please quote figures from an independent source.

deise go deo wrote: »

It dose make sence to learn Irish to get a job, There are a lot of jobs that need Irish, .

Would they be the jobs created by the 'Official Languages Act'?

deise go deo wrote: »

Do you deny claiming that Gaelic culture was a failure?

If it had not failed, we would all be speaking Irish.

Once more - where did I say ''more of less deserved to be exterminated'? Do you admit putting words in my mouth?

deise go deo · 22-10-2010 9:02pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How many? Please quote figures from an independent source.

When you respond to my last sourse with one of your own, Untill then arguing with you is pointless as you wont back up your position with anything.

Would they be the jobs created by the 'Official Languages Act'?

They would be all jobs requiring Irish, not just ones created by the official languages act.

What is the difference between a public sector job and a private sector one? Are people working for the state not in Real employment?

deise go deo · 22-10-2010 9:04pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

If it had not failed, we would all be speaking Irish.

You claimed that Gaelic culture failed and that it was natural for the Stronger british culture to replace it, That kind of logic is straight out of Mien Kampf

Once more - where did I say ''more of less deserved to be exterminated'? Do you admit putting words in my mouth?

No I dont as I was not the person who posted that.

cyclopath2001 · 22-10-2010 9:17pm

deise go deo wrote: »

you wont back up your position with anything.

You make statements without any credible evidence and then challenge others to prove you wrong. Ho-hum.

deise go deo wrote: »

They would be all jobs requiring Irish, not just ones created by the official languages act.

What jobs would they be?

deise go deo wrote: »

What is the difference between a public sector job and a private sector one? Are people working for the state not in Real employment?

The Irish-language public sector jobs don't demonstrate a viable Irish language community capable of sustaining Irish-language jobs.

Now, a 100% private-sector, Irish-language newspaper, making a healthy profit from Irish speakers buying it would be a very good indicator of what you want to assert.

del_c · 22-10-2010 9:37pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Occupied? Nobody overthrew the Irish government because before the English arrived there was no government. Irish civilisation had failed, that's why Ireland was such a push-over. Ireland eventually became part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This was the first modern, organised government of Ireland which introduced a national law and order, currency, taxation, roads, water, sanitation, rail travel, and modern ports.
QUOTE]

So therefore our language, culture are unworthy of preservation...being that of the Untermensch....

cyclopath2001 · 22-10-2010 9:44pm

del_c wrote: »

So therefore our language, culture are unworthy of preservation..

They're your words not mine. And I think you're wrong.

Irish language and culture is certainly worthy of preservation. But to do this we have to free it from artifacts such as the Official Languages Act, compulsory Irish at school and subsidies for normal economic activities merely because they are carried out in Irish. We also need to separate the facts from the myths.

eddyc · 22-10-2010 9:44pm

del_c wrote: »

So therefore our language, culture are unworthy of preservation...being that of the Untermensch....

Of course they're worthy of preservation. But what about respecting the culture that we have today, whats wrong with Irish people who speak only English, is this not as valid a cultural identity as an Irish speaking one, and if so why does everyone have to learn Irish?

del_c · 22-10-2010 9:52pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

They're your words not mine. And I think you're wrong.

Irish language and culture is certainly worthy of preservation. But to do this we have to free it from artifacts such as the Official Languages Act, compulsory Irish at school and subsidies for normal economic activities merely because they are carried out in Irish. We also need to separate the facts from the myths.

I don't believe you hold these views. The fact remains though that is the closest statement to Nazism in the whole thread; and it was made by an anti Irish Language support party.

In the light of the rest of my post above, which I have posted twice, without a response, would you not agree that is an unfair slur to compare Nazism to the Irish Langauge Revival movement....seeing as how the are dislocated in time and form from one another.

I'd ask you again to withdraw this slur.

Thanks

cyclopath2001 · 22-10-2010 10:10pm

del_c wrote: »

I don't believe you hold these views.

Because for your position to survive you need an 'enemy' who does not 'support' Irish the way you'd like it.

del_c wrote: »

The fact remains though that is the closest statement to Nazism in the whole thread;

How can you deny the fact that most of us speak English and don't live in the traditional Gaelic ways after the country was massively overwhelmed by another culture? Where on Earth do you live?

del_c wrote: »

and it was made by an anti Irish Language support party.

Is this a new political party?

del_c wrote: »

In the light of the rest of my post above, which I have posted twice, without a response, would you not agree that is an unfair slur to compare Nazism to the Irish Langauge Revival movement....seeing as how the are dislocated in time and form from one another.

You're spinning this up so that you can wrap yourself in a mantle of moral indignation and avoid discussing the vital signs (or lack thereof) of Irish's health.

deise go deo · 22-10-2010 10:45pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Because for your position to survive you need an 'enemy' who does not 'support' Irish the way you'd like it.

You dont support Irish, To claim something needs enemy's to survive is a bit odd.

How can you deny the fact that most of us speak English and don't live in the traditional Gaelic ways after the country was massively overwhelmed by another culture? Where on Earth do you live?

You claimed that Irish Civilization had Failed and used the Invasion and Occupation of Ireland by Britain as evidence for that, ie that Britain was stronger militarily meant that their culture was superior,
Sentiments to similar effect were expressed in Mine Kampf.

Is this a new political party?

No, There isent a political party in The country that would hold those views, They would be unelectable.

You're spinning this up so that you can wrap yourself in a mantle of moral indignation and avoid discussing the vital signs (or lack thereof) of Irish's health.

You said the revival of the irish language was comparable to nazism, What is being spun? you said that.
It is both logically wrong and deeply offensive to make such unfounded claims.

Sardonicat · 23-10-2010 1:30am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

That is the attitude of a language fascist. (and is fairly common with non-native but not with native speakers).
Would you consider a foreigner with broken English to be "mangling" the language.
One of the most important things in language learning is confidence and people should be encouraged and never scorned, no matter how much they "mangle" their attempts.

I wasn't referring to people who make a genuine attempt to speak Irish. I'm talking about people who keep talking at you in appalling Irish and refuse to allow you to respond in English, even when you tell them you can't speak Irish. (I understand more than I can speak and I can tell when someone knows less Irish than me). I had one such conversation with a guy who claimed to be a FLUENT Irish speaker who could barely get past ---- is anim dom. When I said I couldn't understand him he started shouting at me (forgive my lack of fadas) TA. ME. AG. CAINT. AS. GAELIGE. as if that would help me to understand him better. The guy hardly had a word yet claimed to be fluent. Thats what I'm talking about.

Now, I could get to France and manage to get from A to B and get fed with the few words of French I have, but I don't claim to be able to speak French fluently and would look a bit stupid if I tried.

deise go deo · 23-10-2010 2:28am

Sardonicat wrote: »

I wasn't referring to people who make a genuine attempt to speak Irish. I'm talking about people who keep talking at you in appalling Irish and refuse to allow you to respond in English, even when you tell them you can't speak Irish. (I understand more than I can speak and I can tell when someone knows less Irish than me). I had one such conversation with a guy who claimed to be a FLUENT Irish speaker who could barely get past ---- is anim dom. When I said I couldn't understand him he started shouting at me (forgive my lack of fadas) TA. ME. AG. CAINT. AS. GAELIGE. as if that would help me to understand him better. The guy hardly had a word yet claimed to be fluent. Thats what I'm talking about.

Now, I could get to France and manage to get from A to B and get fed with the few words of French I have, but I don't claim to be able to speak French fluently and would look a bit stupid if I tried.

Well honestly I have never come across this, I try not to judge others ability in Irish, My own is not that good but I have never met some one who confused the cupla focal with being fluent.
Must have been an Interesting experience, there are not many people like that.

cyclopath2001 · 23-10-2010 8:16am

deise go deo wrote: »

You dont support Irish, To claim something needs enemy's to survive is a bit odd.

You seem to think that your position and the interestest of the Irish language are one and the same thing. That's a major conceit on your part. I said that your position needs 'enemies' to survive.

deise go deo wrote: »

You claimed that Irish Civilization had Failed and used the Invasion and Occupation of Ireland by Britain as evidence for that,

Wrong again. The evidence is that we don't speak Irish and don't have a civilisation distinct from that of our neighbours. The cultural invasions (by Christianity,the Normans and the English) and the indigenous civilisation's inability to retain its original nature explain how this happened. It's not a question of what 'deserved to happen', it is what happened. Are you trying to reverse history by making everyone learn Irish once more? Wrong reason.

deise go deo wrote: »

No, There isent a political party in The country that would hold those views, They would be unelectable.

It's not about wiping out the langauge that you deeply love. It's about reconfiguring how it is supported and doing so in a cost-efficient and effective way.

Cú Giobach · 23-10-2010 8:38am

Sardonicat wrote: »

I wasn't referring to people who make a genuine attempt to speak Irish. I'm talking about people who keep talking at you in appalling Irish and refuse to allow you to respond in English, even when you tell them you can't speak Irish. (I understand more than I can speak and I can tell when someone knows less Irish than me). I had one such conversation with a guy who claimed to be a FLUENT Irish speaker who could barely get past ---- is anim dom. When I said I couldn't understand him he started shouting at me (forgive my lack of fadas) TA. ME. AG. CAINT. AS. GAELIGE. as if that would help me to understand him better. The guy hardly had a word yet claimed to be fluent. Thats what I'm talking about.

Now, I could get to France and manage to get from A to B and get fed with the few words of French I have, but I don't claim to be able to speak French fluently and would look a bit stupid if I tried.

You must know some pretty strange people.

del_c · 23-10-2010 10:27am

Originally Posted by del_c
In what way is Irish language revival comparable to Nazism? Or would you like to withdraw this slur?

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Both used romantic revival of past history and culture, created racial stereotypes and encouraged sectarianism. Populist sentiment was whipped up and people were killed and burnt out of their houses on account these feelings. They are comparable, but, fortunately, not equal.
.

If you don't withdraw this, in the face of overwhelming arguments that it is not true, then you're lacking in character, not to admit that you succumbed to hyperbole. I don't mind tackling most of your points, you're a good, stubborn debater, but the statement you made above is a slur, and I, for one would like an apology, to move the debate on from mud-slinging. This is NOT spin to distract from the other points being discussed, I would simply like it corrected / withdrawn or whatever, because it is an insult, based on false premises. Then the debate can move on.

Go raibh maith agat.

Eliot Rosewater · 23-10-2010 10:54am

deise go deo wrote: »

The point you seam to miss is that people actually want to be able to speak Irish.

And? As I said in the post you just read:

This must be the third time I've said this, but I'll repeat it one more time: I'm not suggesting Irish be removed. I'm suggesting it be made non-mandatory.

So I really do completely fail to see your point.

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish speaker has more jobs open to them than an English speaking Monoglot with Equal qualifications otherwise.

Yes, because Mongolot is the only other language Irish children could possibly learn.

Is Irish a dead language?

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